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 Post subject: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:03 am 
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2012 Liberty with factory tow package: I recently found the rear pads worn out, while the front pads have about 30% wear. About half the use is to tow a 5x8 trailer (which has brakes) with fire wood. A typical load is around 3000 pounds, about 14 times a year.

Is there a proportioning valve that sense the load or is activated by the tow/haul button that is applying more braking to the rear? Or did jeep just use the cheapest pads money can buy on these things? It only has 17,000 miles.

Will a brake controller fix the issue?

--there are proportioning valves that do sense load and adjust braking accordingly. I have an old 1988 VW Quantum Syncro that does that. (it was called the Passat Varient in the rest of the world and came with mechanical all wheel drive and locking differentials).


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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Towing or not, you will generally go thru 2 sets of OEM rear brake pads to 1 set of fronts.
I'm not sure if it is because they are rear brake bias, if the pads on the rear are just softer, or if the rear pad size (Sq.In. contact area) is the cause.
The KA is the exact same way.

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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Scar0 wrote:
Towing or not, you will generally go thru 2 sets of OEM rear brake pads to 1 set of fronts.
I'm not sure if it is because they are rear brake bias, if the pads on the rear are just softer, or if the rear pad size (Sq.In. contact area) is the cause.
The KA is the exact same way.


I've been driving for over 55 years, and I've seen rear pads wear twice as fast as the front -- but in this case we have worn out pads in 17,000 miles and roughly 30% wear on the front pads. New pads have 11mm of material. The existing pads still have 8mm of material. Thus there is accelerated wear on the rear and I'm just trying to figure out if Jeep used crap pad or there is something else going on, like a proportioning valve, or for all I know the computer is controlling the pressure when a trailer is plugged in.

The 2012 with the factory tow package does have programming that will control the throttle if it senses trailer sway.


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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:59 am 
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waysidecharlie wrote:
I've been driving for over 55 years, and I've seen rear pads wear twice as fast as the front -- but in this case we have worn out pads in 17,000 miles and roughly 30% wear on the front pads. New pads have 11mm of material. The existing pads still have 8mm of material. Thus there is accelerated wear on the rear and I'm just trying to figure out if Jeep used crap pad or there is something else going on, like a proportioning valve, or for all I know the computer is controlling the pressure when a trailer is plugged in.

The 2012 with the factory tow package does have programming that will control the throttle if it senses trailer sway.


I have a manual trany, No tow-Haul button(All the Tow-Haul button does is to lock out overdrive.). OEM trailer tow package, W/sway mitigation programming.
I replaced the rear brakes last year, fronts are still fine.
I also tow a 5x12x4' tall, open trailer (no trailer brakes) loaded with wet firewood from up in the mountains to home. 3-6 loads a year. 45 miles one way, 900' drop in elevation on a winding road.

With my trailer on my rig, the trailer anti-sway programming will automatically apply the brakes (via the ABS) if I take a corner to fast. When this happens, I can clearly hear(makes a rapid vibrating sound, almost sounds like grinding it is so fast) and feel the ABS activating.

There is a system called "EVBP" Electronic Variable Brake Proportioning. It is standard on all rigs with the ESP programming. EVBP is used to balance front-to-rear braking. The EVBP system controls slip of the rear wheels when braking at a low to moderate deceleration. If more control is needed the ABS kicks in. EVBP is controlled by the lower part of the ABS valves.

17,000 miles is very soon to have to replace the brake pads even with EVBP. But with 70% left on the front, it is pretty much in line with my rig. (except for the miles 45,000 when I changed them.)
14 loads a year with 3000 Lbs per load is a lot of weight to be stopping. About 2+ times the weight my rig has to stop per year.
Comparing your miles to mine that would be close to 50% sooner(+/-) for your rear pads to wear out. Seems comparable to me.

But, even folks who don't tow, find themselves replacing the rear pads 2/1 to the fronts.
Part of that, I believe, is because the rear pads are smaller (Less Sq.In. contact surface) then the front pads. Take a look at the 2 side by side and you will see what I mean.
Part could also be the composition of the pads themselves.

Electric trailer brakes, and a controller, will lower the rigs usage of it's brakes to slow the trailer down. So yes, electric trailer brakes and a controller will reduce the wear on the rigs brake pads.

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2.5" Adjust-A-Strut JBA lift, Euro taillights,
Home made; Front Tilt Hood, Roof Rack, RAM Air, & CAI.
ESP Off Switch
Take a ride on the Trō side!

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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Scar0 wrote:
waysidecharlie wrote:
I've been driving for over 55 years, and I've seen rear pads wear twice as fast as the front -- but in this case we have worn out pads in 17,000 miles and roughly 30% wear on the front pads. New pads have 11mm of material. The existing pads still have 8mm of material. Thus there is accelerated wear on the rear and I'm just trying to figure out if Jeep used crap pad or there is something else going on, like a proportioning valve, or for all I know the computer is controlling the pressure when a trailer is plugged in.

The 2012 with the factory tow package does have programming that will control the throttle if it senses trailer sway.


I have a manual trany, No tow-Haul button(All the Tow-Haul button does is to lock out overdrive.). OEM trailer tow package, W/sway mitigation programming.
I replaced the rear brakes last year, fronts are still fine.
I also tow a 5x12x4' tall, open trailer (no trailer brakes) loaded with wet firewood from up in the mountains to home. 3-6 loads a year. 45 miles one way, 900' drop in elevation on a winding road.

With my trailer on my rig, the trailer anti-sway programming will automatically apply the brakes (via the ABS) if I take a corner to fast. When this happens, I can clearly hear(makes a rapid vibrating sound, almost sounds like grinding it is so fast) and feel the ABS activating.

