It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:07 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Blended Fuels? Magic or Myth?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:17 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 746
Location: Nashville, TN
I've been reading about some "blends" you can use to thin down WVO or SVO to the point that it will burn without harm in an unmodified engine.

One type called Schur Ecofuel is a blend of regular unleaded gas and isopropyl alcohol. I've also seen a site that will sell you "additive" to put in WVO which thins it so it will run in an unmodified engine.

Any truth to this? Does it work? Will it grenade your engine eventually?

_________________
Chad Hargis
Nashville, TN
2008 Grand Cherokee CRD
2005 Liberty CRD *SOLD*


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:59 pm
Posts: 5171
Location: Austin, TX
I'm pretty sure the WVO and SVO will run in a Diesel - as is - the concern is that they gel easily - so they start up and cool down on regular diesel and they have heated lines - but the vegetable oil is unmodifed.

to convert to Biodiesel - you have to transesterify
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Isopropyl alcohol is used in the transesterfication

I don't know about using IPA in gas engines - it should be technically do-able, the economics probably aren't as good as Ethanol.

_________________
2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blended Fuels? Magic or Myth?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:49 am 
Offline
LOST Junkie

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:02 am
Posts: 506
Location: Berlin, CT
chadhargis wrote:
I've been reading about some "blends" you can use to thin down WVO or SVO to the point that it will burn without harm in an unmodified engine.

One type called Schur Ecofuel is a blend of regular unleaded gas and isopropyl alcohol. I've also seen a site that will sell you "additive" to put in WVO which thins it so it will run in an unmodified engine.

Any truth to this? Does it work? Will it grenade your engine eventually?


I actually study blends of WVO/SVO w/ No.2 (diesel) in furnaces and can tell you that the spray patterns do change. I can't see the cost savings to most of the "exotic" blends even if they DO work. Isopropyl alcohol, with no water in it (ie not from the pharmacy) ain't cheap. And gas ain't either!

Most of this stuff isn't seriously tested, so you'll be experimenting with your Jeep. As it is, with 100% biodiesel, you should increase the frequency of oil changes. Ditto for SVO converted vehicles. So that expense has to be added.

Short anwser: You car will probably run...but for how long, and at what savings?

_________________
2005 Liberty Sport CRD w/all the fixings
Elephant Hose, MAF (ORM), Amsoil Airfilter, nice when I get to drive it
1 EGRreplacement, but never again.
99.5 FrankenJetta TDI (R.I.P.): being turned into diesel hybrid!
99.5 Replacement Jetta TDI: deal of a lifetime, EHM, some other stuff


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:46 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 746
Location: Nashville, TN
Good point.

About as far on the fringe as I've gone is running B20, but the thought of alternative fuel really intrigues me. I'd love to brew up my own biodiesel, but I'd like to hook up with an expert first to learn the ropes. Help him make a few batches. Give it a try in my CRD. Then make the investment (both in materials and oil collection time) and try it myself.

I'm a techno geek at heart, and anything I can tinker with is fun to me. Making my own fuel, now that would be sweet!!

_________________
Chad Hargis
Nashville, TN
2008 Grand Cherokee CRD
2005 Liberty CRD *SOLD*


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 1:28 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:02 am
Posts: 506
Location: Berlin, CT
Definitely meet a few people who do it regularly. You'll see why people form co-ops...its hard messy work and you have to chuck a lot of bad batches unless you have collective expertise. Also, the chemicals are bad bad bad and I decided not to got that route because of that..

I won't go into the many issues with home-brews but just know that you run a much higher risk...one bad batch could mean a lot of repair $ for you.

I run my CRD on 100% commecially made Biod in the summer. 50% now and in the fall, and minimal amounts in the winter. The older TDI Jetta is what I abuse regularly and might even convert over to running SVO/WVO. I could consider homemade BioD in that one.

