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 Post subject: Washington State Bio-Fuels Positions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:26 pm 
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There have been some comments posted on LOST about the positions of the Washington State Democrat Party and/or the positions of some elected Washington State Federal office holders. I would like to take a moment to clarify those positions.

No single person can speak for the Washington State Democrats, least of all me, except for the whole body of the Washington State Democrat Central Committee which is a congress of delegates that meets quarterly whose members are elected and serve primarily from the Legislative Districts and the County Party organizations. I am a single elected member of this congress.

There are several elected officers, we elect them, who serve statewide including the chair, Dwight Pelz, and the Vice Chair, Eileen Macoll. While those two spokespersons may occasionally need to give voice to issues on behalf of the party their positions will always be guided by the Washington State Democrat Party Platform.

With respect to bio-fuels in general and bio-diesel in particular the Party’s position is clearly stated in two separate sections of the Platform as follows:

AGRICULTURE

o We support the production of renewable energy on farms including biodiesel, methane, solar, ethanol and wind power.

ENERGY

o Conservation and development of clean, efficient and renewable energy as the key to sustainability and utilizing biomass conversion to process American farm products and byproducts into renewable energy, including biodiesel, ethanol and transforming waste into energy;

For further information the complete text of the Washington State Democrat Party can be found at this location: http://www.wa-democrats.org/index.php?p ... play&id=12

Senator Maria Cantwell’s position regarding bio-diesel has also been mentioned here. Her positions are quite clear and can be researched here: http://cantwell.senate.gov/searchresult ... e=cantwell

Similar strong bio-fuel positions are posted for most Washington Start federal office holders, both Democrat and Republican. It is a non-partisan issue.

Bio-fuels are not a 100% solution to our nation’s energy needs they are but a part of the solution. To discount them off-handedly however is short sighted to say the least.

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 Post subject: Re: Washington State Bio-Fuels Positions
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:10 am 
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Cowcatcher wrote:
There have been some comments posted on LOST about the positions of the Washington State Democrat Party and/or the positions of some elected Washington State Federal office holders. I would like to take a moment to clarify those positions.

No single person can speak for the Washington State Democrats, least of all me, except for the whole body of the Washington State Democrat Central Committee which is a congress of delegates that meets quarterly whose members are elected and serve primarily from the Legislative Districts and the County Party organizations. I am a single elected member of this congress.

Its a party position, not a general election. Just to be clear.

Quote:
There are several elected officers, we elect them, who serve statewide including the chair, Dwight Pelz, and the Vice Chair, Eileen Macoll. While those two spokespersons may occasionally need to give voice to issues on behalf of the party their positions will always be guided by the Washington State Democrat Party Platform.

With respect to bio-fuels in general and bio-diesel in particular the Party’s position is clearly stated in two separate sections of the Platform as follows:

AGRICULTURE

o We support the production of renewable energy on farms including biodiesel, methane, solar, ethanol and wind power.

ENERGY

o Conservation and development of clean, efficient and renewable energy as the key to sustainability and utilizing biomass conversion to process American farm products and byproducts into renewable energy, including biodiesel, ethanol and transforming waste into energy;

For further information the complete text of the Washington State Democrat Party can be found at this location: http://www.wa-democrats.org/index.php?p ... play&id=12

This was due to be amended at the last party convention in Yakima in 06. Due to time constraints, the vote never happened. At this point, this portion is in place purely by inertia, and is likely to be changed soon. Other environmental concerns are being raised, and several Democratic state legislaters are now questioning the current biofuel push.

Quote:
Senator Maria Cantwell’s position regarding bio-diesel has also been mentioned here. Her positions are quite clear and can be researched here: http://cantwell.senate.gov/searchresult ... e=cantwell

Yes, Cantwell has been quite adept at stealing positions from Jay Inslee. Her understanding of biofuels is minute at best, and she could not stand up to even basic questioning on the topic at the convention.

Quote:
Similar strong bio-fuel positions are posted for most Washington Start federal office holders, both Democrat and Republican. It is a non-partisan issue.

Many state politicians are being blinded by large federal subsidies while ignoring the massive environmental catastrophe that biofuels in their current forms represent. This is slowly changing as the facts come out.

