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 Post subject: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:25 pm 
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Below is a list of Bosch TMAP(temperature+manifold absolute pressure) sensors that are the same form factor as the factory sensor. The first one is our factory sensor and the 2nd is the GM version from the Pontiac Solstice GXP and Saturn Sky Redline upgrade kit. The last two are two units I found searching around the internet which allow higher pressure readings than the factory or GM unit. These will require some minor edits to the tune which we have the ability to do now. They have a different scaling characteristic than the Factory/GM unit in that their range is .5-4.5V vs .4-4.65V. The 3.5 Bar sensor is available on Summit Racing although its a long lead time.

Image

Scaling is handled by a map located a 0E33A6 in the 808 version of our tunes, other tunes may vary. The x axis is voltage, however, it is in a range from 0 to 1023 which corresponds to 0-5V(0=0V and 1023=5V). The conversion factor is .004888. The pressure data is in mbar. Simply use a spreadsheet to create a linear model of the voltage vs pressure data in the table above to figure out what values need to be plugged in.

Obviously one should test this if you do put in one of the last two sensors. You dont wanna slap the sensor in and find out the adjustments didnt work properly and that your turbo is running at 3500 mbars of pressure when the tune only wants 2335. Ideally you want a boost gauge and torque pro so you can compare actual pressure to what the ECU is seeing.

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Last edited by mass-hole on Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:04 pm 
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The GM equivalent number to the BOSCH 0 281 002 845 in case anyone needs it is: GM 55206797

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:14 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
The GM equivalent number to the BOSCH 0 281 002 845 in case anyone needs it is: GM 55206797


Nice, ill update the picture and add that in. I think the 3.5 bar is from a fiat and the 4 bar is from some truck.

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:05 pm 
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Would not the voltage 2 be higher rather than lower for the higher mbar scaling vs the stock tmap numbers?
I would have thought that the higher mbar range would also increase the voltage range to the OBC rather than less?
or am I looking at this backwards???
:? :?

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:37 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Would not the voltage 2 be higher rather than lower for the higher mbar scaling vs the stock tmap numbers?
I would have thought that the higher mbar range would also increase the voltage range to the OBC rather than less?
or am I looking at this backwards???
:? :?


That's why it would need scaled in the tune. It's got a wider range of measurement, but still only returns values 0-5v. So if you used one, but didn't tune it to match, you'd be getting significantly more pressure at the same voltage level, which is the only language the ECU speaks.

Unless I completely misunderstood your question, that should explain it a little bit. LOL

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:47 pm 
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Bearded1 wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Would not the voltage 2 be higher rather than lower for the higher mbar scaling vs the stock tmap numbers?
I would have thought that the higher mbar range would also increase the voltage range to the OBC rather than less?
or am I looking at this backwards???
:? :?


That's why it would need scaled in the tune. It's got a wider range of measurement, but still only returns values 0-5v. So if you used one, but didn't tune it to match, you'd be getting significantly more pressure at the same voltage level, which is the only language the ECU speaks.

Unless I completely misunderstood your question, that should explain it a little bit. LOL

Gotya, so just plugging in a different tmap sensor without rescaling the tune will not work.
thanks,

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:14 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Bearded1 wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Would not the voltage 2 be higher rather than lower for the higher mbar scaling vs the stock tmap numbers?
I would have thought that the higher mbar range would also increase the voltage range to the OBC rather than less?
or am I looking at this backwards???
:? :?


That's why it would need scaled in the tune. It's got a wider range of measurement, but still only returns values 0-5v. So if you used one, but didn't tune it to match, you'd be getting significantly more pressure at the same voltage level, which is the only language the ECU speaks.

Unless I completely misunderstood your question, that should explain it a little bit. LOL

Gotya, so just plugging in a different tmap sensor without rescaling the tune will not work.
thanks,


Right! BUT, with the right knowledge of the sensor to be used (as in the sensors above) and the map, it can easily be worked in. But if you just drop it in and don't change anything, you'll definitely see some problems due to the ECU interpreting the wrong pressure from your higher range sensor.

Jake


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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:47 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Would not the voltage 2 be higher rather than lower for the higher mbar scaling vs the stock tmap numbers?
I would have thought that the higher mbar range would also increase the voltage range to the OBC rather than less?
or am I looking at this backwards???
:? :?


Yeah I am not sure why its a tighter scaling, but I found a Bosch PDF that shows the various scaling types for the different TMAPs, and the higher rated sensors all use the narrower Voltage range.

WWDiesel wrote:
Bearded1 wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Would not the voltage 2 be higher rather than lower for the higher mbar scaling vs the stock tmap numbers?
I would have thought that the higher mbar range would also increase the voltage range to the OBC rather than less?
or am I looking at this backwards???
:? :?


