LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Blended Fuels? Magic or Myth?

I've been reading about some "blends" you can use to thin down WVO or SVO to the point that it will burn without harm in an unmodified engine.

One type called Schur Ecofuel is a blend of regular unleaded gas and isopropyl alcohol. I've also seen a site that will sell you "additive" to put in WVO which thins it so it will run in an unmodified engine.

Any truth to this? Does it work? Will it grenade your engine eventually?

Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences.

Cowcatcher wrote:

Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences.

everybody keeps saying this...

where is this info comming from?? the dealer?? DC?? They by law HAVE TO say that Bio is bad. if they didnt they would have to assume the risk to motors failing right?? I still have not seen it writen anywhere thats trustworthy...

So, if you a fuel with the same viscosity (via heating or whatever) filtered to a size of the injector opening (which even the crappiest filters should do), then logic would say that the composition of the fuel makes little difference to the Comman Rail system. That's not to say that the computer will like it, but it SHOULD work if those constraints are met.

this is the diff between Bio and WVO (grease car) The GC uses heat to "thin" out the oil where Bio is the same viscosity as ULSD AND most homebrewers filter down to 0.5 microns... WAY smaller than what #2 is filtered. also "pump" fuel is only filtered in 2 or 3 places... once at the main 50k holding tank, once from the tank into the tanker and last at the pump, then its up too your car after that. we (homebrewers) filter at the pick up point, again at the WVO storage point, once more as it flows into the appleseed, again as it comes out to the wash tank, then 3 more times IN the wash tank, 7th time is when it goes into the Bio storage tank, 8th as its pumped into my car, and 9th using the Cat 2 fuel filter... Pre wash tank i start at 10 microns then work down to 5 microns, post wash tank i use 1 micron - as its pumped into my car it goes through a 0.5 micron. again if some "solds" get into my motor... well its my own darn fault!

Dgeist -

i was trying to say how bio is cleaner than the stuff you buy at the pump is.

What are the "unknowns??" why is it bad? Could we not have the same posting on why #2 is bad? There is nowhere in writing, that Bio is bad or good....

If you look at a high end camp stove... you can run 4 diff kinds of fuel in it and the end result is always the same...neither one of them is better, or worst for the stove. Bio may not be the "super" fuel of tomorrow, but it is way cheaper, cleaner AND cleaner burning.

Author:	chadhargis [ Fri May 04, 2007 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Blended Fuels? Magic or Myth?
I've been reading about some "blends" you can use to thin down WVO or SVO to the point that it will burn without harm in an unmodified engine. One type called Schur Ecofuel is a blend of regular unleaded gas and isopropyl alcohol. I've also seen a site that will sell you "additive" to put in WVO which thins it so it will run in an unmodified engine. Any truth to this? Does it work? Will it grenade your engine eventually?

Author:	ATXKJ [ Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:
I'm pretty sure the WVO and SVO will run in a Diesel - as is - the concern is that they gel easily - so they start up and cool down on regular diesel and they have heated lines - but the vegetable oil is unmodifed. to convert to Biodiesel - you have to transesterify http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel Isopropyl alcohol is used in the transesterfication I don't know about using IPA in gas engines - it should be technically do-able, the economics probably aren't as good as Ethanol.

Author:	BiodieselJeep.com [ Mon May 07, 2007 11:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Blended Fuels? Magic or Myth?
chadhargis wrote: I've been reading about some "blends" you can use to thin down WVO or SVO to the point that it will burn without harm in an unmodified engine. One type called Schur Ecofuel is a blend of regular unleaded gas and isopropyl alcohol. I've also seen a site that will sell you "additive" to put in WVO which thins it so it will run in an unmodified engine. Any truth to this? Does it work? Will it grenade your engine eventually? I actually study blends of WVO/SVO w/ No.2 (diesel) in furnaces and can tell you that the spray patterns do change. I can't see the cost savings to most of the "exotic" blends even if they DO work. Isopropyl alcohol, with no water in it (ie not from the pharmacy) ain't cheap. And gas ain't either! Most of this stuff isn't seriously tested, so you'll be experimenting with your Jeep. As it is, with 100% biodiesel, you should increase the frequency of oil changes. Ditto for SVO converted vehicles. So that expense has to be added. Short anwser: You car will probably run...but for how long, and at what savings?

Author:	chadhargis [ Mon May 07, 2007 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:
Good point. About as far on the fringe as I've gone is running B20, but the thought of alternative fuel really intrigues me. I'd love to brew up my own biodiesel, but I'd like to hook up with an expert first to learn the ropes. Help him make a few batches. Give it a try in my CRD. Then make the investment (both in materials and oil collection time) and try it myself. I'm a techno geek at heart, and anything I can tinker with is fun to me. Making my own fuel, now that would be sweet!!