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Bio-fuels are not a 100% solution to our nation’s energy needs they are but a part of the solution. To discount them off-handedly however is short sighted to say the least.

Biofuels in thier current form are not even a 1% solution. In their current form they add to our problems. There will never be a 'crop' style biofuel solution, there is simply no way to do so on the available farmland we possess, and attempting to do so would destroy our water supply.

That said, you are correct that biofuels need not be discounted entirely. As pointed out previously, there is hope in algae and bacterial biofuel sources, and when we get the silliness that crop based biofuels represent out of the way, the research money can be spent where it actually has a chance of succeeding.

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 Post subject: Re: Washington State Bio-Fuels Positions
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:11 am 
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Double post. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:39 pm 
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AAhhhhhuuuggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I swear Reflex, I think you work for big oil!!!

That's all I will say.

I just.... noo I won't do it!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:22 pm 
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DadsDiesel wrote:
AAhhhhhuuuggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I swear Reflex, I think you work for big oil!!!

That's all I will say.

I just.... noo I won't do it!


Amen!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:43 am 
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Actually I work for the software industry. But yes, its fun to try to discredit someone by attacking them personally rather than coming up with facts.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:00 am 
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And at the same time, Reflex you are also attacking the messenger - without addressing the facts.

in the 'CRD's Jeep/Chrylser' should build thread - you dismissed a Web site saying it's not credible - it's on the lunatic fringe with an agenda.

and they had data and an analysis - and you made no attempt to dispute either. Only that they were a conservative think tank.

That doesn't mean they're wrong - it does mean you have to use more care in analyzing the data.

you've argued that peer review research should be the standard - and the references I've see you post were Wiki - or Political.

If you have a peer reviewed analysis paper - please post the reference.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:16 am 
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Quote:
Reflex said: Cowcatcher - And some of us like to imply that we are in touch with the workings of the Democratic party and elected officials, when in fact we are nothing more than a committeeperson for a district. Not that there is anything wrong with that job, mind you, but its a bit presumptuous to imply that you are somehow more in the know than any other party member who participates at the precinct/district level.


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Reflex said: Actually I work for the software industry. But yes, its fun to try to discredit someone by attacking them personally rather than coming up with facts.


Go ask Alice when she's ten feet tall.

Since you joined in January Reflex I don't recall a single post where you have offered anything to further or support driving and fixing Jeep Liberty's or Jeep Liberty CRD's. You seem to have come here with one simple goal, to discredit any use of biofuels. Yours is simply a user profile here that matches no other active participant. Perhaps you would like to explain what your intent is here if not to discredit others...often with bogus information and often with personal attacks.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:24 pm 
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ATXKJ - I don't see why I'd be in a position to 'prove' something that is commonly accepted knowledge. There is zero debate about NOX anywhere from the EPA to atmospheric scientists nor chemistry scientists. I didn't make the extraordinary claim, so there really isn't anything for me to prove. I also was not the one who pointed out that the website was a biased think tank, that was Threeweight, I simply acknowledged that and agreed with his point of view, giving a couple examples why one single study cannot discredit a entire field or body of evidence.

Cowcatcher - I purchased a CRD and have found several guides here useful(MAP sensor specificially). Since I am actively involved in the biofuel debate politically, I tend to chime in on those conversations. I am not an automotive engineer, so I don't really contribute to those discussions, however I don't see a requirement in the membership rules for a person to be a mechanic if they wish to participate. Yes, I am anti-biofuel FOR THE TIME BEING, because it is socially irresponsible and a major detriment to the environment.

My significant other is a scientist, specifically a zoologist with a focus on wildlife ecology with a second focus on agriculture. Through here, I am very tuned into the issue and its problems. Because this is the internet, there is no way for me to go and 'prove' my credentials, especially against the 'backyard mechanic' mentality that pervades internet discussions. Everyone tends to mistake something that they can do in their garage for a great mass market idea, when in reality if you scale things up to a large scale there are costs that you simply do not encounter at the individual level. My goal is to make certain we do not jump from the frying pan into the fire. I support the long term use of biofuels, I simply do not support crop based approaches because of several issues I have raised repeatedly and had dismissed rather than addressed by several individuals on this forum.

