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 Post subject: Jeep announces E85 Commander
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:49 pm 
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I'm not sure E85 will be any more that a flash in the pan and gone from the pumps in couple of years.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:10 pm 
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not so sure about that considering they are going to build an ethanol plant right near where i live... it may be more of a locality thing, but i doubt it's going to go away anytime soon.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:23 pm 
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From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/bu...rssnyt&emc=rss

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CHICAGO, July 12 — Biodiesel produced from soybeans produces more usable energy and reduces greenhouse gases more than corn-based ethanol, making it more deserving of subsidies, according to a study being published this month in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The study, done by researchers at the University of Minnesota and at St. Olaf College in Northfield, Minn., points to the environmental benefits of the biodiesel over ethanol made from corn, stating that ethanol provides 25 percent more energy a gallon than is required for its production, while soybean biodiesel generates 93 percent more energy.

The study’s authors also found that ethanol, in its production and consumption, reduces greenhouse gas emissions by 12 percent, compared with fossil fuels. Biodiesel, they said, reduces such emissions 41 percent, compared with fossil fuels.

The study concludes that the future of replacing oil and gas lies with cellulosic ethanol produced from low-cost materials like switch grass or wheat straw, if it is grown on agriculturally marginal land or from waste plant material.

Indeed, the study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that neither ethanol nor biodiesel can replace much petroleum without having an impact on food supply. If all American corn and soybean production were dedicated to biofuels, that fuel would replace only 12 percent of gas demand and 6 percent of diesel demand, the study notes.

Researchers at universities and at the United States Agriculture Department have debated ethanol’s benefits as policy makers continue to struggle with how to respond to high gasoline prices and how to reduce America’s dependence on foreign oil.

Some lawmakers have urged an end to federal subsidies of 51 cents a gallon for ethanol refiners. The subsidies have helped create a boom in ethanol production and have made ethanol more profitable than ever.

The researchers in the latest study question ethanol’s environmental benefits, noting that despite the 12 percent reduction in greenhouse gases, ethanol has “greater environmental and human health impacts because of increased release of five air pollutants and nitrate, nitrite and pesticides.”

Neither biofuel was cost-competitive in 2005 without subsidies. Biodiesel cost 55 cents a liter to produce, or 20 percent more than ethanol. Wholesale gasoline prices in 2005 averaged 44 cents a liter, or 4 percent less a liter to produce than ethanol, the study said. Still, biodiesel receives a subsidy that is 45 percent greater a liter than ethanol.

Analysts agreed with the study’s conclusion that biodiesel compares favorably with ethanol from an environmental standpoint. “Biodiesel is much cleaner-burning fuel and much less harmful to the environment,” Daniel W. Basse, president of AgResource in Chicago, an economic forecasting firm, said Wednesday.

But Mr. Basse said ethanol production is far more efficient, with some 420 gallons of ethanol produced per acre of corn versus only 60 gallons of biodiesel per acre of soybeans. If biodiesel use ever increased greatly, Mr. Basse said, the cost of soybean oil would rise significantly.

Brent Erickson, executive vice president of the Biotechnology Industry Organization, based in Washington, agreed that biodiesel’s potential was limited. “If you look at the amount of biodiesel you can produce, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of cellulosic ethanol that could be produced one day,” he said.

The Minnesota researchers write that with a projected doubling of global demand for food within 50 years and an even greater expected increase in demand for transportation fuels, “there is a great need for renewable energy supplies that do not cause significant harm and do not compete with food supply.”


In reality no current bio mass and provide more then a drop in the bucket compared to petro-oil with the exception being algae with the capabilities of being about 4000 times more productive then soy beans per acre.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:18 pm 
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If the Commander is coming out as an E85 jeep - I might wait on it - my wife really wants one - really baaaad

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:38 pm 
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KJ-BOL wrote:
If the Commander is coming out as an E85 jeep - I might wait on it - my wife really wants one - really baaaad
It has been offically announced by D/C as an '07 option on Commander, but I suspect it will not be available on the 5.7L V8 engine. I like the the idea of FFV but the problem is according to Chrysler lease site and a couple of people I know with GM PU trucks that when run on Methanol the mpg drops about 30% by second tank of fuel. The price break here is 21%, so that would leave you taking about a 10% loss just to drive the FFV on Methanol. That would make a vehicle like the small V8 a 13 mpg vehicle a 250 mile fuel range on the highway. The only thing I like about it is the $$$ stay in the US, but at a price that I really can't or won't pay then what happens when the tax break is pulled. For these reasons I see the E85 disappearing in the not to distant future.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:13 am 
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Still a lot of politics on both sides with ethanol vs biodiesel.

