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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:24 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 am 
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BoarX wrote:
OK, slowly, but surely I am progressing with my quest to sort out thermostat issues on my CRD. Having original and functional OEM thermostat cracked open I have repeated my kitchen sink test to find that the main thermostat valve failed to fully close, letting through quite a flow of coolant through the radiator on the cold engine. Here is the proof:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AKkYjE ... sp=sharing

Simple modification by deepening the hole in the housing which accepts thermostat plunger/piston results in this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GZM-gm ... sp=sharing

Quite a difference, n'est-ce pas? Closer look at the issue reveals the following: while most cars these days are using what are termed "thermostat inserts", some, mostly Audis, some Cadillacs and Saturns - and of course KJ CRD - use what are called "housing" thermostats. The former type are complete devices which simply need to be installed into the housing and sealed around the perimeter. Both the main valve and its seat are within the device and the valve closure is established during the assembly at the factory. All I have seen so far fully close the valve when cold. Here is an example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EQRH5G/re ... B000C9C00W

The latter (our) type relies on the housing to provide the stop for the piston, the seat for the valve and the attachment for the lower bracket holding the valve spring. Here is the typical one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FDWCWU/re ... B000C9F5TU

Main advantage of the "housing thermostat" is substantially bigger valve diameter which could be as big as the housing permits. Thermostat "insert" fitted in that same diameter housing is going to have a valve roughly twice smaller in diameter - big difference in the coolant flow given the fact, that the amplitude of the piston motion is roughly the same. But that's where the advantages end. With "housing" type the housing becomes an integral part of the design and needs to be machined more precisely. In my case it was machined such that the valve failed to close. Just a little deepening of the piston guide hole in the housing resulted in almost complete seal despite being simply metal-to-metal.

The real question is, whether this is a feature or a flaw? As a feature it could be there to provide at least some minimal cooling in case the thermostat fails in the closed state. I recall reading about something similar on some Fords. As a flaw, well, the flaw is a flaw. Interestingly the mods by Kapalczinsky and TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK both used "insert" (and fully closing!) type thermostats to no ill effect, but did anyone do heavy towing with those? Also interestingly, the Chinese-sourced thermostat I currently have installed behaves in exactly the same way as OEM one - never closes fully. Was that a feature incorporated in the design given the difficulty of procuring and swapping the permanently sealed expensive unit? Somehow I am skeptical on that one ... :roll:

Well, now that my OEM unit is "fixed", all is left is to figure out how to reassemble the darn thing without the roll crimping. Wish me luck! :D

Cheers,
Alex

I can’t tell what you did to make the thermostat thingy fit better but it seems to work.
I sealed up my housing using JBweld.

Nothing wrong with using “insert” type thermostats. They’ve been used on darn near every engine for over 60 years. Big v8 engines like the 5.7 Hemi have few problems keeping cool while towing. Provided that you drive it like a responsible adult.

No matter what thermostat you use, it should be fully opened at its prescribed temperature.
The factory CRD thermostat opens at about 176F. At 200F, it’s not opened any more than at 176F.
The only variable is the size of the opening through the thermostat.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:40 pm 
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BoarX wrote:
OK, slowly, but surely I am progressing with my quest to sort out thermostat issues on my CRD. Having original and functional OEM thermostat cracked open I have repeated my kitchen sink test to find that the main thermostat valve failed to fully close, letting through quite a flow of coolant through the radiator on the cold engine. Here is the proof:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AKkYjE ... sp=sharing

Simple modification by deepening the hole in the housing which accepts thermostat plunger/piston results in this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GZM-gm ... sp=sharing

Quite a difference, n'est-ce pas? Closer look at the issue reveals the following: while most cars these days are using what are termed "thermostat inserts", some, mostly Audis, some Cadillacs and Saturns - and of course KJ CRD - use what are called "housing" thermostats. The former type are complete devices which simply need to be installed into the housing and sealed around the perimeter. Both the main valve and its seat are within the device and the valve closure is established during the assembly at the factory. All I have seen so far fully close the valve when cold. Here is an example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EQRH5G/re ... B000C9C00W

The latter (our) type relies on the housing to provide the stop for the piston, the seat for the valve and the attachment for the lower bracket holding the valve spring. Here is the typical one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FDWCWU/re ... B000C9F5TU

Main advantage of the "housing thermostat" is substantially bigger valve diameter which could be as big as the housing permits. Thermostat "insert" fitted in that same diameter housing is going to have a valve roughly twice smaller in diameter - big difference in the coolant flow given the fact, that the amplitude of the piston motion is roughly the same. But that's where the advantages end. With "housing" type the housing becomes an integral part of the design and needs to be machined more precisely. In my case it was machined such that the valve failed to close. Just a little deepening of the piston guide hole in the housing resulted in almost complete seal despite being simply metal-to-metal.