It especially concerns me when people such as you who are in a position of potential influence do not even see fit to research the issues, instead simply dismissing people like myself as industry shills, regardless of the fact that I have no part of or attachment to the industry in question. How would you feel if in twenty years we have jumped headlong in to what could be the greatest environmental catastrophe this country has ever faced, and it was all in the name of environmentalism and freedom from big oil? That is what we are facing with CURRENT biofuel techniques. Remember, for every gallon of ethanol produced, three gallons of drinking water are consumed. There is less drinkable water on the planet earth than there is oil. You do the math.

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 Post subject: Biofuels
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:30 am 
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I guess I don't understand how biofuels are a detremental to
the environment.
Is is the growing of (pesticides, fertilizers and such)?
Or is it the burning of.

Electric vehicles are not any better because they are still plugged into a
grid supplied by burning coal. Nuke power provides for clean air but
has more long term storage problems (all of which can be fixed).
Wind power hurts the birds and is not pleasing to the eye.
Hydroelectric prevents fish from swimming up/down stream.
Geothermal chews up precious wildlife areas that are also dependant on
the heat created below ground to support their ecosystem.
Solar power cannot support all the electricity demands of industry,
commerce, residents, and transportation. (and doesn't work as well at
night)

So it's just a matter of picking your poison. You can analyze anything
to death and find reasons why it is bad.

CF bulbs contain mercury.
Storage batteries contain harmful chemicals.
And so on...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:23 pm 
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The largest issue with biofuels from a human perspective are that they consume vast quantities of drinkable water. You cannot irrigate a farm with seawater, and you cannot process organic matter into fuel with saltwater either. Both processes require huge amounts of drinkable water. That is a major problem, many countries are perpetually in drought, and some are past a 'tipping point' where they simply cannot supply their entire populations with water. The US is roughly 60 years from a severe water crisis as we drain the Great Plains Aquifer, which is the primary water supply for US farming, when it is gone the midwest will essentially become a desert.

Outside of human concerns is the required cropland. If ALL of the farmland in the world were utilized purely for biofuel production, the biofuel produced would cover roughly 10% of just the United States needs. Thats assuming no need for growing food. It can never be a serious solution on a large scale, its simply not possible. We consume far too much in this nation alone to have a crop based solution.

Europe has moved towards Biofuels in a large way, requiring 10% of their fuel consumption to be bio based by I believe 2020. The result has been mass deforestation of southeast asia, up to 80% in some nations ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18332282/ ), countries like Brazil have slashed and burned millions of acres of rainforest to feed their Ethanol thirst.

You are also correct that fertilizers, pesticides, genetically modified crops, and other components of the modern mechanized farming system are serious detriments to environmental health. Ultimatly though, the largest question that should be asked about biofuels is "Does it work?"

I'll let Cornell and Berkley universities answer that for you: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Jul ... y.ssl.html

Quote:
"There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable."

Hmm, perhaps its just slightly off and needs a bit of adjustment? Lets see the numbers:
Quote:
In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol production, the study found that:

- corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
- switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
- wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

- soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
- sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

Uh oh, its not even close. He MUST be an oil industry shill, right? Lets see what he says about future power so we can discern his oil company roots:
Quote:
Although Pimentel advocates the use of burning biomass to produce thermal energy (to heat homes, for example), he deplores the use of biomass for liquid fuel. "The government spends more than $3 billion a year to subsidize ethanol production when it does not provide a net energy balance or gain, is not a renewable energy source or an economical fuel. Further, its production and use contribute to air, water and soil pollution and global warming," Pimentel says. He points out that the vast majority of the subsidies do not go to farmers but to large ethanol-producing corporations.

"Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's energy security, its agriculture, economy or the environment," says Pimentel. "Ethanol production requires large fossil energy input, and therefore, it is contributing to oil and natural gas imports and U.S. deficits." He says the country should instead focus its efforts on producing electrical energy from photovoltaic cells, wind power and burning biomass and producing fuel from hydrogen conversion.

Gee, he dosen't sound like he's advocating oil either, does he?