In the last part of the article, one guy made it sound as if you could only produce biodiesel from soybeans dedicated solely to fuel production, while with the cellouse process you could make ethanol from anything.

You can make bio or synthetic diesel out of bloody near anything now. There was an article in Diesel Power mag last year, described several different processes they were working on. DC has actually been funding a process called BTL, or Biomass to Liquid, producing biodiesel from dead trees and wood, essentially the same deal as celluosic ethanol production. It's actually better than soybean bio in that it has much lower NOX emissions and if I remember correctly a much lower cloud point, with all the other advantages of soybean bio still in place.

There's also GTL, Gas to Liquid, converting natural gas to synthetic diesel. The oil companies are actually pushing this process, it'll make it much easier to recover gas from smaller fields that wouldn't be economical otherwise, and a lot easier to transport a liquid fuel that doesn't require all the hoorah of LNG. One Arab country, Qatar, is actually building a sizeable GTL plant to make it easier to market their natural gas reserves. From what I read, this stuff comes out at around 75 cetane, you'd probably have to cut it with dino to keep from blowing up your engine!

And as far as soybean bio, it's not an either/or proposition, having to decide whether to use the soybeans as food or fuel. Either way, you're still going to end up with soybean meal, which can be used for food, and soybean oil, which can be refined for fuel. The same can probably be said for corn-based ethanol production. And they always seem to miss the fact that there are probably millions of gallons of used cooking oil thrown away by fast food and other restaurants and facilities every day that could be reprocessed into fuel.

If DC could start pushing the BTL process, the biodiesel version of celluosic ethanol, things could really start to get interesting.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:38 am 
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Dead trees used as fuel isn't that bad an idea...i'm just waiting till we can start turning in our grass clippings for a credit on gas...how many bags a year of grass you think go to the burn pile that could be turned into fuel for the U.S. or World period...it boggles my mind to even think how many....by the way did anyone see that grass powered car on Mythbusters?

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 Post subject: Re: Jeep announces E85 Commander
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:43 am 
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oldnavy wrote:
I'm not sure E85 will be any more that a flash in the pan and gone from the pumps in couple of years.


If the U.S. Government continues with its heavy subsidies of ethanol without promoting and spreading its availability across America soon, I'd say within 3 years it will go under and that will be that. Its a very viable alternative fuel as has been proven in South America (Brazil especially) and many countries in Europe (Sweden for example), the key thing is that those places have carried the fuel in heavy subsidies for short periods all the while pushing its usage to the mainstream as well to automakers providing vehicles. Saab in Sweden has produced a Turbo E-85 FFV which has substantial power gains without getting any losses in fuel mileage, if not gaining in mileage. Thats what all the automakers need to realize... TURBO + E-85 = SUCCESSFUL :wink:

That being said (regardless of the fact that I drive a KJ CRD) I have always been a big advocate of biodiesel and feel that it is the future fuel that will power the majority of future vehicles. As long as there are ways to control NOx emmissions from diesel fuels, there will be no government agencies or treehugger groups that can stop its rise. Consider the fact of the ridiculous amount of ways diesel fuels can be created from natural, renewable sources... it is preposterous for anyone to think its not the answer to petroleum and the world's supply of oil THAT WILL RUN OUT. Recently a guy from the University of Illinois discovered a means to turn pig manure into diesel fuel, so as long as pigs poop we can drive diesel vehicles :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:43 am 
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oldnavy wrote:
KJ-BOL wrote:
If the Commander is coming out as an E85 jeep - I might wait on it - my wife really wants one - really baaaad
It has been offically announced by D/C as an '07 option on Commander, but I suspect it will not be available on the 5.7L V8 engine. I like the the idea of FFV but the problem is according to Chrysler lease site and a couple of people I know with GM PU trucks that when run on Methanol the mpg drops about 30% by second tank of fuel. The price break here is 21%, so that would leave you taking about a 10% loss just to drive the FFV on Methanol. That would make a vehicle like the small V8 a 13 mpg vehicle a 250 mile fuel range on the highway. The only thing I like about it is the $$$ stay in the US, but at a price that I really can't or won't pay then what happens when the tax break is pulled. For these reasons I see the E85 disappearing in the not to distant future.