The real question is, whether this is a feature or a flaw? As a feature it could be there to provide at least some minimal cooling in case the thermostat fails in the closed state. I recall reading about something similar on some Fords. As a flaw, well, the flaw is a flaw. Interestingly the mods by Kapalczinsky and TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK both used "insert" (and fully closing!) type thermostats to no ill effect, but did anyone do heavy towing with those? Also interestingly, the Chinese-sourced thermostat I currently have installed behaves in exactly the same way as OEM one - never closes fully. Was that a feature incorporated in the design given the difficulty of procuring and swapping the permanently sealed expensive unit? Somehow I am skeptical on that one ... :roll:

Well, now that my OEM unit is "fixed", all is left is to figure out how to reassemble the darn thing without the roll crimping. Wish me luck! :D

Cheers,
Alex



Lots to discuss here....

Your efforts to conduct experiments using boil testing without proper measuring equipment and a means to pressurize the liquid you are boiling is fraught with inaccuracies. Simple boil testing can only give you a very rough idea about what is happening and only approximately at what temperature it is happening at. Often thermostat valves do not fully stroke open until the temperature of the water they sit in is well above the boiling point. If you can not pressurize the water, you can not get the temperature up above 100 degrees Celsius. The Stant 48792 thermostat valve, (95 degree Celsius O.E. replacement Hemi engine valve), will not fully open until the coolant temperature is about 104.5 degrees Celsius. You also have to factor in your elevation from sea level, which will have a substantial effect on the boiling point of water. For example, I pulled the following from a GOOGLE search...

"For example, at sea level the atmospheric pressure is 760 mm Hg (also expressed as 760 torr, 101325 Pa, 101.3 kPa, 1013.25 mbar or 14.696 psi) and pure water boils at 100°C. However, in Calgary (approx. 1050m above sea level) the atmospheric pressure is approximately 670 mm Hg, and water boils at about 96.6°C."

How are you measuring movement of the valves? If simply by visual observation, it is difficult to see anything while observing in boiling water.

You claim that a thermostat valve designed for use in a stand-alone housing has the advantage of a much larger valve than a bare thermostat valve, (a ""insert" fitted in that same diameter housing"), and is therefore desirable because it allows for more coolant flow. You then write that the amplitude of the valves is the same. This is not an accurate statement and therefore untrue in many circumstances. A larger diameter valve does not always equate to more coolant flow; you have to account for the differences of total available stroke, (the "amplitude", as you call it), of the valve; they are most certainly not necessarily the same. There are also many variables in manufacturing thermostat valves and thermostat assemblies that you are not taking into account. Bare or stand-alone thermostat valves can have wide or narrow band flanges; two valves that have the same total diameter flanges can have different size valves inside those flanges, and therefore different total flow specifications.

The detailed specifications - including maximum stroke - for most thermostat valves can be obtained with some research and telephone calling to companies like Stant Corporation in Connersville, Indiana. This information is way more complete and accurate than can be obtained by boil testing at home. Boil testing is inaccurate, and only relevant for ballpark estimates of what is going on with the very valve you are experimenting with. Conclusions obtained by boil testing should not be considered for anything else.

A more accurate approach as to comparisons of thermostat valve coolant flows would be to consider the application of the valve... what engine is the valve designed for?

1) How large is the displacement of the engine?

2) The number of cylinders?

3) The size and weight of the engine block?

4) The state of tune of the engine? Compression ratio, cam timing, and whether or not the engine is boosted are all factors.

5) The type of fuel the engine uses?

All of the above would be factors that would have to be considered when the engineers design a cooling system; making sure that cooling system has the capacity and capability of cooling the engine in the most demanding situations. Designing the thermostat to provide enough coolant flow in the most demanding situations - whether it is a bare valve or a thermostat assembly - is one of those decisions that has to be made.

I can not speak directly to Mark Kapalczynski's Modified thermostat assembly in this regard, other than to say that re-using the O.E. thermostat housing has rather drastic limitations. It works, as can be witnessed to by people like papaindigo. I will state again for the record that it is the best modified O.E. design available, if you can still find the parts to put one together.

HOWEVER...

Does it work as well as the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001? No; simply because of those limitations imposed by the re-using that O.E. housing. Kap's modified thermostat uses a valve meant for a 1995-99 Hyundai Accent 1.5L DOHC or SOHC. A 1.5L gasoline fueled, non-boosted four cylinder engine has a cooling system that is nowhere as robust as a 2.8L turbocharged four cylinder diesel engine weighing in at least twice as much and having the capability of towing a 5000 lb trailer, so I do not believe that Kap's Modified thermostat will have the coolant flow for heavy-duty use.

The Model 001, on the other hand, uses a thermostat valve that fits the entire line of Hemi V-8 engines, from the 5.7L naturally aspirated 375 horsepower engine to the 6.2L supercharged 707 horsepower Hellcat engine, (unsure if it applies also the 840 horsepower Demon engine). The Hemi engines weigh about the same as the R428 engine in the CRD, and produce WAAAY more power and torque. With all of this extra power comes extra heat production, and therefore the cooling systems of these engines are very robust and substantially larger with more cooling capacity than even a modified Liberty CRD engine cooling system - especially in pickup trucks with towing packages.