Sorry for the sarcastic tone there, I just think some people need to read more than the diesel vehicle forums for their information on energy. Its frustrating to see the level of ignorance displayed on the subject, often trumpeted. Studies like this are all over the place, it is not even that hard to find. Studies demonstrating an energy postive tend to either ignore all costs in the process(for instance the fact that ethanol must be transported by vehicle rather than pipeline), or utilize 'best case' scenerios that simply will never be achieved in the real world.

Do some research on the topic. Environmental groups are quickly distancing themselves from biofuels, many at the grassroots of the political parties are starting to see the mistake. Politicians promoting them are in my experience seeing the dollar signs that three billion in subsidies represent for their districts, typically agriculture districts, or come from states where their large campaign contributers are corporations like Archer-Daniels Midland and Monosato.

A quick guide to the environmental dangers can be found in the articles collected at this site: http://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/index.php

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:41 pm 
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Its really easy to discredit nearly any single source of alternative energy, its also just as easy to discredit nearly every bit of research that has been done:

Oops! Looks like Pimentels research partner might be influenced.

http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/ucoil.html


but thats besides the point.

What do you think should be done, I have seen enough of "this wont work" and its getting old.

Do you have a suggestion on a solution? Consider using alternative sources to produce other alternative sources of energy... Is there a combination that will work? Im sure you have done lots more research than myself on the issue. What is your honest opinion?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:15 pm 
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Well, I see several solutions. But it would require long term vision, something politicians, with a 2-6 year term simply cannot afford.

Here are some points that I think are mandatory in order to see a energy independent future with a better environmental track record -

Short term -

- Immediatly start building Fischer-Tropsch plants. The US is coal rich, and while FT did not make a lot of sense when oil was $15/barrel, it makes a ton of sense now that its $60+. According to the governor of Montana, FT can produce oil at a cost of about $35/barrel. The US has enough coal to provide for our oil needs for roughly 120 years based on known coal deposits. While I do not think we should use it that long, the point to doing so would be to decouple our foreign policy from the needs of oil producing countries. I also feel this coal should be managed as a public resource, with no ability to export it(domestic use only). Info on TF here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process

- Redirect the approximatly $3 billion in biofuel subsidies to biofuel research. I do NOT believe that there is no solution to be found in biofuel, I simply believe that the current solutions do more harm than good. An excellent example of the potential future of biofuel lies in algae-based biodiesel. It can be grown in saltwater, which the earth has plenty of, and requires nothing more than a steady supply of nitrates, which we currently dispose of. It can also be used as a CO2 scrubber in coal plants to clean up thier emissions, with the algae being harvested periodically for fuel. Algae is one of the most efficient users of solar power, and is a far more direct way to harness that power than crop-based solutions, which require far more human involvement to grow, and far more resources to process into fuel. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algacultur ... rgy_source

- Tax credits for diesel vehicles. Take those credits that are going towards hybrids(ultimatly a higher energy usage vehicle due to production energy costs) and instead apply them towards a truly more efficient engine design(diesel). If people switched over tommorrow we would immediatly drop our fuel consumption by roughly 30%. While I know that won't happen, encouraging people to switch would benefit the country tremendously.

- Re-considering the EPA priorities with regards to NOX vs. other emissions. I think we are all on the same page here. I would NOT want to return to the days of NOX causing smog alerts around the country, but I also feel that Europe has managed to encourage diesel while keeping NOX under control. There is little reason we could not do the same. The roughly 50% of thier population that drives diesel reduces their fuel consumption by 15% as a whole.

Long term -

- Start building nuclear reactors. Especially waste reprocessing capable reactor sites. Today's nuclear waste is tommorrow's nuclear fuel. France, China and several other nations are building modern, safe reactors for their needs, in fact France is completely energy independent as a result. It does not have to be dangerous(remember the Navy operates dozens floating on the ocean in nuclear powered carriers and submarines without ever having an incident), and rather than storing waste, we simply need to reprocess it back into fuel. The November of 2005 issue of Scientific American had an overview of waste reprocessing written by Clinton's former energy secretary, I highly reccomend looking it up. Nuclear waste is only a problem because of the lack of development in this nation on reprocessing technologies, its simply not an issue elsewhere in the world, paticularly Europe.

