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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:44 am 
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If you just want a cheap new thermostat, there are some on eBay for $33-$35 dollar range with free shipping.... :wink:
Says they are new units, does not list manufacturer! :roll:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thermostat-New ... 3641.l6368
&
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thermostat-New ... 3641.l6368

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:47 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
If you just want a cheap new thermostat, there are some on eBay for $33-$35 dollar range with free shipping.... :wink:
Says they are new units, does not list manufacturer! :roll:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thermostat-New ... 3641.l6368
&
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thermostat-New ... 3641.l6368


That ain’t bad, by the time people ship their old units it probably wouldn’t be much cheaper.


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
If you're going that route, you might as well try one of these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Thermostat-Jeep-Liberty-2005-2006/371844734404?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49007%26meid%3D6ada14a0803d487a8714ead45a73cbd1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D361885407491&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:03 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:

I bought one of those just to cut it open and check it out. Never actually tested the function of the thermostat inside.
The housing itself is just like factory and the plastic fittings were in there tight. Much better than the old Crown housing that I once had.
The only issue was with the bolt holes. They were just slightly off.
Had to drill one of the holes a bit bigger to allow the housing to bolt to the head.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:44 am 
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Thanks guys! You are great as usual, someone must teach this idiot to remember to check the next page of the forum while waiting for the reply to his post in the very bottom of the previous page :) Just ordered this from eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Thermostat ... 2749.l2649

By the admission of the seller, this is not even a Crown thermostat (which I suspected it was), but their "copy of the Crown one". I am not going to try and interpret this statement. On a slightly positive note, the reply was written in correct English.

My plan is to boil test the thing without tearing it apart (which is going to be a bit of an adventure in itself) and then decide whether to install it as as or use it as a core for Kapalczynski mod. I even have yet another option in mind. Will report the results.

Thanks again!
Alex

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:05 pm 
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BoarX wrote:
Thanks guys! You are great as usual, someone must teach this idiot to remember to check the next page of the forum while waiting for the reply to his post in the very bottom of the previous page :) Just ordered this from eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Thermostat ... 2749.l2649

By the admission of the seller, this is not even a Crown thermostat (which I suspected it was), but their "copy of the Crown one". I am not going to try and interpret this statement. On a slightly positive note, the reply was written in correct English.

My plan is to boil test the thing without tearing it apart (which is going to be a bit of an adventure in itself) and then decide whether to install it as as or use it as a core for Kapalczynski mod. I even have yet another option in mind. Will report the results.

Thanks again!
Alex

Just don't consider an inline or inhose thermostat, they are have been proven to be bad news!!! :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:57 am 
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Ok, first results are in!

Thermostat arrived without the temperature sensor (expected) and no gasket (disappointing). Boil test results:

Chinese thermostat

Start opening: 87 deg.
Fully open: 93 deg.

Start closing: 89 deg.
Fully closed: 82 deg.

I used digital meat thermometer and while you may laugh, being persnickety that yours truly always was, he verified this particular thermometer performance with molten ice and boiling water. In both cases it was just 0.1 - 0.2 degree short of 0 and 100 deg, respectively. Thus barring some non-linearity between these set points, it appeared to be good enough for the job. And yes, all this is in centigrade as I personally abhor the Fahrenheit scale for the reasons I am not going to discuss here.

While I was judging the change in the thermostat valve position by visual cues and also by the speed of the water flowing through the valve, both being obviously quite inaccurate, here are my conclusions:

1. it clearly does not open at 80 deg C (176F) as OEM one - good thing
2. this thermostat is a proportional device as full opening occurs over like 6 deg C (12 deg F) range
3. the thermostat clearly displays some hysteresis (closes at lower temperature) - checked with slow heating and cooling; this could be both good and bad
4. it is never fully closed - neither the main valve at low temps, nor the closed loop valve at high temps; I have observed this kind of behavior on my late Mazda Protege unit and I must say it makes a lot of sense

I tried to unscrew the plastic nipples, but apparently this unit got some good thread locker applied, as I began to damage the plastic on the big nipple, while it still refused to budge.

Waiting for the gasket to arrive from IDParts, will install the thing once I receive the one.

Cheers,
A.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:48 am 
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Alright, here are the boiling test results from the removed OEM thermostat:

OEM thermostat

Start opening: 70 deg.
Fully open: 85 deg.