When designing the Model 001, getting the CRD engine up to a proper operating temperature was never our biggest concern. Our biggest worry was to make absolutely sure that the Model 001 would not contribute in any way to overheat situations. Designing and manufacturing a larger housing, and using the Hemi engine thermostat valves was the proper way to address such issues.

BoarX, you asked if anyone has towed anything heavy using the Model 001. Private message Mountainman. He has towed overcapacity trailers up mountain passes in his CRD with a Model 001 installed and he has had no overheat issues whatsoever. Private message bshooter as well; he has a highly modified CRD with a Model 001 installed that he goes mudbogging and rock climbing with. Again, no overheat issues with the Model 001.


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:15 pm 
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BoarX wrote:
Also interestingly, the Chinese-sourced thermostat I currently have installed behaves in exactly the same way as OEM one - never closes fully. Was that a feature incorporated in the design given the difficulty of procuring and swapping the permanently sealed expensive unit?


Should close. Maybe the Chinese ones are made sloppy so that the bypass doesn't close too soon.

The Hyundai stat when hot seems to have a curtain area (to the rad) about the same size as stock.

Cold, it should have about a .16 inch gap between the stat and bypass port.
When the stat heats up to a temp that permits coolant to start to flow to the rad, the gap between the stat and bypass port should be about .07 inch.

.07 inch gap curtain area is about equal to the area of the bypass port (it's fitting may even be smaller, don't remember)

So at full temp the bypass is closed.


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:07 pm 
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I've skimmed these 40 pages. May have missed the answer to my question. Simple question though. Has anyone actually changed their thermostat enough times to make it worth using one featuring a housing that opens? 150k on mine and I'm replacing mine as a precaution while I replace the timing belt and other stuff. Can't imagine my KJ will last long enough to replace two or three more thermostats. (All respect tp T-D-F and his well-made product. No need to convince me of that. I'm looking for other info) Just wondering if anyone has actually needed to replace the thermostat more than once or twice.


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:17 am 
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MyLittleMule wrote:
I've skimmed these 40 pages. May have missed the answer to my question. Simple question though. Has anyone actually changed their thermostat enough times to make it worth using one featuring a housing that opens? 150k on mine and I'm replacing mine as a precaution while I replace the timing belt and other stuff. Can't imagine my KJ will last long enough to replace two or three more thermostats. (All respect tp T-D-F and his well-made product. No need to convince me of that. I'm looking for other info) Just wondering if anyone has actually needed to replace the thermostat more than once or twice.



The average O.E. thermostat lasts about 50,000 miles. A well maintained Liberty CRD engine with proper upgrades should go at least 300,000 miles.

That is the simple math... about 6 O.E. thermostat assemblies to 1 Model 001 or 1 Kapalczynski thermostat; not factoring labor costs. Factor in labor costs, and a serviceable thermostat assembly becomes even more attractive because you only have to install it once. Thermostat valve change outs in a serviceable thermostat are also labor, but they are typically very easy to do. I would estimate that you would need to do 5 thermostat valve changes in a serviceable thermostat assembly to equal the labour in 1 O.E. assembly replacement.

However, a couple of factors come into play that muddies this simple math...

1) If you do not properly maintain your CRD and spend the money necessary to properly upgrade it; then it simply will not last as long. Then your concerns about spending money on an unreliable vehicle becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

2) Some people keep malfunctioning O.E. thermostats in their engines for many thousands of miles after the time they needed to be replaced. This can be because they simply do not know that it is malfunctioning, and that can partly be blamed on the inaccurate and non-linear engine temperature gauge. It can also be that they found out about the high cost of replacing a thermostat assembly, and either they can't afford to replace it or they refuse to do so. A thermostat valve starts to malfunction when the engine operating temperature goes below the temperature rating of the thermostat valve. To monitor this properly n the Liberty CRD this means installing a high quality and accurate engine temperature gauge, or plugging in an OBDII reader from time to time to check engine operating temperatures. I think people would be surprised at how soon thermostat valves can start to fail.

You are also disregarding one of the main reasons why the Kapalczynski modified thermostat and the Model 001 exist in the first place, and that is the fact that the O.E. thermostat assembly valve is set to open at way too low a temperature for proper long term operation of the CRD engine. This was done to meet the EPA's ideologically driven NOx standards, and the resulting low engine operating temperatures are bad for diesel engines. It also is bad for fuel economy. There definitely was a valid reason why VW cheated, MyLittleMule.

CRD owners who have a serviceable thermostat assembly that uses hotter thermostat valves- especially in colder climates - experience better engine running characteristics with better fuel economy. This is to be expected from an engine running at 195 degrees Fahrenheit and even hotter, rather than the O.E. spec 176 degrees.


