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 Post subject: Scam?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:37 pm 
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I've read here where it seems most people think the Water-4-Gas modification (or Hydroxy generators)is a scam. Do some research, you will find that it is not. Big oil has and is doing all it can to inject disinformation into the internet to discourage this technology, and for good reasons...Their greed for your money. If you do your research, you will find out what I found out.
The system works this way:
The hydroxy generator is composed of a container with stainless steel electrodes of varying designs, some are more effective than others, but they all do the same thing, manufacture Hydroxy gas. Hydroxy gas is made up of 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. The system is powered by your autos electrical system. Some people use variable voltage converters to regulate the amount of current going to the system to regulate the amounts of Hydroxy generated and to regulate the heat produced by the system. The hydroxy gas is then fed to the bottom of a bubbler (a container filled with water) to lightly clean the gas of impurities and to prevent flashback to the system. Then it is fed into either the intake or the vacumm, or both. Gas fed into the vacuum facilitates the idle circuit and gas fed into the intake serves its purpose during acceleration.
Now, just installing a Hydroxy generator on your 95 or newer vehicle will not do much for increasing you miles per gallon but will definatly increase the power. Hydroxy gas is approximately 130 octane. And being that gasoline in your engine is about 30 to 40% efficient ( the rest of the unburned fuel either is wasted into the exhaust or the engine) the addition of Hydroxy to your engine significantly
increases the amount of gas being utilized., which in turn is converted into energy.
The milage gains come in when you add a map sensor adjuster and/or a oxygen sensor adjuster, (The oxygen sensor sees hydroxy as oxygen and inturn the computer adds even more fuel)
I know there are unbelievable claims out there saying you can increase your milage 50% or more, and some people swear by it, but I have found that with the right system, and good adjusting of your sensors, you can see a minimum of 15 to 25% gains.
15 to 25% is not a bad return on an investment of $150 to $300 and even much less if you build it yourself.

Go check out some videos on youtube..just search "hydrogen or hydroxy"
Also, there are many systems available on ebay, thats a good place to see what they look like and see all the different ways people are building them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:28 am 
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I know this is my first post here, and I'm a month late; but you guys are kidding right? I mean seriously, did anyone take HS chemistry, much less CH101 or something?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:06 am 
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There were a lot of responses on the first post - but I guess no one paid attention to the new comments - so I'll add a Wiki post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

It's the Law - even energy company conspiracy theories don't override it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:16 pm 
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MaineSleddah wrote:
Water injection systems have been used on the drag strips for years guys. I work with a guy who made his own and drags a buick grand national 3.8l supercharged motor and water injection boosted horse power 30%...
Food for thought.


Ok, I'll point it out.

They don't use water injection on dragsters because it gives them better mileage and because they get some magical fuel out of the water. They use it because it COOLS THE ENGINE. It helps prevent detonation so that they can then advance the timing even further on the ignition than they could without it. That is what really gave your buddy the 30% power increase. It was the cooling qualities of the water which allowed him to advance the timing and run a higher charge pressure with his supercharger. The water itself did not provide any kind of power boost. But the higher fuel/air charge density he was able to use did.

It's similar with NOS, the only reason it works is because of the cooling effect of the N2O gonig from liquid to gas as it is injected into the air stream, otherwise the extra fuel and oxygen that is along for the ride would cause your engine to melt in a matter of seconds.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:49 pm 
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my last 2 cents are, you dont use water for fuel, shoot steam cars dont even really use water for fuel, you use hydrogen. and that my frinds sends rockets to space...
and this mazda down the road
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7073.html
and this sweet sports car (production model)
http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/

need we really say more? my set up cost under $80

libo's are nice, nicer with 25 mpg...

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 Post subject: HHO, I will let you know how it works...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:30 am 
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Hey guys...first post after my intro. I always like to step into the thick of it I guess....*S*

I will be installing a system next week or the week after with a local developer. He has installed it is several autos and diesel tractors. He preliminary results are a 25% increase in power and a 50% increase in mileage. The Hydrogen works by by creating a more efficient explosion so less fuel is left unburned...so more bang for the buck.

