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 Post subject: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Hey guys. New member and just purchased a 2011 kk. Also have a 2000 xj. Yesterday had an interesting happening. Pulled into work, shut off the car and was listening to the radio for about 10-15mins. Noticed I may have been a bit close to the car next to me so I decided to straighten up my park job. Went to turn the key to start, jeep cranks, hit once, and then continued to crank with no start. This happened about another 5 times. Tried taking key out, putting it back in and starting. No change
. I did notice that the electronic throttle control light stayed illuminated throughout the entire cranking cycle. I popped the hood, checked connections to the throttle body, tapped on it a few times, and the jeep fired right up. Whether or not this is a coincidence or not is yet to be seen, but I've had other vehicles that the idle air control valve has failed, vehicle wouldn't start, but tapping on the iac has "fixed" that issue. The way I understand it is that the iac is integrated into the throttle body assembly. Is this a possibility? Has anyone ever had this issue?

Also one other thing. The door unlock button on the key fob is worn out. I doesn't work. The lock button, panic, and back glass pop buttons do work. So usually when I unlock the jeep with the key in the door, when the door is opened, the alarm sounds and the key must be put in the ignition to stop it. I don't know if this is normal or not, but it's been the norm for this thing. Right after I got the jeep running again, I shut it off, locked the doors (which did work which makes me think it's not the wireless control module), unlocked it with the key and the alarm did not sound. I did this about 4 times. Eventually after repeated attempts, the alarm did sound per the norm for this vehicle.

I did hook the scanner to pull codes, and there were no active or stored codes to be found.

I guess I'm confused as to whether or not I should be hunting a key/electrical problem, or a mechanical problem.

Sorry for the book, but I like to be thorough.

Thanks for letting me be a part of the forum and thank you in advance for the help fellas!


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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Do the door unlock OK with the door buttons?
There are several here, and on the KA forum, who have the crank but no start issue when warm.
One KA owner replaced his fuel pump and his issue went away. He is the only one who came back to the KA forum I'm on and let us know how he fixed his problem.
Others have tried PCV valve, crank and cam sensors, IAT sensor, ERG valve, relays, and a few other things. But only 1 person came back with a success story. It is very frustrating when folks ask for assistance and then don't let us know if/how they got it working.
Anyway, Seems to be kinda common with the 3.7.
Tapping on the ETC valve/throttle body is a new thing I have not heard of before.

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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Thank you for the reply. The unlock button on the fob no longer functions (wear issue). The lock, rear glass, and panic buttons function properly. So I I'll report back if and when I do find a solution. So far seems to be working as normal. Haven't had another episode since that one. Cant diagnose if it's not broke. I can understand the groups frustration with a common problem and no reported diagnosis or fix. I'll keep you informed.


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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:42 am 
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That is the main issue. The no start when warm starts off intermittent...
Hopefully someone else will do a fuel pump replacement and their problem will go away as well. Then at least we will have 2 confirmed fuel pump causes.

I was asking about the inside drivers door switch for unlocking. If it works, then the programming and TIPM (computerized fuse box) are functioning OK. The lock/unlock relays are soldered onto the TIPM computer board and are just barely rated for the Amps they draw. A common problem with the TIPM 7 is the lock/unlock relays burn up/melt down, and then proceed to short other components out on the board. Do not repeatedly press the lock and unlock buttons! Or you will be replacing your TIPM.
If the inside door switches are OK then it sounds like you just need to get a new fob.
I got a new "cheap china" fob from E-bay (12.00). Actually I got 3, one for my rig, and 2 for the my step dad's Ram and they all work great.

Back to the other No start issue. The fuel pump relay is also soldered onto the TIPM PCB.
There was a recall for the TIPM 7 fuel pump relays issues by CJD/fiat (after a class action lawsuit), but the KK and KA were not included in that recall. So far no real confirmation the relay is the cause of the no start when warm problem. Because usually the folks with the issue can hear the fuel pump running when first turning the key to the "on" position.

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2.5" Adjust-A-Strut JBA lift, Euro taillights,
Home made; Front Tilt Hood, Roof Rack, RAM Air, & CAI.
ESP Off Switch
Take a ride on the Trō side!