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:06 pm 
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Hi all,

Sorry for bumping such an old thread, but I like to come to some sort of closure whenever I can. Briefly, from the first days of my 06 CRD ownership I have observed that depending on conditions (outside temps, load, even wind!) the coolant temperature was fluctuating significantly more than in all vehicles I previously owned and/or dealt with. While in the process of overhauling the engine after my head gasket blew up, I have removed my thermostat and subjected it to a simple boil test. I have clearly observed the piston moving, so the stat was not completely shot. While such test was obviously not extremely accurate, it nevertheless clearly demonstrated two things:

a) the main thermostat valve failed to fully close (as it should have) the flow through the radiator when cold, the flow was very significant, not a mere drip
b) the secondary thermostat valve failed to fully close (as it should have) the flow through the radiator bypass route even after a prolonged immersion in boiling water. Here in Indiana we are not much above the sea level, so the temperature was pretty darn close to 100C (212F).

I am not sure if this thermostat was OEM or aftermarket, but clearly it did not operate properly. Specifically, not closing the flow of cold coolant through the radiator was consistent with coolant temperature swings that were observed. Hoping to get a better unit, I purchased from eBay an aftermarket $30 CRD thermostat proudly made in China, which its seller claimed to be an exact copy of this Crown thermostat:

https://www.crownautomotive.net/Thermos ... 601AA.html

To my surprise, the eBay-sourced unit had both exact same a) and b) flaws. Baffled, I have installed it (it is still there) and carefully cracked open my original unit. Turns out, at least the flaw a) was very easy to fix with just a hand drill, but I got stuck trying to figure out how to reseal the thermostat body back. Come summer, the problem seized to be critical, China-made thermostat worked more or less ok, even when towing what I suspect was 7,000lb boat. Now the winter is back and it suddenly dawned on me, that the flaws of my eBay thermostat, make it a good candidate for installation of an additional inline unit!

Now, to stave away the chorus of warnings: yes, I am fully aware of the shortcomings of the inline thermostats, but it is my working theory that the shortcomings of my main unit in fact reduce the likelihood of any dire consequences of installing the inline one. Got myself Stant 13519 from RockAuto for $7 (yes, I am that cheap), it slipped into the top radiator hose right away, I suspect it was not even necessary to drain the coolant. I was not sure if it was necessary to drill a small hole in the Stant valve to help remove air bubbles, but I decided to try it the way it was and it worked right away. Result? The engine warms up way faster than before, the temperature is rock steady at 88C (190F, measured by Torque app) despite recent outside temperatures of -18C (~0F). If something goes wrong, this Stant unit could be extracted from the radiator hose in a matter of minutes without much coolant loss. Time will tell what happens.

An important disclaimer: this is not meant to be a recommendation, this is rather an ongoing experiment. Strange way my two main thermostats are behaving may still be a mere coincidence and other thermostats are in no way guaranteed to function in a similar fashion, making operation with inline unit dangerous. There are proven solutions by TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK and Kapalczynski, mine is just an attempt to exploit the existing flaws to enable a lazy man fix.

Thus, as far as I am concerned, the case is closed. If my engine blows up yet again, I am not resurrecting it (but will report here :D ).

Cheers,
Alex

P.S. Horror stories about inline thermostats leading to disastrous consequences are welcome :)

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:30 pm 
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To each his own, but why would anyone want to take the chance of an inline thermostat causing a blown head gasket or worse yet, a cracked head? :grim:
Simply not worth the risks when other proven non-catastrophic options are readily available...

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:53 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
To each his own, but why would anyone want to take the chance of an inline thermostat causing a blown head gasket or worse yet, a cracked head? :grim:
Simply not worth the risks when other proven non-catastrophic options are readily available...



Agreed.

But then again, BoarX has stated quite clearly that he is cheap. The problem with being cheap is that it can often end up being very expensive for you. In many cases, the best way to be cheap is to purchase quality upgrade parts and perform the best upgrades the first time, instead of performing questionable experiments and "hoping" everything will turn out O.K.

I also understand clearly that he is experimenting through his latest post. The problem with his experiment is that he is trying to "thread a camel through the eye of a needle"; essentially, to have all of the advantages of a Model 001 or a Kapalczynski modified unit through the use of cheap parts, one of which is not designed for the R428.

You still have the problems of the in-hose thermostat valve, despite the leaky bypass of this Chinese made O.E. thermostat....

1) ... it is still too far from the engine, so the coolant that reaches if is not quite the same temperature as that of the coolant in the engine.

2) ... the valve is designed for a smaller displacement engine making less power than that of the CRD engine, and therefore will not flow a proper amount of coolant in higher demand situations.