Author:	BiodieselJeep.com [ Mon May 07, 2007 1:28 pm ]
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Definitely meet a few people who do it regularly. You'll see why people form co-ops...its hard messy work and you have to chuck a lot of bad batches unless you have collective expertise. Also, the chemicals are bad bad bad and I decided not to got that route because of that.. I won't go into the many issues with home-brews but just know that you run a much higher risk...one bad batch could mean a lot of repair $ for you. I run my CRD on 100% commecially made Biod in the summer. 50% now and in the fall, and minimal amounts in the winter. The older TDI Jetta is what I abuse regularly and might even convert over to running SVO/WVO. I could consider homemade BioD in that one.

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Author:	Cowcatcher [ Mon May 07, 2007 4:21 pm ]
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Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences.

Author:	skywarn [ Mon May 07, 2007 6:00 pm ]
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Cowcatcher wrote: Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences. everybody keeps saying this... where is this info comming from?? the dealer?? DC?? They by law HAVE TO say that Bio is bad. if they didnt they would have to assume the risk to motors failing right?? I still have not seen it writen anywhere thats trustworthy... next point... from the "home brewers" point, i dont feel one bit sorry for people who ruin there motor with Bio-D, if you have a bad batch and you try and put it in your tank... thats your own fault! for the most part, unless you have a A+ batch you wouldnt pour it into your tank. and as for the chem... they really are not that bad... lets just say, storing swimming pool chems hold about the same risk again its common se... well i guess, i cant really say that

Author:	dgeist [ Tue May 08, 2007 2:24 pm ]
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skywarn wrote: Cowcatcher wrote: Also remember that the CRD is common rail which is more sensitive than a regular diesel to fuel differences. everybody keeps saying this... where is this info comming from?? the dealer?? DC?? They by law HAVE TO say that Bio is bad. if they didnt they would have to assume the risk to motors failing right?? I still have not seen it writen anywhere thats trustworthy... Perhaps it's not the common rail, but the fact that instead or older style mechanical injectors, the CRDs use piezoelectric fuel valves (unless I got that wrong...) to get a more accurate fuel injection. One way of doing that is making the opening smaller and forcing more through it, so using basic fluid dynamics priciples, the higher pressure rail needs to be pushing a lower (relative to cold oil) viscosity fuel faster just to get the same fuel volume per unit combustion cycle. I'm not scientifically proving it, but the fluid flow does obey the same laws.... So, if you a fuel with the same viscosity (via heating or whatever) filtered to a size of the injector opening (which even the crappiest filters should do), then logic would say that the composition of the fuel makes little difference to the Comman Rail system. That's not to say that the computer will like it, but it SHOULD work if those constraints are met.

Author:	DarbyWalters [ Tue May 08, 2007 3:16 pm ]
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We don't use the piezo in this 2.8L but "Bosch" does not like the use of Bio with our setup. They are afraid the quality varies too much to add it as a good fuel for the CRD. The newer 2.8L Panther CRDs will use this piezo and should run smoother...so says MrMopar and he is involved in the work. Methanol and Lye are both used by most in making BioDiesel and they can be absorbed thru the skin. You must be very careful and use in a well ventilated area. You also need to "dry" your WVO prior to processing ect. Then you need to wahs and separate the mixture...and all the while make sure the Ph level is correct. It can be done if you have a good cheap source for WVO and also "recover" the Methanol and Water to reuse on the next batch. The Appleseed setup is the most friendly with Solar Drying units for pre and post "drying" to remove all the water.

Author:	skywarn [ Tue May 08, 2007 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: So, if you a fuel with the same viscosity (via heating or whatever) filtered to a size of the injector opening (which even the crappiest filters should do), then logic would say that the composition of the fuel makes little difference to the Comman Rail system. That's not to say that the computer will like it, but it SHOULD work if those constraints are met. this is the diff between Bio and WVO (grease car) The GC uses heat to "thin" out the oil where Bio is the same viscosity as ULSD AND most homebrewers filter down to 0.5 microns... WAY smaller than what #2 is filtered. also "pump" fuel is only filtered in 2 or 3 places... once at the main 50k holding tank, once from the tank into the tanker and last at the pump, then its up too your car after that. we (homebrewers) filter at the pick up point, again at the WVO storage point, once more as it flows into the appleseed, again as it comes out to the wash tank, then 3 more times IN the wash tank, 7th time is when it goes into the Bio storage tank, 8th as its pumped into my car, and 9th using the Cat 2 fuel filter... Pre wash tank i start at 10 microns then work down to 5 microns, post wash tank i use 1 micron - as its pumped into my car it goes through a 0.5 micron. again if some "solds" get into my motor... well its my own darn fault!

