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 Post subject: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:45 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
MPROP
Fuel Quantity Solenoid
Fuel Quantity Valve
Fuel Flow Control Valve
Fuel Control Actuator Flow Control Valve
Fuel Metering Unit
Fuel Pressure Regulator

These are just a few of the 20+ terms that I've found, that refer to this guy. All but the last one are all somewhat fairly accurate in describing one or all functions it performs. The last one is inaccurate, as there is no pressure sensing ability or function. That only comes in to play when combined with ECU and Fuel Pressure Sensor.

Here it is with the O-rings removed.

Image
Image

Boredom and curiosity combined again to urge me to destroy a (probably) perfectly good unit, just to see how it's made and how it works.

Where this sits, is at the back of the CP3 unit, and is an externally replaceable component in the fuel supply chain.
It is the final component of the low pressure function, and determines how much fuel is delivered to the high pressure pumping plungers.
The method of control is through RMS Pulse Width Modulation signal from the ECM, same as glow plugs as well as the Fuel Pressure Solenoid on the rail.

Here are the major parts separated (from left to right)
Valve body on the left, ferrous slug with actuator rod, and travel limit washer, and the magnetic solenoid body on the right.
So basically any description with the terms "Fuel","valve", "Actuator", or "Solenoid" are technically, in part, correct.

Image

Inside pic of the solenoid. Notice there is no spring behind the ferrous actuator slug.

Image

Business end of the actuator slug. Notice the drilled hole. Having a hole here prevents the slug from having hydraulic lock from being immersed in fuel. You will also notice that this end of the drilled hole is oblong. this is because the end of the hole is drilled at an angle. When the actuator moves under spring or magnetic force, this forces the actuator to rotate a little. This helps longevity, by not having the same part of the actuator rubbing on the same part of the tube all the time, back and forth like a file.

Image

This next little doohickey is the valve where all the critical action takes place. One side of the fat ring part, is the part with the O-rings that protrudes into the backside of the CP3. The other side sits internal to the solenoid body, and the actuator rod hammers back and forth under spring force to open and magnetic force to close the valve.

Image

Another view from straight on where the actuator rod goes in. You can see the part of the valve that gets hammered on. The holes you see are simply there to prevent hydraulic lock as it goes back and forth.

Image

Another picture of the solenoid with the actuator rod inside it, as it would be assembled against the valve body.

Image

Here you see the valve components disassembled. From Right to left this time:
The valve body as installed has viton O-rings assembled in the grooves on the valve bedy. The holes in the valve body allow the measured amount of fuel from the internal valve to exit and travel through internal passage in the CP3, to the high pressure pumping plungers. This determines the output volume at any given moment, that the CP3 is capable of
The shiny slug looking thing is the actual valve. it's not a slug, it's more of a cup, that the spring to the left of it rides in. All the way to the left, is simply a pressed in cap, with a relief to keep the other end of the spring centered, and have something to push against. The pressed in cap has a hole centered, that allows fuel from the Cascade Overflow Valve to enter the Metering Valve.

Image

And here is the star of the show.
The Metering valve, showing the nearly microscopic holes that the fuel needs to pass through in proper quantity.
There are different variations of these depending on application.
Some holes are rectangular, some are triangular. There can be 2, 3 or 4 holes.
This one has 2 rectangular holes.
I do not believe it's original but it's the one that was on my vehicle when I bought it.

Image

Another picture showing the port on the other side. I noticed this port is sharply rectangular, where the other side has a tiny machined slot in line with the direction of movement.
When you hear or read of someone who races diesels talk about getting a ported MPROP for better flow, this is the piece they are talking about.
Porting simply provides a larger opening, thus a larger amount of fuel going to the pumping plungers. It raises the pressure and volume potential in the rail.
Usually the result is a crappy idle and more top end horsepower. Injectors seem to object really strongly to having super high pressures but trying to inject just a tiny bit for a normal idle.

Image

another photo of all the valve components and where they come from

Image

So your basic operation starts from turning the key, at this point there is only spring pressure, and it's holding the valve wide open, to get maximum fuel rail pressure.
Once the vehicle starts, and the ECM kicks in, it looks at the fuel rail pressure sensor, and begins to make adjustments to the amount of fuel that is delivered to the rail, by applying PWM voltage to the electromagnetic servo, which moves the plunger and actuator rod against the other side of the valve cup, reducing the volume of fuel entering the high pressure pumping plungers. If you stomp on the accelerator, it sees that, and responds to the added fuel needs by reducing electromagnetic force, allowing the spring to push the valve cup open further.
These adjustments, like with the Fuel Pressure Solenoid, are being made hundreds of times per second, as ordered by the ECM.
Clean fuel, with augmented lubrication is vital to longevity and proper function.