_________________
2005 Liberty Sport CRD w/all the fixings
Elephant Hose, MAF (ORM), Amsoil Airfilter, nice when I get to drive it
1 EGRreplacement, but never again.
99.5 FrankenJetta TDI (R.I.P.): being turned into diesel hybrid!
99.5 Replacement Jetta TDI: deal of a lifetime, EHM, some other stuff


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:21 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:56 pm
Posts: 1830
Location: Spokane, WA
Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences.

_________________
Dave

'06 CRD Limited, Lt. Khaki, MOPAR Slush Mats/Skids, DrawTite Front Hitch, Mag Lite, Yakima Bars, Thule Bike Rack, Fumoto, ORM, 245/70 Revo 2

Wish list: Lift, Boulder Bars, Something Bigger in the Front and Back, More Lights


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:00 pm 
Offline
LOST Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:39 pm
Posts: 392
Location: Allen, TX
Cowcatcher wrote:
Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences.


everybody keeps saying this...

where is this info comming from?? the dealer?? DC?? They by law HAVE TO say that Bio is bad. if they didnt they would have to assume the risk to motors failing right?? I still have not seen it writen anywhere thats trustworthy...

next point... from the "home brewers" point, i dont feel one bit sorry for people who ruin there motor with Bio-D, if you have a bad batch and you try and put it in your tank... thats your own fault! :lol: for the most part, unless you have a A+ batch you wouldnt pour it into your tank. and as for the chem... they really are not that bad... :? lets just say, storing swimming pool chems hold about the same risk again its common se... well i guess, i cant really say that :lol:

:D

_________________
05 CRD
3" Rough Country Lift
SAMCO SPORT Hoses
Magnaflow Muffler (12226)
CAT 2 Fuel Filter
Fumoto Drain Valve
EGR replaced at 50K
in service 8/31/04
Sold 7/21/10 125k miles
----------------------------------------------------------
Paved Roads, another form of unnecessary government spending...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:24 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:15 pm
Posts: 2733
Location: Atlanta GA
skywarn wrote:
Cowcatcher wrote:
Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences.


everybody keeps saying this...

where is this info comming from?? the dealer?? DC?? They by law HAVE TO say that Bio is bad. if they didnt they would have to assume the risk to motors failing right?? I still have not seen it writen anywhere thats trustworthy...


Perhaps it's not the common rail, but the fact that instead or older style mechanical injectors, the CRDs use piezoelectric fuel valves (unless I got that wrong...) to get a more accurate fuel injection. One way of doing that is making the opening smaller and forcing more through it, so using basic fluid dynamics priciples, the higher pressure rail needs to be pushing a lower (relative to cold oil) viscosity fuel faster just to get the same fuel volume per unit combustion cycle. I'm not scientifically proving it, but the fluid flow does obey the same laws....

So, if you a fuel with the same viscosity (via heating or whatever) filtered to a size of the injector opening (which even the crappiest filters should do), then logic would say that the composition of the fuel makes little difference to the Comman Rail system. That's not to say that the computer will like it, but it SHOULD work if those constraints are met.

_________________
Image
2005 Silver CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
245/75R16 GoodYear Duratracs
Fumoto drain | ProVent CCV Filter
Stanadyne FM100 filter | Cummins fuel pump
GDE Eco | SEGR | BoulderBars | FrankenLift | Frankenskids


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:16 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:23 am
Posts: 3544
Location: New Braunfels, Texas
We don't use the piezo in this 2.8L but "Bosch" does not like the use of Bio with our setup. They are afraid the quality varies too much to add it as a good fuel for the CRD. The newer 2.8L Panther CRDs will use this piezo and should run smoother...so says MrMopar and he is involved in the work.

Methanol and Lye are both used by most in making BioDiesel and they can be absorbed thru the skin. You must be very careful and use in a well ventilated area. You also need to "dry" your WVO prior to processing ect. Then you need to wahs and separate the mixture...and all the while make sure the Ph level is correct. It can be done if you have a good cheap source for WVO and also "recover" the Methanol and Water to reuse on the next batch.