- More extensive research in the area of energy. The US puts less than one half of one percent of its federal budget into science and research. By comparison, 56% is spent on social programs for people who are no longer contributing to GDP(social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment, etc). Another 9% is spent on interest on the national debt. I am not calling for a vast cut in social spending, but it seems ridiculous that basic research, which is what will build the economy of the future has such a miniscule slice of the pie compared to those who are simply on the recieving end of the government expenditures. Our priorities need to be adjusted if we want to even have a future as an economic power. We need to treat the energy crisis much like we treated the Manhatten Project and the Moon race. A good step in the right direction is the New Apollo Energy Initiative, which is fairly agnostic about the research it aims to fund, but gives science a bit higher profile among our national objectives. More info here: http://www.apolloalliance.org/

- Make conservation a national priority. All the rest of this aside, quite simply americans must learn to conserve both energy and water. I do realize however that this may be a pointless statement. Few people give a darn.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:30 pm 
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You have definitely provided some useful information for those who are researching for themselves. I’m a investor and also learn from oil and energy experts and futurists concerning future energy. Ulysses, Kansas (where we live) is building an ETHANOL PLANT. They extract the cellulose from corn for fuel and give the protein to the cattle. Even though E85 isn’t the way of the future, the Government has pushed the issue hard enough to make it work for several years to come. Coal, as proven through various tests, has shown to be some of the best diesel fuel on the market and provide enough fuel for many years to come. I support everything to be converted back to organic. I’m a organic beekeeper and have seen how Genetic modified plants and pesticides/herbicides have hindered the bee population and other insect populations. BIO fuels will work, but it has to be ECO friendly.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:38 pm 
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Being DIRECTLY involved in this issue since I am a Midwest farmer with a crop to sell, I applaud all of you who want to use biofuels. It is driving my corn and soybean prices up! Yahoo!

Now seriously, the biofuel idea is nice as long as it is market driven. There is so much of a shell game going on with this. The government is spending YOUR money to do something that will not solve anything and makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy. There will never be enough vegetation to make a serious dent in the demand for oil. Coal liquification is probably the best option at the moment, but again, government intervention is placing obstacles in the way for it's growth. The Governor of WV along with the Governor of MT have tried to get things going and have been blocked at almost every turn from getting the ball rolling, even though it is shown that coal liquification is very cost effective on its own (without spending your tax dollars like biofuels) in today's market.

We have a fair amount of oil reserves in N.A. that we haven't even tapped yet and probably won't due to political interests. Even though the environmental imprint of drilling is way smaller than only a few years ago. It only takes a few acres of surface to tap into a 5 mile wide area, with sideways drilling and other technology.

The only solutions that will work will be the ones that are driven by the consumer. I won't trust a government employee to solve this. After all, the Dept of Agriculture, out of each $1 in taxes designated for this, can only get $.05 worth of food stamps to those that need them.

I use biofuels sometimes and applaud its use by others, and not just because it benefits me. I have been buying biofuels off and on since the '70's. It was available here decades before it became the latest political cause celeb. And it was market driven at that time and funded primarily by agriculture interests and not tax dollars. That is the way it should be!!!

The best short term solution is for people to quite driving like idiots. I am not saying everyone needs to go 55 mph. But reducing driving styles like, uh let's see.... flooring it when the light changes just to make it to the next stop light and repeating the process thru town, Continual speeding up/slowing down just because a driver feels the need to crawl up the other vehicle's back side, Knowing that exit ramp is only a quarter mile away so a driver feels the need to floor it and get around everyone before he exits. I see this everyday at all hours since I drive a semi. If moderation was used, we could easily save almost 10% in fuel and we wouldn't have to drive 55 to do it. I have proven this time and time again driving both my semi and my Liberty CRD. My fuel mileage has consistently been 10% or more better than the industry average and I still drive 65 most of the time. Most semi's are only getting 5.5 - 6 mpgs on average. I have been consistently getting around 7 mpg on average for the last decade, thereby saving me almost $7K a year in fuel costs. No snake oil, no fancy modifications. Just sensible driving. Oh, and I consistently get in the high 20's and even breaking 30 mpg (on road trips) with my Liberty CRD. Only a couple of CHEAP modifications and driving 65-70. Got 30.3 this last weekend 800 mile road trip.