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Excellent write-up.
Thanks for the dissection.
Here is a drawing of the assembled unit.
Image

I wonder what the differences are between these solenoids on the CRD, Duramax, and Cummins.
Some Duramax and Cummins guys have modified their solenoids, although I dont fully understand why.
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/07-5-09-3rd-gen-6-7l-performance-parts-discussion/243705-diy-cp3-mod.html

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:37 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
One thing I have found during this learning experience Is that a CP3 does not equal a CP3, and much of it has to do with the FQS and the Over Flow Valve.
For example:
A CP3 from our jeeps uses an "internal pressure" limit of 73psi.
This is the pressure that the gearotor pump supplies to all 3 of it's ports once the engine is running. (the first 2 are prioritized internal supply for lubrication, cooling, and protection of the CP3 unit it's self.)
Yet the very same (presumably) CP3 on a dodge Cummins is 180psi, and yet again, on a GM Duramax it is 200psi. Mercedes applications have their own and there is another that I forget that has another internal pressure value yet.
This is something that is never outlined on all the Ebay deals where most people think CP3=CP3. It doesn't.
And once these units are for sale there, it's because they don't deliver the final rail pressure these racing diesel engine builders want.
This isn't because of the FQS, usually it's because the High Pressure pumping plungers are worn to the point they simply cant. And that means can't for anyone, not just a D'Max.
One of the ways they get higher fuel delivery from the pumps is through porting and supply. Increased supply potential comes in the form of a FASS unit or similar, that increases the pressure and flow potential into the CP3 pump.
With porting usually they start with the OFV plate, and drill larger, the supply to the FQS. Then they take a tiny grinder to the FQS cup-valve ports to allow more fuel to pass to the pumping plungers when they align. Finally they replace the inlet valve to the pumping plungers with ones that open farther. The effect is the same as a bigger cam on an engine. More lift - more flow potential, only you're working with non-compressible liquid, rather than compressible gas. Now that they have max efficiency potential up to the pumping plungers, they replace the drive shaft and polygonal lift cam with one that provides greater lift potential. Bosch says they can increase stroke up to 10mm per plunger per cycle with no modification to the pump body. That's 3 pumping plungers each pumping 6 times per revolution, at a substantially higher volume that original.
You'd think they would be happy there, but heck no.
NOW because there is absolutely no relation between pump timing and engine timing, they get smaller drive sprockets, and overdrive the friggin things.
For some even this isn't enough, and they put up to 4 of these on, each with their own individual controller.

Sorry, I got a little carried away regarding the CP3.
My point before I distracted myself is, not only do the CP3's vary with application in regards to pressures, they also vary in regards to the valve inside this FQS. A valve with 3 triangle ports is going to flow differently than a valve with 4 rectangle ports or one with 2 circular ports, even if all have the identical internal pressure.
I have no evidence but it wouldn't surprise me if there were differences in springs with application as well.

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:08 am 
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Excellent write up....hope I never have to dive into this area on my trusty old Export 2002 2.5 CRD but if I do I will make sure that I get the correct genuine assembly for my Jeep. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:37 am 
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Just curious, was the port configuration the same or similar on the FQS you purchased as opposed to the one you removed and dissected? :?

And again, all these tiny precisely machined fuel metering components just reinforces the very real need for much better filtration, (like a 2 micron secondary fuel filter), that what CDJ provided OEM from the factory!
Your statement "Clean fuel, with augmented lubrication is vital to longevity and proper function." is so very true!!!! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
The one I took apart was the one that was on when I purchased the Jeep. I'm fairly sure it's not original.
Notice that funky "X" on one of the mounting tabs in the first pic. That was there when I first pulled it out, and it isn't something made by the factory. Whether it's the right one or not, I don't know.
The one I put in was new, I've never taken it apart, so I don't know it's port configuration.
I did have it out last night, and test it for function with air, and a string of 'D' batteries in an old flashlight body. With no energy, only spring pressure it flows. With voltage from the batteries (~4.8V dc) it snaps shut and no flow, so it works. Whether the signal from the ECM is right or not, I don't know. I can stare at it on an oscilloscope, and know the duty cycle, but whether it is correct, I have no spec to compare it to.