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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:26 am 
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Yes door lock switches all function as they should. The fob is just a had lad. Thanks for the heads up on the relays for the lock/unlock relays. I will certainly not be messing with hitting the key fob buttons repeatedly. The next time it happens, I'll pay close attention to the fuel pump though I recall it priming during this episode. And I'll throw the scanner on it and see what's not jiving. Kind of sucks the relay is soldered to the board. Hell, one relay goes bad it seems the whole tipm needs replaced. What a goofy design. FYI, I've had no issues since this. Not to wish bad on myself, but I kind of wish it would happen again so I can figure it out. I'll keep you posted and thanks again for the reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:21 pm 
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Your welcome. The more info we can gather about this problem the faster we can find a real solution.
There is a check valve to prevent fuel from draining back into the tank from the lines which is integrated into the fuel pump.
Here is one of my theories:
Symptoms; Usually happens on short drives, shut down, then hard to start.
On a short drive the fuel system is on an open loop fueling process. Short drive means it never reaches closed loop fueling.
Open loop fueling means the 'closed loop" check valve is not electronically triggered.
When shut down, a faulty mechanical check valve in the fuel pump does not prevent the liquid fuel from draining back into the tank from the lines.
Upon restart attempt, the fuel lines have heated air/fuel vapor in them (essentially vapor locked). Key turn pressurizes the fuel line, but with air/vapor still trapped in the lines the rig won't start until it is worked out.
That is a theory...

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07 KA Light Khaki, Manual trany.
2.5" Adjust-A-Strut JBA lift, Euro taillights,
Home made; Front Tilt Hood, Roof Rack, RAM Air, & CAI.
ESP Off Switch
Take a ride on the Trō side!

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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:09 am 
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I've have had this problem in the past two years but it became more frequentl in the past month when going to start it it'll crank and It would just keep turning but no start. I thought it was the starter so went underneath and popped it after a couple times that seem to work. But now I'm not sure if it's a starter after reading all the other possibilities. I do have this issue I would say about once in every 20 starts.


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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:11 am 
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Also my check engine light came on and gave me the codes for evap leak. I'm not sure if it's connected to the problem but I will perform a smoke test in the next couple of days. I did have to change the position of my carbon canister on the rear because I had to relocate it for the bumper that I made so I might've pinched a line. However the crank no start problem happen prior all of this to


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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:45 pm 
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The fuel supply sounds like a sound theory. My Xj has a faulty mechanical check valve but all it takes to get it fired is to cycle the key once, back to off, cycle again and then start. That's all it takes to get it fired up. I'm sure the Kk has a much more complex fuel system though. It's not happened to me on short drives. The only time it's done it was when I drove about 20 miles to work (about 30 mins with traffic, long drive to me), shut off for 10 mins, and boom no start. Next time it happens I'm going to get the scanner on it to look at sensors and pull a plug wire to definitively identify if it's an ignition issue, or a fuel delivery issue. Some dudes on a Facebook page said they've had success with changing the crank and cam sensors together, but how the heck can those be intermittent? I have seen that a jk can run without crank sensor signal which absolutely blew my mind, but it apparently can't run without cam sensor signal. Look up the guy on YouTube I think it's south main auto, he does a liberty crank but no start diagnosis. Like an hour long 2 part video in which the thing runs off cam sensor signal alone. Mind blowing. I've never seen such a thing but I'll keep you guys in the loop if I find something out with this goofiness.


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 Post subject: Re: Crank but no start.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Drive time is not really important. Its operating temp that is the key to closed loop fueling.
But a 30 minute drive should get your rig to operating temp.
It may be a combination of temp at time of restart try and bleed down of the fuel line.
If the rig is in closed loop fueling mode and does not cool down enough to trigger open loop before a restart attempt, then a key cycle to prime the fuel line will not work.
Opposite theory but same result.

With others they key/problem is usually if they just sit/wait for 10-15 minutes the rig starts fine... Not really enough time to do any real diag before it will start OK.
That is the real problem with trying to trouble shoot this.

I have an 85 Cherokee with a bad check valve. Like you I have been doing the "key dance" now for 8 years, and it always starts.

_________________
07 KA Light Khaki, Manual trany.
2.5" Adjust-A-Strut JBA lift, Euro taillights,
Home made; Front Tilt Hood, Roof Rack, RAM Air, & CAI.
ESP Off Switch
Take a ride on the Trō side!

Image


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