3) ... you still have the problem of the O.E. thermostat eventually failing, with the valve controlling flow to the radiator circuit failing open, (or, almost open in this situation), and the bypass valve failing closed, (or, almost closed in this situation). There is no way to know when the failure will occur, or when it does fail there is no way to properly measure if the coolant leaking through that almost closed bypass is enough to provide adequate circulation in the engine.

You also have the problem of the build quality of the Chinese made O.E. replacement assembly. I have heard of catastrophic failures with these parts, where the seam crimping the cap to the main housing fails and the assembly leaks, thereby causing an overheat situation. BoarX himself has made reference to the quality issues of the Chinese made parts.

BoarX is relying on visual observations of a simple boil test... he has no way of adequately quantifying the amount of coolant that would leak past either the main valve controlling flow through to the radiator, or flow of coolant leaking through the bypass valve.

Essentially, he is relying on the cheapness of the Chinese made part to do a possible, (NOT a sure thing at all), end-run around the problems of using the in-hose thermostat band-aid solution. Why risk all of the potential problems that would entail for positive results that are not assured?

Regards,

Jeff Bauer


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:35 pm 
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My Jeep was so cold blooded I needed extra clothes to drive in cold weather. After a HDS install the Jeep is at the proper heat all the time, I've never seen the temp go anywhere above slightly below the half way point on the gauge winter or summer. Cabin heat is immediately available just after idle warm up. Expensive yes, worth it, for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:43 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
To each his own, but why would anyone want to take the chance of an inline thermostat causing a blown head gasket or worse yet, a cracked head? :grim:
Simply not worth the risks when other proven non-catastrophic options are readily available...


WW, here is why: given the condition of this piece of $%^t that I have in my possession, I simply cannot justify coughing up half a grand on something like a thermostat. My estimate of this particular vehicle lifespan (not CRDs in general, but my particular one) is around couple of years. As soon as something major happens again, it goes straight to the junkyard. I would have painstakingly maintain and fix it if it were my only hobby and passion. However, my passion is sailing and I need something to tow sailboat trailers. This looked like most affordable and viable option, however up to now it has been nothing, but a constant money and time drain. I need it to do a job, not to prove myself capable of fixing breakdowns of ever-increasing complexity, thank you very much. I know I can, but at some point it ceases being rewarding and becomes a chore.

Of course it was a big mistake on my part to begin with. I am hereby joyfully declaring myself a village idiot. In fact I have already earned that distinction in my neighborhood from people observing how much time my CRD spends on jack stands in my garage, so I am not a newbie :lol:

And TDF, I think you fail to see your opportunity here. My experience indicates that anyone still sitting on a fence about purchasing your solution (which is THE solution, no joke, save for $$$), can now spend ~10 bucks and half an hour to install the inline thermostat, feel the difference for themselves, take the cheap unit out to stay out of trouble, discard it and place an order with you with much improved confidence :)

Peace,
Alex

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:56 pm 
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BoarX wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
To each his own, but why would anyone want to take the chance of an inline thermostat causing a blown head gasket or worse yet, a cracked head? :grim:
Simply not worth the risks when other proven non-catastrophic options are readily available...


WW, here is why: given the condition of this piece of $%^t that I have in my possession, I simply cannot justify coughing up half a grand on something like a thermostat. My estimate of this particular vehicle lifespan (not CRDs in general, but my particular one) is around couple of years. As soon as something major happens again, it goes straight to the junkyard. I would have painstakingly maintain and fix it if it were my only hobby and passion. However, my passion is sailing and I need something to tow sailboat trailers. This looked like most affordable and viable option, however up to now it has been nothing, but a constant money and time drain. I need it to do a job, not to prove myself capable of fixing breakdowns of ever-increasing complexity, thank you very much. I know I can, but at some point it ceases being rewarding and becomes a chore.

Of course it was a big mistake on my part to begin with. I am hereby joyfully declaring myself a village idiot. In fact I have already earned that distinction in my neighborhood from people observing how much time my CRD spends on jack stands in my garage, so I am not a newbie :lol:

And TDF, I think you fail to see your opportunity here. My experience indicates that anyone still sitting on a fence about purchasing your solution (which is THE solution, no joke, save for $$$), can now spend ~10 bucks and half an hour to install the inline thermostat, feel the difference for themselves, take the cheap unit out to stay out of trouble, discard it and place an order with you with much improved confidence :)

Peace,
Alex



I suppose we will agree to disagree, then.

The solution you are advocating makes a bad situation even worse... even as a short term stop-gap measure.

Cheap upgrades to the Liberty CRD have often caused a lot of unintended consequences later in the life of the vehicle...

1) The elephant hose modification, rather than a Provent 200.

2) Installing an inline fuel pump, rather than doing it right with an in-tank lift pump.

3) Installing an inline thermostat, rather than something that is properly engineered and matches the operation of the O.E. part it replaces; as I have explained ad nauseum on many occasions.