The Appleseed setup is the most friendly with Solar Drying units for pre and post "drying" to remove all the water.

_________________
Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport

Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:41 pm 
Offline
LOST Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:39 pm
Posts: 392
Location: Allen, TX
Quote:
So, if you a fuel with the same viscosity (via heating or whatever) filtered to a size of the injector opening (which even the crappiest filters should do), then logic would say that the composition of the fuel makes little difference to the Comman Rail system. That's not to say that the computer will like it, but it SHOULD work if those constraints are met.


this is the diff between Bio and WVO (grease car) The GC uses heat to "thin" out the oil where Bio is the same viscosity as ULSD AND most homebrewers filter down to 0.5 microns... WAY smaller than what #2 is filtered. also "pump" fuel is only filtered in 2 or 3 places... once at the main 50k holding tank, once from the tank into the tanker and last at the pump, then its up too your car after that. we (homebrewers) filter at the pick up point, again at the WVO storage point, once more as it flows into the appleseed, again as it comes out to the wash tank, then 3 more times IN the wash tank, 7th time is when it goes into the Bio storage tank, 8th as its pumped into my car, and 9th using the Cat 2 fuel filter... Pre wash tank i start at 10 microns then work down to 5 microns, post wash tank i use 1 micron - as its pumped into my car it goes through a 0.5 micron. again if some "solds" get into my motor... well its my own darn fault! :D

_________________
05 CRD
3" Rough Country Lift
SAMCO SPORT Hoses
Magnaflow Muffler (12226)
CAT 2 Fuel Filter
Fumoto Drain Valve
EGR replaced at 50K
in service 8/31/04
Sold 7/21/10 125k miles
----------------------------------------------------------
Paved Roads, another form of unnecessary government spending...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:51 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:15 pm
Posts: 2733
Location: Atlanta GA
skywarn wrote:
this is the diff between Bio and WVO (grease car) The GC uses heat to "thin" out the oil where Bio is the same viscosity as ULSD AND most homebrewers filter down to 0.5 microns... WAY smaller than what #2 is filtered. also "pump" fuel is only filtered in 2 or 3 places... once at the main 50k holding tank, once from the tank into the tanker and last at the pump, then its up too your car after that. we (homebrewers) filter at the pick up point, again at the WVO storage point, once more as it flows into the appleseed, again as it comes out to the wash tank, then 3 more times IN the wash tank, 7th time is when it goes into the Bio storage tank, 8th as its pumped into my car, and 9th using the Cat 2 fuel filter... Pre wash tank i start at 10 microns then work down to 5 microns, post wash tank i use 1 micron - as its pumped into my car it goes through a 0.5 micron. again if some "solds" get into my motor... well its my own darn fault! :D


... and by all of that you meant to explain why running bio blends is much safer than SVO in the CRD, right? (wasn't sure if you were agreeing or refuting for a minute). :P

_________________
Image
2005 Silver CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
245/75R16 GoodYear Duratracs
Fumoto drain | ProVent CCV Filter
Stanadyne FM100 filter | Cummins fuel pump
GDE Eco | SEGR | BoulderBars | FrankenLift | Frankenskids


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:13 am 
Offline
LOST Addict

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:01 am
Posts: 1944
Location: Mooresville, NC
From what I've seen, the reason the OEM's get nervous about increasing percentages of biod blends simply boils down to fuel quality. We're still basically in the "wild west" era of the biodiesel industry, and there's still too many unknowns, as far as the engine manufacturers are concerned, to simply give a blanket "OK" for using fuel blends with a significant percentage of biod.

Cummins did give the OK for using B20 with their engines, but only for military and commercial fleets, where there is a standardized maintenance program and definitive standards for fuel quality and analysis, along with the requirement to add an additional water separator filter in line and prior to the factory filter.

