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 Post subject: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:32 am 
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My son, a mechanical engineering student at a top-ten engineering college, is in the process of making a very simple device that converts water to hydrogen, and uses the hydrogen to suplement any IC engine, including turbo diesels.

Even though the technology and design are several years old, the big auto makers won't pick up on it because there is no economic future, or sustainable "dependence", for any corporation (such as with fuel stations) to make more money from. You simply fill the small tank with any kind of water, add 20 to 60 amps at 12v through spaced and ordered stainless plates, an walla! Hydrogen! Increases between 50% and 300% in mpg can be expected.

This is so simple it is unbelievable! But its true. The inventor of the technology patented it around ten years ago. He was subsequently offered $1,000,000,000.00 cash by the oil shieks for the patent rights. He refused. The next day, he died of "food poisoning". Don't believe it? Google "run your car on water". Believe it. My son's home-made device works on his 2003 Cavalier.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:35 am 
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Well at a 'top-ten engineering college' - he'll eventually get to take Thermodynamics and be able to calculate his wasted effort.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:56 pm 
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GML,
I just started giving hydrogen boost a serious look a couple of weeks ago. I see a lot of hype and also a myriad of naysayers. I have seen what I consider enough credible evidence to investigate further.
Keep us posted,
Clint

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:05 am 
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ATXKJ wrote:
Well at a 'top-ten engineering college' - he'll eventually get to take Thermodynamics and be able to calculate his wasted effort.


You hit the nail on the head, this is complete and total BS. Google doesn't verify facts, link it to my in a peer reviewed science journal and then you've got me on board.

Also, in the medical community, there is no such thing as "food poisoning". There are a large number of food bourne pathogens, and chemical contaminants that can cause "food poisoning" symptoms. A cause of death would have been listed as samonelosis, hemolytic uremia syndrom, botulinum poisoning, ect. The FDA takes deaths from "food poisoning" very serious and who ever listed the CoD as food poisoning is required by law to report it to the local health departments, who then report it to the CDC. An exhaustive investigation would have been launched.

Rumor has it they have pills out there that will make your pecker bigger, burn fat and increase your IQ. Send me $1000 for more information.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

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 Post subject: Hydrogen helps the fuel burn more effectively...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:45 am 
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The main argument against HHO is the assumption that the engine uses the HHO instead of fuel to run. The onboard generators add the HHO to the fuel via the injectors to enhance the burning of the fuel. All the fuel that goes out as heat and unburned emissions is the % of unused energy. When combined with the HHO, the fuel burns almost at 100% with little or no emissions.

My engine is running cooler right now. A full marker on the temp gauge. Wish I had a ScanGauge to tell you exactly what the temperature is running at. I noticed a definite difference in power. At this point no mileage increase. That usually takes a while because the HHO attacks the unburned carbon deposits and cleans them out of the system also.

If the system isn't proving its worth in a month....I will post the results, take my soapbox home and just make biofuel.....

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Hydrogen helps the fuel burn more effectively...
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:03 am 
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jmoomaw wrote:
The main argument against HHO is the assumption that the engine uses the HHO instead of fuel to run. The onboard generators add the HHO to the fuel via the injectors to enhance the burning of the fuel. All the fuel that goes out as heat and unburned emissions is the % of unused energy. When combined with the HHO, the fuel burns almost at 100% with little or no emissions.


Sorry, Big Guy, but if the hydrocarbon fuel injected burned with only 99% efficiency, the vehicle would be a VERY effective smokescreen generator. The POSSIBLE improvement here is a fractional percentage, not even measureable without seriously accurate equipment and very careful technique.

But man, the placebo effect can be huge.

jmoomaw wrote:
My engine is running cooler right now. A full marker on the temp gauge. Wish I had a ScanGauge to tell you exactly what the temperature is running at. I noticed a definite difference in power. At this point no mileage increase. That usually takes a while because the HHO attacks the unburned carbon deposits and cleans them out of the system also.


If true, this would suggest LOWER efficiency, not higher. A cooler running engine will result in an INCREASE in fuel consumption. Ask anyone who has ever replaced a failed-open thermostat.

As for the cleaned out carbon deposits business, that would be a function of the small amount of water the HHO system would deliver as part of the gasses it passed to the intake, not a function of any hydrogen or oxygen.

jmoomaw wrote:
If the system isn't proving its worth in a month....I will post the results, take my soapbox home and just make biofuel.....