The drop if fuel mileage and cruising range is very noticable. Last Fall, I was looking at a new Silverado. The dealer had two virtually identical trucks, one with a basic 5.3L, the other a 5.3L FFV. There was a significant difference in estimated fuel milage on the window sticker along with a another sign on the dashboard to explaing the situation. I would still like to know the mechanical difference between the two engines that makes one an FFV.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:46 am 
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RFCRD wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
KJ-BOL wrote:
If the Commander is coming out as an E85 jeep - I might wait on it - my wife really wants one - really baaaad
It has been offically announced by D/C as an '07 option on Commander, but I suspect it will not be available on the 5.7L V8 engine. I like the the idea of FFV but the problem is according to Chrysler lease site and a couple of people I know with GM PU trucks that when run on Methanol the mpg drops about 30% by second tank of fuel. The price break here is 21%, so that would leave you taking about a 10% loss just to drive the FFV on Methanol. That would make a vehicle like the small V8 a 13 mpg vehicle a 250 mile fuel range on the highway. The only thing I like about it is the $$$ stay in the US, but at a price that I really can't or won't pay then what happens when the tax break is pulled. For these reasons I see the E85 disappearing in the not to distant future.

The drop if fuel mileage and cruising range is very noticable. Last Fall, I was looking at a new Silverado. The dealer had two virtually identical trucks, one with a basic 5.3L, the other a 5.3L FFV. There was a significant difference in estimated fuel milage on the window sticker along with a another sign on the dashboard to explaing the situation. I would still like to know the mechanical difference between the two engines that makes one an FFV.


Not sure about all the changes, but there is an oxygen sensor for the fuel delivery system to tell the computer how to burn it efficiently. There are also stainless steel fuel lines, and no rubber fittings/lines/gaskets anywhere in the fuel delivery system as the E85 is very corrosive to it. Mechanically speaking, everything in the engine itself is already E85 compatible on most vehicles - maybe gasket material has to be looked at.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:36 am 
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alljeep wrote:
Not sure about all the changes, but there is an oxygen sensor for the fuel delivery system to tell the computer how to burn it efficiently. There are also stainless steel fuel lines, and no rubber fittings/lines/gaskets anywhere in the fuel delivery system as the E85 is very corrosive to it. Mechanically speaking, everything in the engine itself is already E85 compatible on most vehicles - maybe gasket material has to be looked at.
The process for FFV even includes crome pistons, there can be no standard iron or steel exposure anywhere from gas tank to injectors to pistons. Very few cars can be converted to FFV without shorting their engine life, however there is an outfit selling some kind of fuel additive that is suppose to coat the engine to protect it and the fuel delivery system. It ain't exactly cheap and I would not subject my Magnum to the risk of $10,000 worth of damage to try the stuff.

VW just announced that for '07 all their car would be FFV complient and that includes the turbo versions. :D

The turbo is the only way to go with a FFV and yet for some reason there are no domestic turbo FFV cars advertized as yet for '07 MY production, with only the turbo Dodge cars being possible future FFV cars. That ain't squat and would not make a dent in the market. :x

I am glad to see some are keeping up and/or getting inform about alternative fuels and educating other here and that was and is the whole point of my starting this thread.

DW check out the TDI Club Forum for some ideas it would be great to see a diesel or alternative fuel section something like the TDI Club has been for the 6 years I have been a member. I don't own a VW, but I am still an active member and even go to and host diesel GTG at my home.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:11 am 
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If the only FFV vehicles available in the U.S. entail a significant drop in fuel mileage, ie even more trips to the pump and more money out of pocket, when using E85, then you're absolutely right, within 5 years E85 and ethanol will be a dead duck.

With the exception of this country, most of the rest of the world has come to realize that as far as internal combustion engines go, diesels were the original FFV right out of the box.

My family lived in southeast KY for a few years. I saw what coal mining, in particualr strip mining, could do to the countryside, and have always felt a little guilty because at the time the only work available for my father was running heavy equipment in one of these strip mines.