That's why it would need scaled in the tune. It's got a wider range of measurement, but still only returns values 0-5v. So if you used one, but didn't tune it to match, you'd be getting significantly more pressure at the same voltage level, which is the only language the ECU speaks.

Unless I completely misunderstood your question, that should explain it a little bit. LOL

Gotya, so just plugging in a different tmap sensor without rescaling the tune will not work.
thanks,


What tmap did u plug in and what happened? Did the Jeep not start or something?

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:04 pm 
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Bearded1 wrote:
Right! BUT, with the right knowledge of the sensor to be used (as in the sensors above) and the map, it can easily be worked in. But if you just drop it in and don't change anything, you'll definitely see some problems due to the ECU interpreting the wrong pressure from your higher range sensor.

Jake


Right, I would imagine that you might get overboost codes with the 3.5 or 4 bar maps and no recalibration, so you may get limp mode. The ECU will first try the VNT control maps for the initial boost setting which will get you close to your target boost, but the sensor will show way more boost than the stock sensor would and the ECU would freak out and open the VNT to cut boost.

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:21 pm 
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If I read that chart right, a stock MAP sensor should read up to about 29 psi of boost. Correct?

So what can't the ECM be programmed to allow 29 psi of boost?

Now, if you wanted more boost without reprogramming the ECM, install the 3.5 or 4 bar sensor. The ECM will think it's seeing 22 psi but it will actually be much higher.

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:25 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
What tmap did u plug in and what happened? Did the Jeep not start or something?

Did not try one, was just curious as to what are the benefits of going to a tmap sensor with the higher mbar range...
Still thinking on how to solve limp mode issue when using high boost levels ~35 or greater... :dizzy:

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:30 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
What tmap did u plug in and what happened? Did the Jeep not start or something?

Did not try one, was just curious as to what are the benefits of going to a tmap sensor with the higher mbar range...
Still thinking on how to solve limp mode issue when using high boost levels ~35 or greater... :dizzy:


I've turned up my boost to about 28 psi by fooling the MAP sensor with a variable resistor.
Only problem is that the ECM thinks boost is too low (when actually it's too high) and sometimes throws a under boost code. But this isn't a problem because underboost doesn't cause limp mode or any other performance issues.

IOW, by adding resistance to the circuit, I've changed the scaling of the sensor.

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:34 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
What tmap did u plug in and what happened? Did the Jeep not start or something?

Did not try one, was just curious as to what are the benefits of going to a tmap sensor with the higher mbar range...
Still thinking on how to solve limp mode issue when using high boost levels ~35 or greater... :dizzy:


I've turned up my boost to about 28 psi by fooling the MAP sensor with a variable resistor.
Only problem is that the ECM thinks boost is too low (when actually it's too high) and sometimes throws a under boost code. But this isn't a problem because underboost doesn't cause limp mode or any other performance issues.

IOW, by adding resistance to the circuit, I've changed the scaling of the sensor.

When mine went into limp the other day when I turned the PP up all the way to max and got on it hard up hill (petal to the floor), it did not throw any codes; cycling ignition switch cleared the limp mode. Strange thing to me was it did not go into limp until after I let off go petal! :shock: Have not turned it up above 50% anymore...

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:34 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
If I read that chart right, a stock MAP sensor should read up to about 29 psi of boost. Correct?

So what can't the ECM be programmed to allow 29 psi of boost?

Now, if you wanted more boost without reprogramming the ECM, install the 3.5 or 4 bar sensor. The ECM will think it's seeing 22 psi but it will actually be much higher.

You could turn the boost up to 29 psi if you wanted, just might not be so good on the stock turbo. The purpose of this is not to trick the ecu, it's to allow people to go with a new turbo, such as dieselguy's, and properly tune it if it can exceed 3+bar absolute pressure.

All turbos really care about is the pressure ratio. So if our turbo can run a 3:1 pressure ratio then it could hit 3 bar at sea level. I am currently running mine at 2.4 bar at .8 bar ambient pressure without to much issue besides maybe some high IAT's, so it may be possible to push a sea level turbo to 3 bar. I don't really wanna be the one to try though.

I honestly just think our turbines are too restrictive. I think our EMP's skyrocket before our compressor runs out of steam.

WWDiesel wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
What tmap did u plug in and what happened? Did the Jeep not start or something?