I tried it on a Honda Hybrid Civic but the engine runs lean in the hybrid already due to the electrical assist so the benefits didn't pan out (I still get 50 mpg with the car but was hoping for 65....guess I am selfish)

I will get my money back if the unit doesn't perform as expected and the guy is local and wants to stay on top of it. It always take a few tankfuls to work because the carbon deposits are attacked by the HHO. Within three weeks my exhaust pipe will or should be clean..all metal no carbon deposits....so I am told. A friend has the system installed in his car.

I'll let you know if it works or not.....I drive 350 miles a week for work and could sure use the 40 mpg....I get 28 with the diesel now...

My plan is to combine the biodiesel and hydrogen and make less fuel and wave at the gas station as I go by!!!! Another perk is I get to drill my first hole and make it mine....I like that thought...

Jim
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Durring WW2 the brits used water injection on their fighter planes for more power with
success, so thats been around for a long time


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:20 pm 
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4x4fever wrote:
Durring WW2 the brits used water injection on their fighter planes for more power with
success, so thats been around for a long time
Like stated before it was used for cooling only,cooling made it possible for a denseier air/fuel charge that equals more power.

Quote:
go5dune

my last 2 cents are, you dont use water for fuel, shoot steam cars dont even really use water for fuel, you use hydrogen. and that my frinds sends rockets to space...
and this mazda down the road
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7073.html
and this sweet sports car (production model)
http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/

need we really say more? my set up cost under $80

libo's are nice, nicer with 25 mpg...
UUMMMM.................

where do you think the most hydrogen is located? (little hint----water)

Oh and a gasser KJ can achieve upto 25mpg on it's own,there are some here that already get that or are close.Being only 2wd helps but a well maintained(and stock) KJ will get good mpg's.Heck I was getting just shy of 23mpg's before any major mods(for offroad) on my KJ while towing 3000lbs.

All that junk is just plan snake oil,you'll end up destroying your engine and you will be spending more $$$ in the long run trying that junk.If it worked it would have been a standard option on vehicles already,since it is not,well you know the rst(it doesn't work).


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 Post subject: 2 Weeks Running with HHO.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:34 pm 
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Update on the HHO system installed:

The soot around the exhaust pipe has gone from an 1/8th flaky collection of sooty yuck to smooth black thin coating. All HHO systems always say 2 tankfuls of fuel to clean out the engine. I am almost at 700 miles. I haven't seen any mileage increase as yet. We even installed a larger HHO generator to speed up the cleaning of the engine, exhaust, egr, map and all components. Wish the Provent filter would come so I can start to remove the oil from the turbo system and CAC...

We expect to see it next week or will begin to adjust the ratio of HHO to Engine size. The installer has found a ratio for L of HHO to Engine Size for gasoline vehicles. He expects the diesel will need a bit more because the fuel is a bit heftier(my term).

This in not about water injection...it is about providing an additional catalyst for more efficient burning of the fuel with the result of more bang for the buck....

More to come...

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 Post subject: Re: water for fuel!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:17 am 
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Hood297 wrote:
what do yall think of this?

I think its a scam. I dont think the claims made could be factual.


maybe someone knows more than I do about it.

http://www.water-4-fuel.com/


That particular website is a flat-out scam. You can easily find info on how to build an HHO generator, and to a much better design than their mason jar POS they show, for FREE if you do a simple Google search. But that particular company is interested in only one thing - separating people with no technical knowledge on the subject (ie, gullible) from their money.

I've seen credible research over the years that shows adding hydrogen to the intake on a diesel engine does provide beneficial effects regarding power and fuel mileage.

But again, the particular company in the link above is nothing but a rip-off operation.

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 Post subject: Re: water for fuel!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:30 am 
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retmil46 wrote:
I've seen credible research over the years that shows adding hydrogen to the intake on a diesel engine does provide beneficial effects regarding power and fuel mileage.


If you've see credible research - I'd like to see it.
links? references?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:08 pm 
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One from a quick Google search -

http://www.fisita.com/students/congress ... s/sc11.pdf

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Interesting - Thanks

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:23 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:


Anyone can make anything and put it on the internet. Not everything on the internet is true. You need to consult a PEER REVIEWED scientific article from a journal, not Google or Wikipedia.

HHO is a crock. #1) The additional power/efficiency theory violates the laws of physics. You can't use electrical power generated by the engine via the alternator to electrolyze water into HHO, then burn said HHO and expect additional energy to come from an extra dimension. At best the reaction would have to be 100% efficient (and no reaction is 100% efficient) to break even on energy input/output. HHO generators claim that the reaction is over 100% efficient, which is impossible. #2) Additional heat only hurts the performance of an internal combustion engine, and could damage the engine itself.

