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 Post subject: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Just when I was getting optimistic we had fixed the problem, power steering went out today. Nothing but road driving since replacing the rack about 2 months ago. This is now the 4th rack to fail in 10 months. I really at a crossroads here guys I feel like I've exhausted all my options.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:45 pm 
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ElCuervo52 wrote:
Just when I was getting optimistic we had fixed the problem, power steering went out today. Nothing but road driving since replacing the rack about 2 months ago. This is now the 4th rack to fail in 10 months. I really at a crossroads here guys I feel like I've exhausted all my options.

This really sucks. Sorry to hear this, ElCuervo. It's just beyond bad luck.

Did the power steering pump end up getting replaced at the same time you replaced rack #3? Seems like one theory that was batted around back then was that the rack was being over-pressurized by a possibly defective ps pump and blowing out the seals. I don't remember if you were able to eliminate that or not. Could the ps cooler behind the bumper be not working or clogged, and overheating the rack? Trying to think of something that might be a common factor to all 4 blown racks. This is not anywhere normal behavior for the KK. I've heard of guys blowing racks off-road but not like this, on pavement while mall crawling. It just doesn't make sense. There has to be a reason.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:05 am 
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I replaced the ps pump with the 3rd rack


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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:31 am 
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I literally don’t know what to do. Do I sell it? How would I even sell it if it doesn’t work? I have an appointment with another dealership Saturday to try and fix the ESP, do I have them just replace it again for 1500$ what’s the sense in that if it’s just gonna break again? Do I lower the lift and switch to 31” tires? I regeared to 4.56 to push 32s, will it be overgeared running 31s? How low can you crank down the front end in the 4” JBA adjustable? And won’t the back end still be at 4”? I got I way over my head here guys. I built this car without have the money or the know how to do it and now I’m in a big hole. This has me legitimately depressed.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:42 am 
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So this is a stretch, and ill wait for someone to tell me I'm an idiot and to go home, but what if there was a way to somehow raise the tie rod ends on the knuckle so the tie rods weren't at such an extreme angle? when the tie rods are pointing downward they are applying downward pressure which doesn't help you turn but does wear out the rack faster. if the tie rods were more parallel to the ground it would be less stress on the seals.

lastly im sure someone recommend a thicker power steering fluid by Lucas? it says it has better lubrication properties.

best of luck.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:46 am 
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Tman's KK wrote:
So this is a stretch, and ill wait for someone to tell me I'm an idiot and to go home, but what if there was a way to somehow raise the tie rod ends on the knuckle so the tie rods weren't at such an extreme angle? when the tie rods are pointing downward they are applying downward pressure which doesn't help you turn but does wear out the rack faster. if the tie rods were more parallel to the ground it would be less stress on the seals.

lastly im sure someone recommend a thicker power steering fluid by Lucas? it says it has better lubrication properties.

best of luck.


In thought a good idea, but no way to do that without building new spindles which if done right would cost 1000s of dollars
Its one of the things we have discussed since the beginning of doing lifts on Libertys
So while you're not an idiot, you can go home now ! :ROTFL:

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:47 am 
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We’ve discussed tie rod ends/knuckles. Nothin available for the kk and no one is willing to design something custom. At this point I need to consider dropping the lift and swapping to smaller tires. It just doesn’t seem to be working at 4”. The only reason I haven’t done this already is because I spent ALOT of extra money to run it at 4”. If I knew I was gonna have to drop the lift and stick with 31s I wouldn’t have had to regear, would have bought JBA 2” lift, and would t have had to buy tires and saved myself about 4K


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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:54 am 
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ElCuervo52 wrote:
I literally don’t know what to do. Do I sell it? How would I even sell it if it doesn’t work? I have an appointment with another dealership Saturday to try and fix the ESP, do I have them just replace it again for 1500$ what’s the sense in that if it’s just gonna break again? Do I lower the lift and switch to 31” tires? I regeared to 4.56 to push 32s, will it be overgeared running 31s? How low can you crank down the front end in the 4” JBA adjustable? And won’t the back end still be at 4”? I got I way over my head here guys. I built this car without have the money or the know how to do it and now I’m in a big hole. This has me legitimately depressed.


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I feel your pain but with anything when you are pushing the boundaries when building anything you must have deep pockets for what follows. Years ago ( late 70s ) when we were building 4x4 Dodge vans the " race " to fit larger tires on them led to more and more hurdles. While we hit the 40 inch tire mark, it was a ton of work, and lots of money to get there.
So I know how you feel when on a limited budget.
You can lower the front of course and maybe even trade rear springs with someone of course the thing that remains is the rack .
I need to crawl under one again and look closely to see what the KKs are having more issues than the KJs ever did .
I mean my 04 literally was lifted over 200,000 miles and of that over 150,000 at 3.75 to 4.5 inches and still original rack in it.
Anyone have some good pics to share ?
Also do they break in the same exact place every time ?

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:26 pm 
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PS fluid keeps leaking from the seals. Has been on both side. So sign of mechanical failure of the actual rack. How low can I crank down the front end without having to swap out the 4" rear coils? It's looking like that's the way to go unless this dealership miraculously finds a fix to keep it running at 4".