Regardless, along with natural gas, coal is one of the energy sources this country has in abundance. And the process for turning coal into synthetic gasoline and diesel has been around for decades. Germany ran nearly half it's military on synthetic fuel made from coal in WWII. The U.S. even experimented with the process for a couple of decades after the war, the govt funding at least 2 synthetic coal to gasoline plants. The reason? Gasoline costs had tripled to the unheard-of price of 15 cents per gallon, and they were concerned even then about the long-term availability of fuel for this country, they had already realized that one day demand would outstrip domestic production. But with the availability of then-cheap imported oil, the project eventually died from lack of interest.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:21 pm 
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Hold on I thought that my gas KJ can burn E85, just not in the winter time because it is to cold to burn.

So all one would need to do to make their gas KJ a gas/e85 jk is to make a Y connector to the fuel lines from the tank and add in a smaller tank 2-5 gallons that good old 87 octane would be in to heat up the engine block so that when you threw the Y connector the otherway, the E85 can now burn instead of 87 octane.

Would that work or am i just that crazy?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:27 pm 
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l337fpc wrote:
Would that work or am i just that crazy?


Wouldn't the ECM require reprogramming too? (different timings?)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:30 pm 
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l337fpc wrote:
Hold on I thought that my gas KJ can burn E85, just not in the winter time because it is to cold to burn.

So all one would need to do to make their gas KJ a gas/e85 jk is to make a Y connector to the fuel lines from the tank and add in a smaller tank 2-5 gallons that good old 87 octane would be in to heat up the engine block so that when you threw the Y connector the otherway, the E85 can now burn instead of 87 octane.

Would that work or am i just that crazy?
Just crazy. :wink: You have Waste Veggie Oil (WVO), Biodiesel and E85 mixed up, you might want to do a Google on FFV, E85 and Methanol along with Biodiesel.

Jeep has not built a FFV vehicle as yet that I know of and it requires much more then different ECM.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:38 pm 
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darn because if my little plan would work then i;d save some money come when E85 is offered by the pumps near me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:03 pm 
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l337fpc wrote:
darn because if my little plan would work then i;d save some money come when E85 is offered by the pumps near me.
Would be nice wouldn't it, I wish my '05 Magnum was FFV, but alas it is not. :cry:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:13 am 
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That's what I'm loving about this '87 MB. Besides giving every indication of pushing 40 MPG highway on regular dino, whenever I decided it was worth it all I would have to do is pony up the money and get a ready-made kit to run veggie. Then it could run off of regular dino, ULSD, bio, SVO, and WVO. Now THAT'S what I call a FFV!

Better yet, I'm planning on adding a small diesel genset in the bed of my electric pickup. Drive to work, park it, set the timer and let the genset run for an hour ot two to put in just enough juice to be sure of getting home, then when I get home plug it into the wall for a full recharge. You could say that it could run off of regular dino, ULSD, bio, veggie, or solar, wind, hydro, coal, natural gas, and nuclear generated electricity.

Some of the Electric Auto Association tinkers and a couple small companies are already offering kits to convert "regular" hybrids to plug-in models, with enough battery capacity to run for 30 miles or so on electric only in town. There's an article on msn.com where Toyota announced that it will be offering plug-in hybrids down the road.

Personally, I'll wait for a diesel plug-in hybrid.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:30 pm 
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This is an interesting topic, especially since we wrote a story on the future of fuel and the use of biofuels in our Aug/Sept issue of JPFreek. You can check out the O+WP, a biofuels education project, in the issue at:

http://www.jpfreek.com/Images/JPF-No3.PDF

So, do any of you actually use E85 or biofuels? I'm curious about its use and how it performs compared to regular petrol and diesel with Jeep owners.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:44 pm 
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JPFreek1 wrote:
This is an interesting topic, especially since we wrote a story on the future of fuel and the use of biofuels in our Aug/Sept issue of JPFreek. You can check out the O+WP, a biofuels education project, in the issue at:

http://www.jpfreek.com/Images/JPF-No3.PDF

So, do any of you actually use E85 or biofuels? I'm curious about its use and how it performs compared to regular petrol and diesel with Jeep owners.


I had a friend using E85 for a while, but quit using it because it was only 20% cheaper then regular gas and his mpg drop was almost 35% in his FFV Chevy PU truck.

All the B100 diesel users I know report at most about 5% drop in mpg when running it in VW TDI's.

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