Start closing: 78 deg.
Fully closed: 64 deg.

While the listed temperature values are highly subjective and unreliable, there are two clear conclusions:

1. Neither top nor the bottom valves of the OEM thermostat ever close completely to fully cut the flow into the radiator and bypass line, respectively. Previously tested China-sourced thermostat behaved the same way.
2. While no exact numbers could be assigned to all the temperatures, OEM unit starts opening at noticeably lower thermometer reading, compared to Chinese one.

Once I get the Jeep back on the road (need to replace injector fuel return line, one of the plastic nipples is broken), I will measure the operating temperature of the Chinese thermostat with Torque app.

So far, so good,
A.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:14 pm 
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BoarX wrote:
Once I get the Jeep back on the road (need to replace injector fuel return line, one of the plastic nipples is broken)
So far, so good,
A.

Use the GM Duramax set. It's the same and WAY cheaper

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:28 am 
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OK, while my CRD was running for several days between fixed fuel return line and failed injector seal, I have observed the sustained coolant temperature reaching 84 deg. C (183F). The outside temperature was at the freezing point give or take couple of degrees. I had two sheets of cardboard inserted between the grill and the radiator. The temperature was read using Android Torque app through OBDII Bluetooth transmitter. Even if the coolant didn't go as high as I hoped - 84C (183F) instead of 87C (188F) - I still believe this thermostat is better than OEM, with longevity as a remaining concern. The temperature changed quite significantly depending on both the speed and engine load, which is not surprising given the fact that neither of thermostat valves ever close completely. Blowing mechanical fan and winter air definitely were the contributing factors. One good thing, the temperature remained stable under stable driving conditions. This was not the case a year ago with OEM thermostat with the same outside temperatures. Back then I have observed rather wild swings of the coolant temperature to the tune of the heater air switching from hot to lukewarm and the gauge needle oscillating between 1/4 and 1/2 scale labels every 3-4 minutes. However I haven't had cardboard radiator covers at that time. Once I fix the stupid injector seal, I will try to verify that last unknown. I am still planning to implement Mark's thermostat modification to reach 90C (192F) in the hopes of improving the fuel economy - cabin temperature improved quite a bit with the Chinese thermostat already.

Happy holidays!
A.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:41 am 
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Well, that's good news, I suppose.

Hang in there, and work quick. Maybe you can get done with Kap's mod before this one goes bad.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:30 am 
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If I lived in one the northern cold climate areas where it gets very cold and stays there for the whole winter; I would simply remove the mechanical fan in late fall and run all winter without it and then replace it it in late spring when the ambient temperature heats back up.
If you split the fan shroud in half like many of us on LOST have done, it makes for very easy removal of just the top half of the shroud to allow access to the mechanical fan. :wink:

Some cold climate drivers have reported removing their mechanical fan permanently with no adverse effects....

Either one of the above may be worth a consideration!!!
Of course, blocking the airflow through the radiator/grill is a big help!

:SOMBRERO:

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Quote:
Some cold climate drivers have reported removing their mechanical fan permanently with no adverse effects....

Even some of us warm climate drivers have permanently removed the mechanical fan without issues.
Although, if you frequently drive through steep mountains or tow heavy loads you may want to keep it.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:22 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
If I lived in one the northern cold climate areas where it gets very cold and stays there for the whole winter; I would simply remove the mechanical fan in late fall and run all winter without it and then replace it it in late spring when the ambient temperature heats back up.
If you split the fan shroud in half like many of us on LOST have done, it makes for very easy removal of just the top half of the shroud to allow access to the mechanical fan. :wink:

Some cold climate drivers have reported removing their mechanical fan permanently with no adverse effects....

Either one of the above may be worth a consideration!!!
Of course, blocking the airflow through the radiator/grill is a big help!

:SOMBRERO:


Interesting! I saw recommendations to get rid of the very bottom portion of the fan shroud, which is attached to the main shroud body with some sort of plastic rivets, but I presume you are talking about somewhat more radical surgery :) Do you simply throw away the bottom portion of the shroud after cutting it off?

And yes, in my previous life I have removed the accessory belt driven fan (no clutch there) for the whole five month long winter, never a problem.