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Last edited by Cowpie1 on Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:01 pm 
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I don't disagree Cowpie but even if we dent the import of off shore oil by 10% that is a start toward alternatives. Lets face it we are spending about 2 billion a week on a mideast oil subsidy and getting nothing but grief for it. Americans are also spoiled by an over abundance of cheap food while lots of small farmers invest huge capital to reap few benefits besides keeping the family farm going. I would prefer that American farmers benefit from biofuel subsidies than giving my tax dollars to sheiks and Halliburton.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:17 pm 
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Well, cowcatcher, I can't argue with that. If we are bound and determined to spend the taxpayer's money, at least spend it here. Hard to argue with that.

But, I think, we can agree that we need to look at a lot of alternatives and not put too many of our eggs in the biofuels basket thinking it will solve all our problems. I am for TOTAL energy independence and let the rest of the world struggle with the problem. I believe we can achieve energy independence and not cause a total disruption to our economy and standard of living. I just wish sensible minds would prevail in D.C.

Now that is unattainable probably.

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2006 Liberty CRD, Frankenlift II, Al's A Arms, Moog LBJ's, GDE tune, Etechno GX3123 Glow plugs, Fumoto drain valve, Elephant hose CCV mod.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:15 pm 
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Two points to be made -

1) Even if ALL cropland in the US was dedicated to biofuel production, with no regard for growing crops themselves and we started importing all food, biofuels would account for around 5% of our fuel supply by most estimates.

2) Due to the fact that we use mechanized farming in the US, in the overall picture we would increase our total fuel consumption even if around 5% of our drivers are using biofuels. That means the net result is that our dependence on foreign oil has increased.

How is that a solution in any sense of the word? Cowpie has the right idea, coal gassification is the short term solution. The medium term solution is research on next generation biofuels(cellulose ethanol/algae biodiesel). the long term solution is electric cars, but that won't happen without widespread nuclear power and serious advancements in battery technologies.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Location: Mooresville, NC
Even if you have as many nuke plants as you could wish, and affordable advanced chemistry batteries to give you a 200 or 300 mile range per charge, there's still one stumbling block to prevent pure electrics from being anything more than local commuter vehicles.

The amount of time it takes to recharge the battery pack. A 6 to 8 hour recharge time every 200 miles isn't conducive to long trips. And that's providing you can find a high capacity source of electricity at your recharge point. A 120 V 15 amp house outlet just ain't gonna cut it.

A truly efficient purpose-built electric, or EV, such as GM's late EV-1,will use around 150 whrs/mile. That translates to roughly 6.5 miles per kwhr. To get a 200 mile range, the battery pack would have to have a useable capacity of nearly 31 kwhrs.

A 120V 15 amp outlet has a max output of 1.8 kw, or basically 1.8 kwhrs in one hour. It would take over 17 HOURS to recharge this 200 mile battery pack from this size outlet, and that would be assuming a perfect power factor on the charger and no conversion losses.

What about a 240V 50 amp outlet, usually the max size you could find readily accessible to the public, such as at an RV park? That would be a capacity of 12 kwhrs in one hour. In this case, it would take a hair under 3 HOURS to recharge this battery pack, again assuming a perfect charger and no conversion losses.

And in both cases, if you try to pull power right at the max rating for the outlet for any length of time, much less hours at a time, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts you'll end up tripping the associated breaker. So in real world conditions, it would take even longer than stated above.

To even do a 15 minute quick charge, which some companies have tried to develop fast chargers for, you'd need an electrical source capable of cranking out over 120 kw to be able to crank out 31 kwhrs in 15 minutes. That equates to a 440 V 270 amp power source. Might as well drive straight up to the nuke plant to be able to find an electrical connection with that capacity.

You could have a tow-behind trailer with a generator on it for long distance trips, but then you'd simply be reinventing the hybrid.

Back in my younger days while still in the Navy, I was a member of both SEVA (Seattle Electric Vehicle Association) and NOPEC (Northern Olympic Peninsula Electric Cars), and a member of the national Electric Vehicle Association. I still have a battery-only electric '81 Ford Courier pickup truck that I purchased out in WA State back in '94. So, in effect, I've been there, done that, and have the t-shirt.

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