Did not try one, was just curious as to what are the benefits of going to a tmap sensor with the higher mbar range...
Still thinking on how to solve limp mode issue when using high boost levels ~35 or greater... :dizzy:

The purpose of this is for guys like dieselguy with big turbos that are pushing over 3 bar. If your not then there is no point in a 3.5 or 4 bar map. He gets away without it probably because his turbo flows more air than can be utilized by the injectors so he's not having an issue running rich anyways.
WWDiesel wrote:
When mine went into limp the other day when I turned the PP up all the way to max and got on it hard up hill (petal to the floor), it did not throw any codes; cycling ignition switch cleared the limp mode. Strange thing to me was it did not go into limp until after I let off go petal! :shock: Have not turned it up above 50% anymore...

The power pick is essentially doing exactly what flash did with his resistor mod.

Speaking of that, flash, WWDiesel and I figured out that if he turns up the puck too high in combination with a tune like yetis stage IV it can cause a boost runaway of sorts. Be careful running your resistor and a tune. What I think happens is that when you get enough resistance in there, plus a higher boost request, it can cause the MAP output voltage to not be able to hit what the ecu is looking for and so it keeps trying to make more and more boost.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:56 pm 
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Quote:
I think our EMP's skyrocket before our compressor runs out of steam


What do you mean by EMPs?

I think I have found the upper limit at 28 psi. Not that the turbo cant hit 30 but Im not willing to rev the engine high enough to find out.
And it only hits 28 for a brief moment and then drops to 25. Max sustained boost that I have seen is 26.

I also dont think our turbos are that restrictive.
Restrictive compared to what?
You could go with a larger and less restrictive turbine housing but then you would need more exhaust flow to spin the turbine.

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:17 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Quote:
I think our EMP's skyrocket before our compressor runs out of steam


What do you mean by EMPs?

I think I have found the upper limit at 28 psi. Not that the turbo cant hit 30 but Im not willing to rev the engine high enough to find out.
And it only hits 28 for a brief moment and then drops to 25. Max sustained boost that I have seen is 26.

I also dont think our turbos are that restrictive.
Restrictive compared to what?
You could go with a larger and less restrictive turbine housing but then you would need more exhaust flow to spin the turbine.


EMP = exhaust manifold pressure. Eventually you flow too much to cram through the turbine and it chokes. It can cause reversion which is where the exhaust flows back into the cylinder because the pressure is too high. It also just makes the engine work harder to force the exhaust out on the exhaust stroke.

I dont think the compressor size is restrictive either, at least not right now, but I think the exhaust side is. GDE agrees. A larger turbine would help. If our turbines are truly that restrictive than a larger turbine could actually increase power with the same or less boost. Bigger turbine means lower emp's, less energy required to expel the exhaust gasses, and possibly better volumetric efficiency.

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:33 pm 
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But the GDE turbo upgrade is smaller than the factory turbo.
Is it not more restrictive?

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:56 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Quote:
I think our EMP's skyrocket before our compressor runs out of steam


What do you mean by EMPs?

I think I have found the upper limit at 28 psi. Not that the turbo cant hit 30 but Im not willing to rev the engine high enough to find out.
And it only hits 28 for a brief moment and then drops to 25. Max sustained boost that I have seen is 26.

I also dont think our turbos are that restrictive.
Restrictive compared to what?
You could go with a larger and less restrictive turbine housing but then you would need more exhaust flow to spin the turbine.

I think our turbos may be a lot more capable than you realize! I know it will boost to 35 psig and maybe higher, just not sure since my mechanical gauge range tops out at 35. And when I observed the 35 boost I was in full lockup accelerating up a long incline at ~70 mph. Do not remember what the RPM's were, but they probably were a lot less than 3,000....

I would think the limiting factor would be the amount of flow through the head and you would reach a point of max flow through the valves and the turbo would only spin so fast based on this flow and make only a certain amount of boost corresponding to the flow. The flow through the head and valves would be like an orifice and only allow you to flow so much through them, spinning the turbo at X speed and producing X thrust.... :?: :?:
I know on the high power Dodge Cummins I have seen, they put a small turbo in series with a larger turbo to precharge the big turbo to achieve the higher boost levels to produce massive amounts of HP and torque....of course they add a lot more fuel as well....

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 Post subject: Re: List of TMAP Sensors that should work(some need tuning)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:28 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
But the GDE turbo upgrade is smaller than the factory turbo.
Is it not more restrictive?


Its a GTB1756 which is a gen 3 VNT turbo vs ours which is a GT2056 gen 2 VNT. The 17 signifies the relative turbine size in that it just tells you if its bigger or smaller than another in the turbo series. The 17 doesnt actually mean anything with regards to the size. The 56 is the compressor wheel diameter in mm.

So it is a 17 vs a 20, but its a gen 3 so I dont know that the turbine is actually smaller. GDE claims the turbine flows better and it has better bearings so it can spin faster. Dieselguy was looking into the turbine wheel from the GTB2056 from the EcoDiesel ram, and even though both turbos are 2056's the GTB turbine is bigger.

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