Cheers,
A.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:55 am 
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OK, having fixed the injector leak, I immediately took my resurrected CRD for a 2 x 400 mile round trip to chilly northern Wisconsin. So chilly in fact that on my way back yesterday the morning outside temperature dropped to -29C (-20F)! On my way home I checked the air temperatures regularly accessing weather stations along the road and they never went higher than -19C(-2F). In that kind of cold despite having 3 pieces of cardboard blocking my radiator, but with accessory-driven fan still in, my coolant temperature never reached higher than meager 65C(149F). Rather disappointing performance, had to drive fully clothed, some food on the back seat got frozen. As I mentioned previously I boil-checked my currently installed Chinese thermostat by slowly heating it up and I swear that the valve stem clearly didn't begin to move until 87C (189F). Thus it looks to me that the culprit for the usual complaint about poor cabin heat with the OEM thermostat installed is not only due to its low opening temperature, but also due to the fact that OEM unit never fully blocks the coolant flow through the radiator. My current China-sourced one is copied after Crown which in turn must have been copied after OEM. As I discovered neither unit was capable of blocking the coolant flow completely. Such incomplete closure is there in at least some thermostats by design. My old Mazda Protege thermostat had a hole drilled in the valve, which I discovered while changing it. Such hole is said to be there to bleed possible air bubbles and cannot let through more than a trickle of coolant. However the incomplete closure of both CRD thermostats I tested resulted in some very substantial water conduction, not a small trickle by any measure. Whether it was due to the bleeding holes in the thermostats or due to the way they were (poorly) mounted, I don't know, since I boil-tested them assembled.

Now I am wondering if the thermostat used in Mark Kapalczynski design did close fully? Anyone tested his unit in any kind of frigid cold? Given my yesterday experience I suspect the full valve closure might be critical, even more so than the temperature rating. After all, the function of a thermostat is to prevent an engine overcooling by "short-circuiting" the all too powerful cooling system. My current thermostat clearly fails to do that.

There is of course a chance that my new thermostat is already stuck open, but I will need to wait till summer or to drive to Florida to check that. I am seriously planning the latter option in February :BANANA: .

Happy New Year all!
A.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:20 am 
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Here is a little demonstration corroborating my previous post. I take my cold OEM thermostat, plug all three nipples with my fingers and pour cold tap water through the flange used to attach the thermostat to the block. Thermostat-to-radiator valve must be closed and ideally not letting any water through and into the upper radiator hose, right? Well, watch what happens in reality:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i98ZMD ... sp=sharing

This is hardly a trickle! Mind you, this is properly working unit, it is not stuck open, I boil-tested it (see my previous posts) and observed the stem moving at approximately specified temperature and by enough distance to (at least partially) close the bypass valve. This motion could be observed through the openings in the unit. Of course when in the open state the flow to the upper hose increases quite noticeably compared to the above demonstration. Question is, why it remains so significant in the closed state? Incredibly, China-sourced thermostat which I currently have installed behaved in exactly the same way! Driving in bitter cold conditions recently and despite such radical measures as removing the mechanical fan and covering the radiator, my coolant temperatures hardly ever reached the opening value of the thermostat - I know it, because I measured that value. In fact of all vehicles I ever drove in cold, this one shows the strongest coolant temperature dependence on the engine load, outside temperature, speed and even wind direction. But if the thermostat never closes fully, all this becomes understandable. I am starting to suspect that all the successful thermostat mods/solutions, such as ones by Kapalczinsky and TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK, had an unintended, but very useful consequence of reducing or completely eliminating the flow through the radiator with the thermostat in the closed state.

Next order of business: crack the OEM thermostat open and try to determine, if the observed condition is a flaw or a feature.