Water contamination seems to be their biggest fear. And from the reports on the NBB website, quite a few commercial biod producers weren't cutting the mustard when it came to this, having higher than acceptable levels of water in their finished product.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:54 am 
Offline
LOST Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:39 pm
Posts: 392
Location: Allen, TX
Dgeist - :) i was trying to say how bio is cleaner than the stuff you buy at the pump is.

And about their being to many "unknowns" here is a good way to look at it. When Mr. Diesel made his first motor it was meant to run off of "bio" or Peanut Oil. After he "died" (yea right we all know he was killed) we (man kind) have done everything we can to get #2 diesel to run like Bio.

Again ill will say:

What are the "unknowns??" why is it bad? Could we not have the same posting on why #2 is bad? There is nowhere in writing, that Bio is bad or good....

If you look at a high end camp stove... you can run 4 diff kinds of fuel in it and the end result is always the same...neither one of them is better, or worst for the stove. Bio may not be the "super" fuel of tomorrow, but it is way cheaper, cleaner AND cleaner burning.

_________________
05 CRD
3" Rough Country Lift
SAMCO SPORT Hoses
Magnaflow Muffler (12226)
CAT 2 Fuel Filter
Fumoto Drain Valve
EGR replaced at 50K
in service 8/31/04
Sold 7/21/10 125k miles
----------------------------------------------------------
Paved Roads, another form of unnecessary government spending...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:24 am 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:15 pm
Posts: 2733
Location: Atlanta GA
skywarn wrote:
Dgeist - :) i was trying to say how bio is cleaner than the stuff you buy at the pump is.

What are the "unknowns??" why is it bad? Could we not have the same posting on why #2 is bad? There is nowhere in writing, that Bio is bad or good....

If you look at a high end camp stove... you can run 4 diff kinds of fuel in it and the end result is always the same...neither one of them is better, or worst for the stove. Bio may not be the "super" fuel of tomorrow, but it is way cheaper, cleaner AND cleaner burning.


:wink: I'm glad we're saying the exact same thing from different directions, then. So, to quantify what manufacturers are scared of with Bio (and consequently why some don't like to warranty things if you use it):
- Solvent function might be too much for some components at high concentration
- Fuel tends to be able to hold on to more H2O than #2, so if fuel isn't dried properly, it's more likely to cause problems
- Fuel has various sources that may or may not be filtered to the degree that's needed for the injection systems (same with #2, really, but potentially better regulated).
- High gel point might be deemed too much to explain to those in colder climates
- Crappy oil stock yields crappy power/performance (or at least substandard) which could be blamed on the engine instead of the fuel
- Problems with fuel supply system resulting from solvent function (carbon chunks in the tubes...)

Any other potential points that people argue against use of BioDiesel (I know there are philisophical and secondary environmental reasons for/against specific KINDS of biodiesel, but I'm just talking about the fuel and the jeep working together )

_________________
Image
2005 Silver CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
245/75R16 GoodYear Duratracs
Fumoto drain | ProVent CCV Filter
Stanadyne FM100 filter | Cummins fuel pump
GDE Eco | SEGR | BoulderBars | FrankenLift | Frankenskids


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:32 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:25 pm
Posts: 1306
Location: Colorado USA
I am personally aware of two engine failures on SVO, both newer type high pressure direct injection types. In all diesels, you get unburned fuel that gets past the rings into the lube oil, most of it when starting the engine cold. If anyone has overcooked vegetable oil on the stove, you know that crap can be hell to remove, and this is the same stuff that will gum up rings causing compression loss, and reduce your sump oil's abiltiy to lubricate. Whether you blend your oil or heat it, the results will be the same, especially since vegetable oil does not mix very well in diesel (or gasoline). That's why I will never again use vegetable oil in a diesel; biodiesel is much safer, and is a better fuel than vegetable oil or petro-diesel.

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group. Color scheme by ColorizeIt!
Logo by pixeldecals.com