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
A unique opportunity presented it's self to look at another valve application.

This one is from a Dodge 5.9L, which actually is truly a pressure regulator, as they have no Fuel Pressure Solenoid on the rail. The spring is identical in length and as far as I can tell, the same in strength as well.
The size and shape of the valve porting are completely different from the other one. (although I don't know it's application). It seems quite likely that although they are all identical in appearance, every application has it's own unique valving. Even similar systems to our CRD, such as Mercedes / Dodge 2.7L, Mercedes / Dodge 3.0L all have unique part numbers. It's unlikely that using even a 2.7 FQS in our 2.8's would work without problems.

Image
Image


[edit]
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I pulled mine out and took a snap of the socket this goes in.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Unfortunately, in the real scheme of things, they have different part numbers for a reason, they are NOT the same!!! :roll:
I am sure you and most have already ascertained this fact though?

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:30 pm 
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Yes, but that's why I apply my destructive talents towards exercises like this in which I learn. Not from "soandso told me this" but seeing the proof one way or the other.
And the reason this started was because a couple of "soandso's" told me that they were all the same.

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:09 am 
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Ok, next you need to investigate the cascade overflow valve :)

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:47 am 
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I would love to.
The CP3 are expensive though, even the worn out ones on Ebay.
All I know at this point is where it is in the fuel flow schematic, and all of it's various functions in doing what it does. Not how.

I've read a couple really good write-ups by fellas rebuilding CP3s for Mercedes application and Volkswagen.
But now that I know that the same basic product is configured in so many different ways, I'd love the chance to tear a few apart and see what makes them unique.
It's one thing to know in theory. It's another to lay eyes and hands on.
It makes a huge difference when trying to diagnose a problem in your mind. Having seen it first hand, it's easier to go through the process in your head and know what can cause the symptoms presented.

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
JUST for poops and squiggles:

I decided to waste a day to try something. Mostly out of curiosity, since getting the wiring corrected and the engine running well.

The magnet casing from the original FQS that I disassembled completely was damaged and the valve chamber has a sticking spot in it, so I used the magnetic solenoid and valve chamber from the Dodge Cummins FQS and the valve cup from the original FQS that was in the CRD when I bought it.
I assembled it with the original spring and pressed in spring seat, and installed it in the engine.

With the "who knows" valve that was in it, it works just about the same as the brand new CRD specific one. It may be the proper valve, but not knowing for sure, at least I know I now have a spare that works. :BINGO:

I wanted to try the valve from the Dodge just to see if it would work, :frankie: but the valve was also sticky in either valve chamber, so at least this one probably wouldn't work with what I have available. If I were able to try it I'm guessing it would probably run, but would most likely pop some codes. With the amount of fuel it allows, it would be working constantly overtime trying to balance the pressure and volume.

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:29 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
I would love to.
The CP3 are expensive though, even the worn out ones on Ebay.
All I know at this point is where it is in the fuel flow schematic, and all of it's various functions in doing what it does. Not how.

I've read a couple really good write-ups by fellas rebuilding CP3s for Mercedes application and Volkswagen.
But now that I know that the same basic product is configured in so many different ways, I'd love the chance to tear a few apart and see what makes them unique.
It's one thing to know in theory. It's another to lay eyes and hands on.
It makes a huge difference when trying to diagnose a problem in your mind. Having seen it first hand, it's easier to go through the process in your head and know what can cause the symptoms presented.
I just saw this. If you want, I have a cp3 pump I replaced, but I butchered it a bit when I took it out so now it doesn't spin at all. I'm sure though you can open it and maybe even replace the bearing (this was my issue for replacing it, the bearing had those squeaky noises, but it turn fine).

Let me know if you're interested. Who knows, when you open it you may be able to rebuild it, but worse case, you'll be able to look inside.

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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Definitely Interested!
The OFV is in the back, so if the drive is buggered, at least we should be able to dissect and document the overflow valve.
At best, if I'm lucky, you might end up with a spare!.

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BLING
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GM 15976889
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2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
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 Post subject: Re: FQS Dissection and explanation
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:52 pm 
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The cp3 is complete with the back valve, which is still good. PM me your address so I can ship it.

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