Cheers,
Alex

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:38 am 
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This is what you will find when you cut open the thermostat housing (not my picture)

Image

You can see where the thermostat disc fits against the upper housing outlet. Its not a perfect fit and there is no rubber seal or anything to prevent a small amount of water from going around the disc.
The thermostat spring presses the disc up against the upper housing outlet. A weakened spring or casting imperfections (or poor engineering) will keep the disc from being fully seated when cold.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:45 pm 
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If anyone's looking for a dead OEM thermostat to tear apart, I have one that's going to be junked by the morning of the 11th (roughly 36 hours from now) if nobody claims it. Details are here; please check that thread and shoot me a PM if you're interested.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:58 am 
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Thanks for the information flash7210, but being an inquisitive dude, tonight I have cracked open my OEM thermostat too. It took me only like 20 minutes, big vice, hacksaw and a sharp flat screwdriver (details later if what I am planning on works out). Now, I think I figured out why the formally closed OEM thermostat lets so much water through and into the radiator. In my case the thermostat valve does not seat fully! Again, this is too long to explain here, unless there is a popular demand, but in essence even the poor metal to metal seal is not achieved because the valve fails to reach its seat. This does not seem to be due to the weakened spring; the valve cannot be made to fully seat even with quite a bit of additional force. Modern wax-filled thermostats rely on the spring to press the working plunger in when the temperature starts to drop, but there is a hard limit after which no reasonable force will push the plunger any deeper. In my case the thermostat appeared to be mounted such that at this hard compression limit the valve did not close fully. Either this plunger compression limit changes with age (seems rather unlikely), or we are dealing with poor manufacturing tolerance for the depth of the hole in the upper housing part, which holds the plunger of the thermostat. Maybe there used to be a rubber seal, that filled the existing gap and it got completely disintegrated and washed away?

As a side note: the jiggle valve of my thermostat was found stuck - not a good thing. This tiny valve is used during the coolant fill up to bleed the air out of the thermostat by letting it through, while blocking the coolant. However that valve could be unstuck with a long enough screwdriver through the upper hose opening. In any case, with current open gap in the main valve, jiggle valve function must be largely irrelevant.

Saga to continue.
A.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:07 am 
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OK, slowly, but surely I am progressing with my quest to sort out thermostat issues on my CRD. Having original and functional OEM thermostat cracked open I have repeated my kitchen sink test to find that the main thermostat valve failed to fully close, letting through quite a flow of coolant through the radiator on the cold engine. Here is the proof:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AKkYjE ... sp=sharing

Simple modification by deepening the hole in the housing which accepts thermostat plunger/piston results in this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GZM-gm ... sp=sharing

Quite a difference, n'est-ce pas? Closer look at the issue reveals the following: while most cars these days are using what are termed "thermostat inserts", some, mostly Audis, some Cadillacs and Saturns - and of course KJ CRD - use what are called "housing" thermostats. The former type are complete devices which simply need to be installed into the housing and sealed around the perimeter. Both the main valve and its seat are within the device and the valve closure is established during the assembly at the factory. All I have seen so far fully close the valve when cold. Here is an example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EQRH5G/re ... B000C9C00W

The latter (our) type relies on the housing to provide the stop for the piston, the seat for the valve and the attachment for the lower bracket holding the valve spring. Here is the typical one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FDWCWU/re ... B000C9F5TU

Main advantage of the "housing thermostat" is substantially bigger valve diameter which could be as big as the housing permits. Thermostat "insert" fitted in that same diameter housing is going to have a valve roughly twice smaller in diameter - big difference in the coolant flow given the fact, that the amplitude of the piston motion is roughly the same. But that's where the advantages end. With "housing" type the housing becomes an integral part of the design and needs to be machined more precisely. In my case it was machined such that the valve failed to close. Just a little deepening of the piston guide hole in the housing resulted in almost complete seal despite being simply metal-to-metal.

The real question is, whether this is a feature or a flaw? As a feature it could be there to provide at least some minimal cooling in case the thermostat fails in the closed state. I recall reading about something similar on some Fords. As a flaw, well, the flaw is a flaw. Interestingly the mods by Kapalczinsky and TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK both used "insert" (and fully closing!) type thermostats to no ill effect, but did anyone do heavy towing with those? Also interestingly, the Chinese-sourced thermostat I currently have installed behaves in exactly the same way as OEM one - never closes fully. Was that a feature incorporated in the design given the difficulty of procuring and swapping the permanently sealed expensive unit? Somehow I am skeptical on that one ... :roll:

Well, now that my OEM unit is "fixed", all is left is to figure out how to reassemble the darn thing without the roll crimping. Wish me luck! :D

Cheers,
Alex

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited, GDE ECO tune, Provent 200, 2-stage Weeks kit, ARP studs,
Aussie fan shroud, Trans drain plug


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