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 Post subject: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Hi Jeep Gurus,
On the highway today for a 350 mile journey, I noticed a vibration in the Jeep that has me concerned. It happens above 55 mph, is most noticeable at 65, and is less but not absent at 70 mph. But it doesn't always do it. I think it is a rotational vibration, sort of like one of the tires is out of balance or is out of round. It sounds like a helicopter off in the distance and I can feel it in the floor. (Moreso on the passenger's floor.) I was thinking of having the tires rebalanced but I want to know what else I should check for.

Pertinent info:
I have just 2000 miles on my new 245/75/16 Duratracs.
I have the 4 inch JBA lift.
The lugnuts are not loose. (checked that)
I am not sure if it was making the noise/vibration before the new tires. I certainly had a lot of noise and vibration from a punctured, plugged, and patched tire so it would be hard to say.

Any ideas? Bushings? Ball joints? Other things to check?

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:58 pm 
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I'd rotate the tires and see if it changes. Sometimes driving next to wall along a highway with the windows down will help hear noises better. A mechanical problem would have gotten worse on 350 mile trip.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:43 pm 
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How many miles on the truck?
Any changes when you decelerate?
When I had my front wheel bearings replaced, it sounded like that, but only at low speeds. That was at 40K I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:24 pm 
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No difference accelerating/decelerating, or coasting (which I think rules out the driveline)
The noise may be a bit louder now (or I'm just very aware of it), but I don't hear it at all at slow speeds.
Rotating the tires is a good idea. I'm at a fancy hotel for a conference this week and they would probably frown upon me doing that in their parking lot. :) But it is also a 350 mile trip home on Friday, so we'll see if anything changes then.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Is it possible you chunked a tire? I had a bad vibration for a while after an accident and realized that I had torn a nice chunk of rubber from one of the tires tread. granted a also had a small chunk of the rim that had been beaten up pretty badly as well but it made the same noise you're referring to

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Update:
I drove about 25 miles today and here are some more observations:
I think it's the passenger's side front making the vibration.
It doesn't do it all the time.
When it does, I think it feels more severe than it used to be. Bad vibes today at 55 mph.
I jacked the Jeep up and turned the tire, carefully looking at the tread. It is not chunked (and it is practically brand new).
There were no strange sounds as I turned the wheel around.
I was not able to move the tire up and down (ball joints ok?), but I was able to get some movement side to side (I could compress the steering assembly approx 1/2 inch in towards the middle of the Jeep, but there was no rattling sound as I moved it back and forth.
The power steering sounds normal and behaves normally while doing turns in the parking lot and on the highway.
Still not sure where the vibes are coming from. No longer convinced it is a tire balancing issue, since I think an unbalanced tire would vibrate all the time at a certain speed, not happen intermittently and get louder.
Any other thoughts? What should I be looking at next?

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:21 am 
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I know you said you did turns in the parking lot, but did you do them at full lock?
I don't think any movement is good when you jack up the Jeep and wiggle the tires.
Also try the same turns in reverse at full lock.
I used to get some vibes when I had my bearing replaced when I would be going downhill making a slight turn at 35-40 mph.
Have you had a passenger in the Jeep yet to help you out?
You can try to be on the outside while someone else drives it, too.
Good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Check the right CV where it goes onto the intermediate shaft. I had the exact same thing happen to me. It turned out to be a failed spline, I can't even get them apart it's so bad. You should be able to see a slight downward angle on the large diameter of the passenger CV. That has a spline inside it and goes over the intermediate shaft. Mine failed at about 10000 miles and the dealer kept telling me it was the tires, then after the lift, "those big tires". Mine was so worn, you could move it up and down a little bit. It would also be a good idea to pull the CV off and add a little grease to the splines every once and awhile.
Try putting it in 4WD as soon as it starts to vibrate for a few seconds and see if it calms down or stops. If it does then definatley pull it apart for a look.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:19 pm 
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Gageraid wrote:
I know you said you did turns in the parking lot, but did you do them at full lock?
I don't think any movement is good when you jack up the Jeep and wiggle the tires.
Also try the same turns in reverse at full lock.

Yup, I did full lock turns both forward and backward in the parking lot. I can't hear anything out of the ordinary.

Ted15 wrote:
Check the right CV where it goes onto the intermediate shaft. ... Try putting it in 4WD as soon as it starts to vibrate for a few seconds and see if it calms down or stops. If it does then definatley pull it apart for a look.

That is an interesting idea. I didn't try the 4WD thing because it only vibrates at > 50 or 55 mph. 4WD at speed on pavement = bad things happen. :grim:

I drove it from Roanoke, VA back to Philly today. I would say the vibes and noise are a bit worse now, but again it only happens on the highway and it is intermittent (noise & vibration 50-75% of the time, and what I would consider really bad 5-10% of the time). It also changes when I am going around corners. I don't feel it in the steering wheel, so I don't think it's a tie rod. I am now thinking the passenger's side wheel bearing is going bad. What do you all think of that hypothesis? I wheeled it for 8 weeks this summer on rough forest roads and firebreaks, so I guess that could wear out the wheel bearings.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Most of the time a wheel bearing will make more noise turning one way or the other.
If it's doing it mainly on the highway I'd be looking at the CV / Intermediate Shaft first
I assume you've checked the rear ujoints in the rear as well just to make sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:55 pm 
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tommudd wrote:
Most of the time a wheel bearing will make more noise turning one way or the other.
If it's doing it mainly on the highway I'd be looking at the CV / Intermediate Shaft first
I assume you've checked the rear ujoints in the rear as well just to make sure.