Jim


If, in fact, if any measurable improvement in mileage is possible, it would be due to the inevitable small water droplets carried over into the intake, not to any hydrogen or oxygen. While it is true that the ENGINE running cooler results in lower mileage, a lowering of the peak combustion temperature
(but ONLY the peak temperature, and only if it is a SLIGHT lowering) will improve performance slightly. The upshot of all this is that the electrolysis of water is completely unnecessary. All that is needed to get the small improvement these systems sometimes show is the injection of a tiny amount of water. And the reason it isn't done is that the improvement is tiny relative to the costs and pain-in-the-butt factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:42 am 
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You can say all you want...all I know is the increase in power is obvious....at this point the increase in mileage...20% is pretty impressive, and the odor of the exhaust is totally different and almost breathable.

I do not have the equipment or the time to give the spherical data that can answer your questions. Some of the principles around efficiency shirt (high temp of engine) because the hydrogen adds to a more efficient burn when it explodes and combines with what unused fuel would be left over under normal conditions. Unfortunately, the field is currently advocated by people who are garage tinkerers....

When the generator isn't running right, I notice a big difference in power, response and breaking (I have to take me foot off the accelerator sooner with extra power). If I didn't bend the front suspension, I would be averaging 35 mpg with my 20% increase in mileage.

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:28 am 
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Hydrogen boosting can do wonders for a CRD (in the same way Propane or Natural Gas boosting can). But people who have actually put decades of research into the subject have narrowed the range of necessary hydrogen to between 5-7% of the total BTU that are consumed. Do the math, there is no way that the hydrogen produced from an on board electrolyzer can supply the necessary hydrogen to make a difference. It would take more amperage than your alternator is capable, probably 4-5X more, to produce a significant quantity of hydrogen. You need hi PSI, read 5,000, tanks and a place to get them filled if you want to do this economically and practically. You will spend more than an onboard brown's gas system, but you will actually get the real results you are looking for. Check out recent, in the last year or so, issues of diesel power magazine, they have had several features of people running propane injection with good results. Hydrogen should get you similar results if you tinker with it enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:20 am 
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I am sure you are right about the 5-7%....I am curious what the math is. Any information would be helpful to my inventor. Any reference material he would also love to see....

My math is pretty simple....when the generator is running....I get 4-5 more miles per gallon, no black smoke and more power. I have never measured the liters per hour just kept track of mileage.

There are generators and then there are generators. I use a box 10"(H)x15'(L)x8"(W). I use well water or softened water with Tums tablets. My guy will never touch KOH or NaOH because he believes even with a water bath, the vapors will get into the system and damaged the internal components of the engine. I wrap it with a blanket or insulate the box with blue board to keep it from freezing.

He is working with a variety of companies to bring it to the market.

Jim

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:28 pm 
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hi joomaw,

I have a video that outlines the math, it is a little over half a gig so I can't email it to you. However the DVD is available for sale from the guys website, pretty much the most respected name in hydrogen development, Roy Mcallister, he is the president of the American Hydrogen Association.

I'm not saying your not getting better mileage, but I doubt the small amount of hydrogen your getting from your electrolyzer is changing the combustion to one that is characterized by hydrogen, as one other member pointed out, it may have more to do with the water vapor that is being let into the air intake along with the hydrogen, or the classic psychology that one finds the results that one is expecting.

You can find the DVD at http://www.knowledgepublications.com/H2 ... l_page.htm

I've watched it through a number of times and am planning on adding hydrogen high boosting to my liberty CRD, but it will be with a high compression carbon fiber tank supplying the hydrogen, which I will fill up at our local welding shop, or maybe eventually with my own home based electrolyzer and compression equipment.

If you have any other questions, or about the video let me know, if you have a really specific question about the math I can watch the video and see if the answer is in there.

Peregrine

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:37 pm 
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B100 made from chicken parts totally makes me want to stop and buy KFC...

Seriously, though, I'm wondering if (aside from the lack to being able to electrolyze on the fly) it makes more sense to aspirate with hydrogen or LP/CNG gas. I've seen lots of kits for the latter and the big reason for me to not try one is the simple lack of a place for the tank other than in the passenger compartment.

Does anyone make residential-grade electrolysis / containment gear for H? My roof gets pretty hot in the summer and my rainwater barrels are just sitting there building up potential fuel...