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 Post subject: How much unused fuel is left over after ignition...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:37 pm 
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VT...you are absolutely right and many of the systems sold give people the impression that it is the burning HHO that gives the additional power and mileage. The HHO combines with the fuel so more of it gets burned...hence increasing efficiency of the ignition. The result is a net gain even with the engine using more power to generate the electricity (on my system it is equivalent to a head light).

That said, I have not seen any improvement in mileage yet...still cleaning out the junk. Hope to see some this week as we are adjusting the HHO amount to the correct fuel air ratio.

I do not believe the HHO industry has a marketable product as yet. To many variables to account for...emissions sensors, fuel air ratio, over use of HHO that actually gets worse mileage. If this system does not work after another few weeks, I will join you as a nay-sayer.....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Actually HHO as fuel - violates the 1st law of Thermodynamics i.e. trying to get more energy out of a system than you put in.

however - that's not the claim - the claim is that H2 added to the mix improves the combustion process - I'm not sold on that either but the article referenced has some good data.

I've worked with H2 enough - that I'm not sure any of the HHO systems are really getting H2 anywhere close to the cylinder, but you might be doing something else.

you will not get peer-reviewed articles on automobiles - that tends to be reserved for quarks and spin - auto's aren't impressive enough. The best bet is SAE and the paper referenced is SAE - although Bulgarian and 04 - I would like to see some of the responses. So it was interesting enough to Google and read some links - doesn't mean I buy it - but I might read about it.

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 Post subject: Hydrogen
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:28 am 
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The hydrogen produced by an HHO generator is extremely reactive. Far more reactive than gasoline or diesel. It will be the first thing consumed in an oxidation reaction, thus binding up all of the hydrogen and oxygen produced by electrolysis and negating any potential effects.

H2O + energy (electrical) -> H2 + O + energy (heat). Take the hydrogen and oxygen out of the equation, becuase they're on both sides of the equation they cancel out. The resulting equation just convert electrical energy to heat. Thermodynamics tells us that energy cannot be created, or destroyed, but can only change forms. It also tells us that no reaction is 100% efficient. Knowing this, and the facts that the electricity used is being generated bye the internal combustion engine (ICE), and that additional heat is of no benefit to the ICE, HHO generation is proven ineffective, period.

(I've seen some other equations where H2O + energy (electrical) -> H + H + O + energy (heat); this is false because H is more reactive than H2 and will bind with itself nanoseconds after formation. The other equation is H2O + energy (electrical) -> H(+) + OH(-) + energy (heat); this one is false because it is ionic, and ionic coumpounds can only exist in solution (i.e. water) and the secon a gas bubble is produced, this equation is no longer applicable.).

There is no way that HHO generation does anything but rob your engine of a minimal amount of power used to electrolyze water, and create addition heat of no benefit.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:26 am 
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actually using an electrolysis reactor to produce aquafuel and feeding it into your air intake can help improve milage, i'm getting maybe 10+with my current setp and building a new one for maybe like a 50% increase in milage.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:16 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:


Yes, and if you actually READ that study, which I did, it shows CHANGES in the combustion process, but it does not demonstrate anything useful, and it does say that they put saw an increase in smoke, which suggests an increase in unburned fuel, specifically the diesel component, and THAT, boys and girls, suggests a DECREASE in efficiency, hence lower mileage, not higher.

So, if anything, the referenced paper suggests to me that they've just successfully proven Brown's gas, HHO, or whatever you want to call it, is bogus.

But then the Laws of Themodynamics already said that, didn't they?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:49 am 
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jeepkj02 wrote:
This just proves how desperate people are...I mean come on! Your truck is NEVER going to get 30MPG!! If you want that kind of miles get a prius or something. People are so stupid!! :roll:


29 mpg with a bent front fork and lousey alignment...now that it is cold, I am down to 25/26...much better than the 19-21 I ran last winter. I'll take it.

I have an HHO generator installed. More power, better response. I can tell when it needs cleaning by the difference in the engine.

There are a bunch of rip off artists out there and there isn't really a marketable system that doesn't need tinkering with more than most are comfy with. The principle is sound.

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