Well now you have me scratching my head again. The CV boots are intact and the vibe definitely seems to be on the passengers side (not a rear drive shaft vibe I think, as my XJ had a bad u joint and I know what that feels like). Maybe the intermediate shaft as Ted and you suggest. Can a CV go bad if the boots are still intact? I will see about the rear cv on the front drive shaft too, as KJs have a problem with that sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:38 pm 
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They can look perfectly fine and the splines be gone almost
First one I encountered back several years ago there was no tears in any of the boots/ no more play than normal, all looked good as new. But when we pulled the CV/Intermediate shaft out the splines were basically gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:47 pm 
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lfhoward wrote:
tommudd wrote:
Most of the time a wheel bearing will make more noise turning one way or the other.
If it's doing it mainly on the highway I'd be looking at the CV / Intermediate Shaft first
I assume you've checked the rear ujoints in the rear as well just to make sure.

Well now you have me scratching my head again. The CV boots are intact and the vibe definitely seems to be on the passengers side (not a rear drive shaft vibe I think, as my XJ had a bad u joint and I know what that feels like). Maybe the intermediate shaft as Ted and you suggest. Can a CV go bad if the boots are still intact? I will see about the rear cv on the front drive shaft too, as KJs have a problem with that sometimes.


There isn't anything wrong with my CV's at all. Yes you can have a bad CV while the boot is intact. You can put it in 4wd briefly at around 50, don't leave it there on dry pavement though. I'd just about be willing to bet it's the spline. A quick and easy way to rule out a wheel bearing would be to listen to it with an engineering stethoscope. It's kinda cool, sometimes ou can hear the ball bearings clicking. Obviously, if you hear scraping the bearing is scrap.
Even if you take the axle out and don't find it to be bad, it would be a good opprotunity to put a little grease on the spline.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:43 am 
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Ted/Tom,
Is there a good how-to thread you like that describes replacing the CVs? I found this thread, but am a bit confused by the "remove everything in blue" pic:
http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f202/how-change-front-cv-axle-44548/

And one last question: if I get everything apart, find the splines gone, and swap in a new intermediate shaft or CV, and put it all back together, will I need to get an alignment?
Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:02 pm 
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No alignment needed if replacing the CV/ Intermediate shaft
NOW if you do find the intermediate shaft bad, replace it and the CV . Lube them good as well

Looked at the write up, pretty much what he wrote, don't like the " hit the end of the axle with a big hammer " statement but yes tie rod end, sway bar, upper ball joint etc
I pull everything including the spindle just to make it easier and not screw up the seals/bearings etc. With the adjustable coilovers you can unscrew the clevis and get it out of the way as well

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Now that I'm back in the city and driving at slower speeds, I am not hearing any noise or feeling any vibration from the CV/intermediate shaft. I had the Jeep out for a short jaunt on the highway today and the CV behaved normally. It must be in the process of wearing out, but not quite there yet.

Because this is a very busy time of year at work, I will not have a chance to pull the CV for a while... Does anyone foresee this developing into a safety issue in the short term?

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:58 pm 
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lfhoward wrote:
Now that I'm back in the city and driving at slower speeds, I am not hearing any noise or feeling any vibration from the CV/intermediate shaft. I had the Jeep out for a short jaunt on the highway today and the CV behaved normally. It must be in the process of wearing out, but not quite there yet.

Because this is a very busy time of year at work, I will not have a chance to pull the CV for a while... Does anyone foresee this developing into a safety issue in the short term?


Well if it's a bad wheel bearing... when I could finally "hear" the bearing going, I didn't drive longer than a month before getting it fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Update: The bumping noise has started to happen at slower speeds now, and is more noticeable on the highway at 65 mph. BUT: sometimes it goes away! It seems to be worse when going around a corner to the left, but then again sometimes it's bad going straight too (that is, if/when it happens). It seems to be noticeable in town in the morning after the vehicle has sat all night and it's cold, but disappears as it warms up, and then reappears on the highway at speed. I still haven't had a chance to pull the CV to see what's going on in there yet. I am working this weekend and writing this on my lunch break...

Questions:

1) Can I pull the CV and intermediate shaft and still drive it until I can find a replacement? (and do I need to pull both sides?) I know I would basically be rear-wheel drive for a while, but this could help me rule out the wheel/hub bearing as a cause of the problem.

2) Napa has a part number for the '08-12 CV but no availability. Did anybody else run into this problem? Is this still a dealer only part?

3) What do you think of a low mileage junkyard '08 KK CV if Napa remanned is not a viable option?

Thanks, Jeepers.

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Yes you can drive with the CV/ Intermediate shaft out, just plug up the hole of course so no dirt gets in.
CVs are still dealer as far as I know. Haven't seen where NAPA has them yet
Junkyard on parts like that are a gamble, if you can inspect first then might be another option

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 Post subject: Re: Rotational vibration at 65 mph
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Thank you Tom for the quick response. Mopar CVs are running about $150 on the discount Mopar parts websites, plus shipping and core cost. Here is what I have in my area for junkyard parts, according to car-part.com:

2008
Axle Shaft
Jeep Liberty TESTED $45 Chairman Mike's Truck Parts USA-PA(Philadelphia)

2009
Axle Shaft
Dodge Nitro RH,3.7,AUTO,4X4 Front Axle; R., outer shaft B $50 LKQ - Venice Auto Parts USA-PA(Philadelphia)

At $45-50 not too bad a price. But of course if it's a 60,000-mile used part it will not last long. Nobody has the intermediate/half shafts listed in my area.

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Jeepin By Al 4" Lift Kit
BFG KO2’s 245/75R16
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M116A3 Trailer build thread: viewtopic.php?f=72&t=77997


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