Author:	dgeist [ Tue May 08, 2007 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:
skywarn wrote: this is the diff between Bio and WVO (grease car) The GC uses heat to "thin" out the oil where Bio is the same viscosity as ULSD AND most homebrewers filter down to 0.5 microns... WAY smaller than what #2 is filtered. also "pump" fuel is only filtered in 2 or 3 places... once at the main 50k holding tank, once from the tank into the tanker and last at the pump, then its up too your car after that. we (homebrewers) filter at the pick up point, again at the WVO storage point, once more as it flows into the appleseed, again as it comes out to the wash tank, then 3 more times IN the wash tank, 7th time is when it goes into the Bio storage tank, 8th as its pumped into my car, and 9th using the Cat 2 fuel filter... Pre wash tank i start at 10 microns then work down to 5 microns, post wash tank i use 1 micron - as its pumped into my car it goes through a 0.5 micron. again if some "solds" get into my motor... well its my own darn fault! ... and by all of that you meant to explain why running bio blends is much safer than SVO in the CRD, right? (wasn't sure if you were agreeing or refuting for a minute).

Author:	retmil46 [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:13 am ]
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From what I've seen, the reason the OEM's get nervous about increasing percentages of biod blends simply boils down to fuel quality. We're still basically in the "wild west" era of the biodiesel industry, and there's still too many unknowns, as far as the engine manufacturers are concerned, to simply give a blanket "OK" for using fuel blends with a significant percentage of biod. Cummins did give the OK for using B20 with their engines, but only for military and commercial fleets, where there is a standardized maintenance program and definitive standards for fuel quality and analysis, along with the requirement to add an additional water separator filter in line and prior to the factory filter. Water contamination seems to be their biggest fear. And from the reports on the NBB website, quite a few commercial biod producers weren't cutting the mustard when it came to this, having higher than acceptable levels of water in their finished product.

Author:	skywarn [ Fri May 11, 2007 9:54 am ]
Post subject:
Dgeist - i was trying to say how bio is cleaner than the stuff you buy at the pump is. And about their being to many "unknowns" here is a good way to look at it. When Mr. Diesel made his first motor it was meant to run off of "bio" or Peanut Oil. After he "died" (yea right we all know he was killed) we (man kind) have done everything we can to get #2 diesel to run like Bio. Again ill will say: What are the "unknowns??" why is it bad? Could we not have the same posting on why #2 is bad? There is nowhere in writing, that Bio is bad or good.... If you look at a high end camp stove... you can run 4 diff kinds of fuel in it and the end result is always the same...neither one of them is better, or worst for the stove. Bio may not be the "super" fuel of tomorrow, but it is way cheaper, cleaner AND cleaner burning.

Author:	dgeist [ Fri May 11, 2007 10:24 am ]
Post subject:
skywarn wrote: Dgeist - i was trying to say how bio is cleaner than the stuff you buy at the pump is. What are the "unknowns??" why is it bad? Could we not have the same posting on why #2 is bad? There is nowhere in writing, that Bio is bad or good.... If you look at a high end camp stove... you can run 4 diff kinds of fuel in it and the end result is always the same...neither one of them is better, or worst for the stove. Bio may not be the "super" fuel of tomorrow, but it is way cheaper, cleaner AND cleaner burning. I'm glad we're saying the exact same thing from different directions, then. So, to quantify what manufacturers are scared of with Bio (and consequently why some don't like to warranty things if you use it): - Solvent function might be too much for some components at high concentration - Fuel tends to be able to hold on to more H2O than #2, so if fuel isn't dried properly, it's more likely to cause problems - Fuel has various sources that may or may not be filtered to the degree that's needed for the injection systems (same with #2, really, but potentially better regulated). - High gel point might be deemed too much to explain to those in colder climates - Crappy oil stock yields crappy power/performance (or at least substandard) which could be blamed on the engine instead of the fuel - Problems with fuel supply system resulting from solvent function (carbon chunks in the tubes...) Any other potential points that people argue against use of BioDiesel (I know there are philisophical and secondary environmental reasons for/against specific KINDS of biodiesel, but I'm just talking about the fuel and the jeep working together )

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Author:	UFO [ Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:32 pm ]
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I am personally aware of two engine failures on SVO, both newer type high pressure direct injection types. In all diesels, you get unburned fuel that gets past the rings into the lube oil, most of it when starting the engine cold. If anyone has overcooked vegetable oil on the stove, you know that crap can be hell to remove, and this is the same stuff that will gum up rings causing compression loss, and reduce your sump oil's abiltiy to lubricate. Whether you blend your oil or heat it, the results will be the same, especially since vegetable oil does not mix very well in diesel (or gasoline). That's why I will never again use vegetable oil in a diesel; biodiesel is much safer, and is a better fuel than vegetable oil or petro-diesel.