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:06 pm 
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Well, I think from a potential MPG increase, (only counting the diesel or bio you burn) LP/CNG would be better as you would supplement a LOT more BTU with the Propane or Methane Gas than you would with just hydrogen. BUT with a low pressure system you are going to need a large tank, which is why I think you see more of those propane injection systems in pick up trucks where they can fit a tank in the back. My intention is to use a very high PSI carbon fiber tank that will be physically much smaller, like what firemen use for breathing aparatus, which I should be able to find space to mount. The upside is I can fit a lot of hydrogen (or a lot of propane or natural gas) into a physically smaller space; the downside is that I have to find a place that can fill a high psi tank with hydrogen or propane.

One of the reasons to do this is environmental, the hydrogen burns very clean and helps the diesel burn cleaner. So really hydrogen boosting is a bit different from propane injection in terms of the intention. With propane injection you are trying to replace a significant portion of your diesel fuel with propane. With hydrogen you are replacing a much smaller percentage of the total BTU being burned in order to change the combustion reaction in the cylinder.

I use SVO on my jeep, so I don't really want propane or CNG because they are way more expensive than free vegetable oil, but I do want the hydrogen boosting as it will help me have more complete combustion, will bump up my HP and MPG, will result in cleaner emissions, (and most importantly to me) will end up with less waste vegetable oil vapors making their way into my exhaust system and crank case oil.

So for a system like this you need to start with your tank. A fireman's breathing apparatus carbon fiber tank would be best, but also hundreds of dollars. Right now I'm looking at used Carbon Fiber paintball cylinders, which are about 3500 psi, and small, I would imagine I would have to fill one of those pretty often, maybe every day, I haven't done the math yet. Does anyone want to compute how many BTU worth of diesel the liberty engine uses through the RPM ranges per minute? Because whatever that number is I will have to be able to provide 5-7% of that number in BTU worth of hydrogen per minute.

Yes you can get residential grade electrolysis and and compression equipment, probably all for less than $10,000, but then you will have the cost of electricity too, how much do you pay per Kilowatt? Could you invest in solar? Here in Alaska our electricity is about .16 a kilowatt, which would make for some expensive hydrogen, if you live in a place with off peak pricing you could make your hydrogen in the middle of the night for cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:18 pm 
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Ok...you are right......I will just keep with my 4-5 miles per gallon on water vapor....and save $1400 per year on fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:23 pm 
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jmoomaw, yeah, it seems like per dollar's worth of investment you are doing pretty well. I considered a water/meth injection for the jeep, some friends of mine have them on their Dodge Diesel pickups and have gotten really good results and extra power. I decided against it on the jeep just because of how many stories I read about people having problems with their setups that caused big problems. I don't really know that much about the risks, most of what I know is theoretical, but I am sure there are quite a few people here on the forums who have experience with meth/water injection that could give you more useful feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:31 pm 
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H202 There is lots of info out there. Some say this is supposed to be an efficient way to convert ordinary tap water into gaseous hydrogen and oxygen, and then burn these vapors in the engine, instead of gasoline. Here is one link that has more than you want to know. fuel-efficient-vehicles.org a hydrogen generator you can build:http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?page_id=927
Many have experimented with Brown's Gas which you may find interesting.
Brown's Gas - The Reality:http://www.alternative-energy-resources.net/browns-gas-the-reality.html
If you have a CRD or a diesel powered vehicle, before the EPA completely screws the diesel engine up in the US, I would use biodiesel.

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:13 am 
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PLEASE NOTE
Hawkesbury Hydrogen has a hho system that really works
emails them by using
hawkesburyhydrogen@yahoo.com.au
email for all details

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 Post subject: Re: Run on suplemental Hydrogen from water
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:54 am 
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Follow the money, is the old saying.
Making hydrogen from water is such a dead issue that even Sky Mall the one source for crazy ideas that cost a lot of money, even if they don't work has dropped any adds from the Brown Gas People.

Even though I like to see alternative energy development take a wild guess what company that made 14 billion dollars last year and paid no Corporate Income Taxes got the Biggest Grant (not Tax Breaks Either) for alternative Energy Development:

GE!!

Regardless of your political views, I smell Political Corporate Corruption.

Perhaps there is a job for a future Mechanical Engineer in the Private Sector.

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