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:32 pm 
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ElCuervo52 wrote:
PS fluid keeps leaking from the seals. Has been on both side. So sign of mechanical failure of the actual rack. How low can I crank down the front end without having to swap out the 4" rear coils? It's looking like that's the way to go unless this dealership miraculously finds a fix to keep it running at 4".

With 32s you should be able to crank it down to 3.5 inches without too many issues
Not hard to do , would have more or less a factory rake to it at that point
of course new alignment but better than new rack and could keep the 32s

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:41 pm 
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The front end was set at 3.5 inches for the first 3 racks. Tires were digging into the pinch weld at 3.5 inches (which is why the shop chopped it off). Raised to 4 inches for the 4th rack. To lower the lift significantly I would have to switch to 31s. My question is how low can I crank down the front end while keeping the current 4" rear coils? And will the truck be overgeared at 4.56 with 31s? Surely if I keep the same lift height and tires this will just keep happening. Seems like the best option is to lower and switch tires, no?

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:57 pm 
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It just seems statistically to not be a problem with the steering racks themselves, but be something vehicle or operator related, as they are the only constants according to what you've indicated.
I'm not a KK expert and don't pretend to be, but Just wanted to put out some ideas to check.

When the racks go, do they always blow out seals on both ends or only one end, or different every time?

If only both ends, what is happening when they fail? (IE: turning, or going over bumps?)

Can you tell if they leak only when steering is fully cranked to lock, only when being turned,(moving), (one way or both ways), or all the time?

Does it leak from a specific area? (ie:top or bottom)

If only one end fails, which end fails? same every time?

Is there a condition of high suspension compression, or full suspension drop, where a turn-to-lock results in tire or wheel or something else, contacting the tie rod or rod end? Check both ways as most rack and pinion steering units turn farther one way than the other at full lock.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:03 pm 
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It has always been the seals. The fluid leaks from around or in a few case through a hole in the boot. Twice it’s been the R side and twice on the left. Only one seal leaks at a time. There is no contact between any suspension parts with normal turning (or with flex that I can tell). As I said I’ve only been mall crawling since I got the last one replaced. I’m very careful with the steering and make sure not to crank to lock, especially at a stop. At some point the seals just go and the power steering stops working. Haven’t seen a pattern with when the seals go. At some point I’ll just try to turn and power steering isn’t there. It’s then that I’ll look under the vehicle and see a leak. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, ESP has been malfunctioning as well on the first L turn after startup. I’ve found when I turn the wheel R after startup the ESP light comes on and then no problems. My dad was driving when the steering went out yesterday. He said he forgot to turn the wheel to the R after startup to disable ESP, then the first L turn ESP kicked in and the wheels locked up briefly. Shortly after that power steering stopped working and we saw a leak under the car.


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 Post subject: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:05 pm 
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It’s unclear to me whether the ESP and the steering problems are related. ESP wasn’t an issue immediately after the lift. It wasn’t until I hit a rock hard with the front L tire Offroad that the ESP light came one. I had already gone through 2 racks before the ESP problems though. Since hitting the rock it’s been doing the wacky thing with the 1st L turn after startup. If it helps the suspension is also squeaky with bumps. Not sure if that’s the UCAs or springs. Offroad warehouse and Jeep dealership have both told me there’s no loose bolts: bad joints.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:32 pm 
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NOW UPON GOING BACK/ REREADING EVERYTHING
can't really see that it the suspension causing this, I mean anytime you lift certain things will wear more
BUT in your case there is no rhyme or reason to this " madness "
Read so much now my eyes hurt LOL but alignment was done after you hit that big rock CORRECT ?
Also I think it was mentioned P/S pump was replaced , right?
Guess just going through my mind and trying to visualize your suspension parts moving , fluid flowing etc
dang..........

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:01 pm 
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PS pump was replaced. Had it aligned about 5 times, and yes right after hitting the rock. Offroad shop told me the tires are too big for factory steering rack to push. Dealership told me the lift is too high and the tie rods are at too much of an angle.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Posted on the KK facebook group and have gotten a lot of responses. Seems like the general consensus is 4" of lift is too much for KK. As much as I love the way it looks right now I'm Seriously considering lowering the front end and switching to my 31" BFGs. Thoughts? How low can I crank it down?

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:27 pm 
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I've been following your posts about all the rack issues you've had. I know having new knuckles designed was brought up and it would certainly be expensive. I would hit up some of the fab shops on http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/273-job-shop/ see if they can come up with a high steering adapter like they do for some solid axles. As long as you can keep it away from the tire I don't see why something like this wouldn't work to raise the TREs 2". Only other option would be to swap out the R&P for a Howe hydro assist r&p but then you'd be spending the same as a solid axle swap.

Some pics for inspiration.

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Image

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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:40 pm 
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Problem is the KK's knuckle is aluminum and casting new knuckles would be about $50k-$100k for the prototype.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th times the charm
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:17 am 
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What do you guys think about a new vs reman rack


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