All of these modification have either sometimes caused problems, or will eventually cause problems virtually 100% of the time. It is not worth the time of someone to perform a so-so upgrade and HOPE that it will hold together... doing so has contributed to the bad reputation that the Liberty CRD has.

Regards,


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:08 pm 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
I suppose we will agree to disagree, then.
The solution you are advocating makes a bad situation even worse... even as a short term stop-gap measure.
Cheap upgrades to the Liberty CRD have often caused a lot of unintended consequences later in the life of the vehicle...
1) The elephant hose modification, rather than a Provent 200.
2) Front Wheel Bearing - Right (Liberty CRD)
GSP North America installing an inline fuel pump, rather than doing it right with an in-tank lift pump.
3) Installing an inline thermostat, rather than something that is properly engineered and matches the operation of the O.E. part it replaces; as I have explained ad nauseum on many occasions.
All of these modification have either sometimes caused problems, or will eventually cause problems virtually 100% of the time. It is not worth the time of someone to perform a so-so upgrade and HOPE that it will hold together... doing so has contributed to the bad reputation that the Liberty CRD has.
Regards,

X2

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:32 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
I suppose we will agree to disagree, then.

You are most welcome :)
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
The solution you are advocating makes ....

I don't advocate anything, at least not here. To the contrary, if you were to read my post carefully, you would see that I explicitly stated that what I described was not a recommendation, but merely a description of ongoing experiment performed at my own, fully appreciated risk. I explicitly warned about the danger for someone to follow suit. But who reads warnings, right? :) I probably should have put it in boldface :)

Time will tell, but even if nothing bad happens due to my weird thermostat setup, I still won't recommend it to anyone. All I am saying, my cheapo setup, while it functions in the intended way, is a good proxy for how the vehicle with a proper thermostat would behave.

As for the bad rep. of Liberty CRD: point me to another 21st century vehicle that is just as certain to blow its head gasket after 100K miles. Whose cheap solution is to blame here? This fact alone outweighs all the other contributions to CRD bad rep.

To sum up, to me it doesn't make sense to patch a hole in a dilapidated shack with a gold plate, even if it appears to be an ultimate solution.

Hey, TDF, here is the deal: if my CRD lasts another 3 years/100K miles with spare parts bill totaling less than $1000, proving itself to be not as bad of vehicle as it appears to be now, I may be willing to buy your thermostat - depending on a discount you offer at that time :wink:
A.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:01 am 
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BoarX wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
I suppose we will agree to disagree, then.

You are most welcome :)
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
The solution you are advocating makes ....

I don't advocate anything, at least not here. To the contrary, if you were to read my post carefully, you would see that I explicitly stated that what I described was not a recommendation, but merely a description of ongoing experiment performed at my own, fully appreciated risk. I explicitly warned about the danger for someone to follow suit. But who reads warnings, right? :) I probably should have put it in boldface :)

Time will tell, but even if nothing bad happens due to my weird thermostat setup, I still won't recommend it to anyone. All I am saying, my cheapo setup, while it functions in the intended way, is a good proxy for how the vehicle with a proper thermostat would behave.

As for the bad rep. of Liberty CRD: point me to another 21st century vehicle that is just as certain to blow its head gasket after 100K miles. Whose cheap solution is to blame here? This fact alone outweighs all the other contributions to CRD bad rep.

To sum up, to me it doesn't make sense to patch a hole in a dilapidated shack with a gold plate, even if it appears to be an ultimate solution.

Hey, TDF, here is the deal: if my CRD lasts another 3 years/100K miles with spare parts bill totaling less than $1000, proving itself to be not as bad of vehicle as it appears to be now, I may be willing to buy your thermostat - depending on a discount you offer at that time :wink:
A.



It may be an experiment for you, but the mere fact that you are posting your intentions may make some others think about trying it; your recommendations against such things notwithstanding.

ALL engines are subject to head gasket issues... a certain percentage of them will always fail over the life of the engine; even commercially designed and built diesel engines. However, some engines are prone to more than their fair share of head gasket problems and cylinder head problems due to their basic construction and choice of materials. The Liberty CRD engine, being a consumer grade diesel engine, is a good example of this.

1) It is aluminum head on iron block construction... this fact alone makes it susceptible to head gasket issues and warped heads.

2) It is a high compression engine. This puts more pressure on head gaskets and head gasket integrity.

3) It is a boosted engine. This also puts more pressure on head gaskets and head gasket integrity.

In the case of the CRD engine you have all three of these factors, and as a result you have an engine with a design and material choice that is prone to cylinder head gasket failures; much like the human male is genetically more prone to color blindness than the human female.

It is therefore incumbent upon the engineers who design such engines, (these "delicate" designs are usually due to the bean counters of the manufacturer they work for), to design a robust cooling system that has a very good bypass circuit to guarantee good coolant flow circulating around the engine even when the coolant is not flowing through the radiator. It is also reasonable and prudent to assume that any experimentation with such a cooling system without taking the necessary steps to safeguard the operation of that bypass circuit is going to result in major problems down the road.