There is a system called "EVBP" Electronic Variable Brake Proportioning. It is standard on all rigs with the ESP programming. EVBP is used to balance front-to-rear braking. The EVBP system controls slip of the rear wheels when braking at a low to moderate deceleration. If more control is needed the ABS kicks in. EVBP is controlled by the lower part of the ABS valves.

17,000 miles is very soon to have to replace the brake pads even with EVBP. But with 70% left on the front, it is pretty much in line with my rig. (except for the miles 45,000 when I changed them.)
14 loads a year with 3000 Lbs per load is a lot of weight to be stopping. About 2+ times the weight my rig has to stop per year.
Comparing your miles to mine that would be close to 50% sooner(+/-) for your rear pads to wear out. Seems comparable to me.

But, even folks who don't tow, find themselves replacing the rear pads 2/1 to the fronts.
Part of that, I believe, is because the rear pads are smaller (Less Sq.In. contact surface) then the front pads. Take a look at the 2 side by side and you will see what I mean.
Part could also be the composition of the pads themselves.

Electric trailer brakes, and a controller, will lower the rigs usage of it's brakes to slow the trailer down. So yes, electric trailer brakes and a controller will reduce the wear on the rigs brake pads.


Thank you for the feed back. I will buy a brake controller.


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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:53 am 
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You wrote: "...I also tow a 5x12x4' tall, open trailer."

If the load is hard wood, its a good cord and half which has to weigh at least 3000 pounds, plus the weight of the trailer. Most hard woods weigh around 4000 lb per cord. Pine (soft woods) weight a little less but not much.

You are towing as much as me. I get half a cord in a 5x8 x2 dump trailer. But some of my loads have been sugar and red maple which are two of the most dense woods. Some of my drops are probably around 1500 feet for about half the trips into the national forest.

Still I think the rear brake pad wear is excessive for only having 17,000 miles on the machine.


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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Man, you guys jinxed me, lol. Read this post this morning, drive the Liberty today and noticed a weird noise from the right rear of the Jeep. Go look and the pads have gone down to metal on metal. All new rotors, ceramic pads, and parking brake rebuild/ shoe kit on the way. Probably has about 20k on the pads. Not much towing either. Some fun hil climbing stuff though. Fronts are probably ok but going to start fresh on all fours. Time to start installing the skids, ATH bumper, winch, and locker soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:05 am 
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waysidecharlie wrote:
You wrote: "...I also tow a 5x12x4' tall, open trailer."

If the load is hard wood, its a good cord and half which has to weigh at least 3000 pounds, plus the weight of the trailer. Most hard woods weigh around 4000 lb per cord. Pine (soft woods) weight a little less but not much.

You are towing as much as me. I get half a cord in a 5x8 x2 dump trailer. But some of my loads have been sugar and red maple which are two of the most dense woods. Some of my drops are probably around 1500 feet for about half the trips into the national forest.

Still I think the rear brake pad wear is excessive for only having 17,000 miles on the machine.

Sorry I missed this earlier. Its mostly green fir, some maple and alder.
I agree 17K miles is very soon to have to change brake pads. But I don't get as many loads a year as you do.

MarkZ28 wrote:
Man, you guys jinxed me, lol. Read this post this morning, drive the Liberty today and noticed a weird noise from the right rear of the Jeep. Go look and the pads have gone down to metal on metal. All new rotors, ceramic pads, and parking brake rebuild/ shoe kit on the way. Probably has about 20k on the pads. Not much towing either. Some fun hil climbing stuff though. Fronts are probably ok but going to start fresh on all fours. Time to start installing the skids, ATH bumper, winch, and locker soon.

Do you use hill decent when wheeling or Hill Start Assist?

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ESP Off Switch
Take a ride on the Trō side!

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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:00 pm 
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I have some just to see what it does, fun to play with. Mostly just used non hill assist. Sounds like the thing is falling apart when it was in effect, lol. Pretty cool how well it works though.

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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:27 pm 
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I was just wondering if maybe using those a lot would cause the brake pads to wear faster then normal. Were your front pads still around 50%? When I did my rears the fronts were still in great shape.

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07 KA Light Khaki, Manual trany.
2.5" Adjust-A-Strut JBA lift, Euro taillights,
Home made; Front Tilt Hood, Roof Rack, RAM Air, & CAI.
ESP Off Switch
Take a ride on the Trō side!

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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:50 am 
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Found out it was a seized right rear caliper. Left rear brakes were maybe 50%, front maybe a little more left. Right front caliper was leaking, so all brake parts are being ordered. Uodated it in the "what did you do to your kk today" thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Do you use hill decent when wheeling or Hill Start Assist?[/quote]

On my 2012 hill decent only works when in 4WD Low range. Its useful, but they programmers it to work in 4W high. The cruise control tries to hold it back, but usually not for long.


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 Post subject: Re: Braking Tow/Haul
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:48 am 
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waysidecharlie wrote:
Quote:
Do you use hill decent when wheeling or Hill Start Assist?


On my 2012 hill decent only works when in 4WD Low range. Its useful, but they programmers it to work in 4W high. The cruise control tries to hold it back, but usually not for long.


OD off, low gear, let the speed build up without touching the brake pedal until rpm is close to red, fast braking until it drops to ~1500. Then you let the speed gain again up, fast braking etc. That way you let the brakes cool without burning them. If you brake whole the decent, there's no opportunity for brakes to ventilate and cool and end result is burnt ones. Easier with manual but works with AT as well.

11 years behind the steering wheel of 18- and 22-wheelers (of 38 - 60 metric tons), never burnt one brake with this method.

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