Why are cylinder head warping and head gasket failures NOT an all consuming problem in other markets around the world, where there is literally 100 times as many V.M. Motori R425 and R428 engines in use? The ONLY answer that makes sense is the accumulated damage that occurs as a result of specific changes that are made to these engines in the North American market, (ie., ridiculous pollution control equipment added to these engines, exacerbated by the mindless "upgrades" that are performed by backyard engineers trying to undo what the EPA has legislated for these engines).

If you still do not understand, READ THE FOLLOWING...

THE INLINE THERMOSTAT VALVE CONTRIBUTES TO HEAD GASKET FAILURES. The very thing you are experimenting with is the very same thing that will likely cause another head gasket failure. Your boil experiments bear little weight in supporting the theory behind your experiments as you have no possible way to quantify the coolant flow leaking past the radiator circuit valve OR the bypass valve.

In short, you are really doing nothing more than anyone else has done by installing an inline thermostat valve; you are simply finding weak arguments to justify it. Installing a cheap Chinese copy of the O.E. thermostat assembly is actually risking even more problems. As I have mentioned previously, they have been known to catastrophically fail, leading to an engine overheat event and a likely head gasket failure.

Did the following possibility EVER occur to you... If a couple of hundred or so CRD owners tried the inline thermostat upgrade in an attempt to get their engine operating temperatures up to a reasonable level, that the resulting head gasket failures that are directly caused by this would be more than enough to skew the North American statistics on head gasket failures? The inline thermostat valve fix has been around for years now... it is not unreasonable to assume that at least a couple of hundred CRD owners tried this. If even half of the inline thermostat valve installs resulted in a head gasket failure, then that would certainly be enough to make a head gasket problem with the CRD engine a bigger problem than it really is.

BoarX, you call the Liberty CRD a POS.... O.K., you have the right to that opinion. But it is the growing contention of long-term Liberty CRD owners that a LOT of the excess number of issues with the CRD engine appear to be coming from fixes the owners have performed themselves, after looking up dubious home grown upgrades on forums such as this. For the record, I am all for experimentation and looking for ways to improve your vehicles; whatever they may be. All that I ask is that those individuals who carry on this research and development do a lot more homework and think a lot more carefully about what they are doing before coming up with the latest "fix".... and for crying out loud, have a lot more respect for the fundamentals of engine design and the engineers who designed the engine you are working on.

It is my contention that I will not hear from you in the future if you carry on with your experiment. You will likely cause another head gasket failure, whereupon you will give up in frustration and send your CRD to the junkyard. You will blame this on the design or materials of the engine; and while I agree with you that it is not the best design, the impetus for the latest head gasket problem will be you.


Last edited by TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK on Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:29 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
I suppose we will agree to disagree, then.
The solution you are advocating makes a bad situation even worse... even as a short term stop-gap measure.
Cheap upgrades to the Liberty CRD have often caused a lot of unintended consequences later in the life of the vehicle...
1) The elephant hose modification, rather than a Provent 200.
2) Front Wheel Bearing - Right (Liberty CRD)
GSP North America installing an inline fuel pump, rather than doing it right with an in-tank lift pump.
3) Installing an inline thermostat, rather than something that is properly engineered and matches the operation of the O.E. part it replaces; as I have explained ad nauseum on many occasions.
All of these modification have either sometimes caused problems, or will eventually cause problems virtually 100% of the time. It is not worth the time of someone to perform a so-so upgrade and HOPE that it will hold together... doing so has contributed to the bad reputation that the Liberty CRD has.
Regards,

X2


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:13 pm 
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snowballs wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
X2

X3 with comment 'Buy once - Cry once'

X4 HDS-001 there is NO superior solution at ANY price. If something else goes wrong, and you end up with major damage you don't want to fix, the HDS-001 is a fairly high demand item you can re-sell and get most of your money back. Plus because it's relatively small, shipping prices are reasonable as well.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:29 pm 
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Lots of strong discussion going on.
My thoughts are;

I would never use an inline aftermarket thermostat. We need to keep some fluid flowing. Interestingly, the large trucks during winter use a curtain in front of their radiators to partly block air flow. Maybe this option should be considered. I did this for a short while until I replaced the thermostat in my XJ diesel (VM 425). It worked quite well to keep the temperature up. I suspect in you guys situation, a bit of moisture on the outside of the radiator could freeze during warm up & cause problems if an inline prevented all flow.

If I was to go down the road of modifying the thermostat housing for either of my KJ CRD's, I would probably use the largest thermostat that would fit. The one in my XJ diesel is the same as used in many Mercedes diesels & would fit I think. It has the bypass flow valve so would work just like the original. Probably it would be less restrictive to coolant flow when wide open. but it is much more expensive than the one proposed in this thread.

Just my thoughts. I think the original poster has done an excelent job developing a solution.

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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:33 am 
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layback40 wrote:
Lots of strong discussion going on.
My thoughts are;

I would never use an inline aftermarket thermostat. We need to keep some fluid flowing. Interestingly, the large trucks during winter use a curtain in front of their radiators to partly block air flow. Maybe this option should be considered. I did this for a short while until I replaced the thermostat in my XJ diesel (VM 425). It worked quite well to keep the temperature up. I suspect in you guys situation, a bit of moisture on the outside of the radiator could freeze during warm up & cause problems if an inline prevented all flow.

If I was to go down the road of modifying the thermostat housing for either of my KJ CRD's, I would probably use the largest thermostat that would fit. The one in my XJ diesel is the same as used in many Mercedes diesels & would fit I think. It has the bypass flow valve so would work just like the original. Probably it would be less restrictive to coolant flow when wide open. but it is much more expensive than the one proposed in this thread.

Just my thoughts. I think the original poster has done an excelent job developing a solution.



Most certainly, Mark Kapalczynski did his homework when he modified the O.E. thermostat housing. He made the most of what the O.E. housing could offer. However, the O.E. thermostat housing has some serious limitations, and parts for Mark's modified O.E. thermostat are hard to come by.

The O.E. housing is manufactured from cheap cast aluminum, and is not meant to be re-used. If you decide that you want to re-use the O.E. housing to make a serviceable housing with a removable cap, there is not a lot of metal in those castings to drill and tap holes for studs to allow for a removable cap. I think Mark Kapalczynski's modified thermostat uses 2 6mm studs, which is O.K., but as you can plainly see in his posted photos, his two studs must not only hold down the removable cap, but the adapter ring as well, and all of it is sealed with 2 gaskets. There is some concern for the strength and integrity of this design as a result of all of these design weaknesses.

AGAIN, I emphasize that Mr. Kapalczynski did an excellent job. His design weaknesses are the result of being hamstrung by having to use the cheap, throwaway O.E. housing.

Mr. Kapalcznski should be commended for being smart enough not to try and stuff a large thermostat valve into a chamber that is too small for it. He found a thermostat valve that is close to the same size as the O.E. valve. However, it's application is for an engine that is significantly smaller than that of the Liberty CRD engine, and therefore it may have trouble flowing enough coolant in heavy demand situations and/or using a CRD engine that has been modified to put out more power, (and therefore more heat). The valve is not very common, and is only available in 1 opening temperature.


For the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly, the Hemi engine thermostat valve was chosen for the following reasons...

1) It is commonly available. Because MILLIONS of Hemi engines have been produced, virtually every auto parts store in North America has Hemi thermostat valves stocked. Another bonus to the Hemi thermostat valve being so common is that it is inexpensive. I believe that a Stant 46792 "SUPERSTAT" valve goes for about $8.00 USD, and a Stant 48792 O.E. replacement "XACTSTAT" is about $10.00 USD. Both of these are 203 degree Fahrenheit valves.

2) It is capable of flowing a lot of coolant. The FCA line of Hemi petrol V8 engines has about the largest thermostat valve of anything commonly available, and the increase in coolant flow offered by them is undeniable. The Hemi valve is the same, no matter if you use it in a 375 HP pickup truck engine, or a 707 HP Hellcat engine. If your engine is making that kind of power, your cooling system had better be designed to flow a LOT of coolant to handle all of that heat.

3) It is the same design and function as the valve in the O.E. CRD engine thermostat assembly.

4) It is available in at least three different opening temperatures, (180, 190, and 203 degrees Fahrenheit).

5) It has an integral rubber "O" ring gasket around the flange of the valve... No extra gaskets are required when you change out a Hemi engine thermostat valve.

Because the Hemi thermostat valve met all of the above criteria, it was THE ideal valve to use for a well-engineered, serviceable, high quality upgrade thermostat assembly.

Why did I decide to go with an entirely new housing design for the Model 001?


To take maximum advantage of the coolant flow available with the Hemi valve, I needed to not only consider the flow of coolant through the valve, but the space around the valve as well. Coolant flow will likely be hampered if the chamber is too small. As I had no money to research if the size of the O.E. housing was adequate, (many thousands of dollars required to do this in an engineering lab), I decided to match the Model 001 chamber size to the chamber the Hemi thermostat valve normally rests in. The Hemi engine thermostat chamber size had already been tested to be ideal for the Hemi valve; no engineering and/or flow testing on my part is required when you use a chamber size that has already proven itself in millions of Hemi engines used for everything from getting groceries to circle track racing.

However, this decision on my part absolutely necessitated that an entirely new housing for the Model 001 be designed, hence the main reason why the Model 001 is expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: 192º Thermostat - Parts Diagram/dimensions added page 1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:10 am 
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Let us abstain from discussing our risk tolerance levels (which are apparently rather different) since this is technical forum after all.

Peace,
Alex

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