the reason gas engines don't last as long boils down to higher levels of constant heat. nothing more nothing less. If the fuel was the main factor you would see gas fuel injectors failing at a higher rate than diesel fues injectors, however that's not the case. I did read your resons in the other forum, nothing I haven't heard before. I may be a simple welder but I do understand the chemistry behind what is going on here. I also understand how US corn exportation is what is killing the farming industry in Mexico and much of South and Central America when rather than under cutting prices of small farmers elseware we could be supporting our farmers and be using a portion of this to produce more biofuels. I don't believe this is the solution, but it is a start. The use of algae farms would be the best solution as far as production of raw material but the capital to build a plant like this is rather hard to come by.

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formaly 2005 CRD sport w/True Flow air filter

currently 2006 Dodge Ram Mega Cab 4X4 2500 CTD

A diesel engine is considered a 30 year engine. 10 years tells you very little. Especially if we are talking B5-B20. Once again, BD is probably not an issue for your typical person who disposes of their car when the payments have all been made. But for those of us who intend this to be our last car for at least two decades, yes it is likely to cause an issue. Whether or not it is a lubricant is irrelevant to the fact that it breaks down that which it comes in contact with. Initially that is a benefit, it removes soot and other deposits on the engine(although that can clog injectors), but over time it is also eating away at the metal itself, and yes even a mild solvant will destroy metal over time.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Good old water is one of the most corrosive substances on earth, yet its safe to drink. It'll destroy metal however.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Yes, they are. In fact I referenced this above when I mentioned the source of my information on the effects of BD on the VM CRD engines. He is working on a version of it used by the Army in fact, and they have done testing. It seems your own information backs up at least part of his story, the fact that they are using these engines internally and testing on them.


I would agree with this mentality if BD were a friendlier fuel. Unfortunatly it as it stands today, is not. It is water and energy intensive to produce, and in many nations its creating mass deforestation(Brazil has slashed HUGE sections of thier rainforest for their Ethanol production, and European BD production has deforested as much as 80% of some southeast asian nations).

The intent is good. But as implemented now it does more harm than good.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Bingo. Water contamination of BioD is the most destructive problem you can have with it. Whereas flammable ingredients will burn when emitted from the injector under high pressure, water will only damage the cylinder innards. Familiar with "waterjet cutting"? It uses about the same pressure that the common rail runs at. There are two major problems that can crop up with biodiesel on modern engines (attacking rubber parts is the most commonly known problem but is not really relevant with any engine produced in the last 10-15 years). Those are incomplete combustion, and fuel contamination.

Incomplete combustion is usually the result of injecting biodiesel into the cylinder that is not at a temperature it can properly atomize at. A diesel engine burns fuel from the outside of the droplets towards the center. Thus, the larger the droplet, the longer it takes to burn. If the fuel is not atomizing properly, you will get "globs" coming out of the injector rather than a fine mist. These "globs" are not able to fully combust during the cylinder's cycle, and you end up with coking/smoke/gunk that tears up the engine. You need to make sure you are using a BioD blend that is appropriate for your temperature range.

Fuel contamination comes in variety of forms. It can consist of methanol, leftover catalyst, glycerin, water, or veg oil. The first three are removed from properly washing your fuel, and are easy to rid the fuel of unless you have REALLY bad process. Water in fuel is the result of improperly drying your fuel, or storing it poorly where condensation can fall on it. Poor storage can also lead to bio-growth on your fuel (same as Petro-D), which an algaecide and filtering can take care of. The final contaminant is the most common, and the only one that ASTM tests for (it is not the end-all test for biodiesel quality). Leftover vegoil in your fuel is the result of an incomplete reaction when processing your fuel. You either didn't use enough reagents (catalyst and methanol), or you did not give it ample opportunity to react (not enough heat/mixing). if you have vegoil in your fuel, different droplets of fuel will behave dramatically differently when injected in the cylinder. This will almost certainly lead to coking and cylinder damage, as vegoil at unheated temperatures will almost never fully burn when injected into a standard diesel engine. For the home brewer, "The Methanol Test" will allow you to pinpoint under-converted fuel.

As long as you have contaminant-free, fully-converted biodiesel, and you are using it at an appropriate temperature range, you should not have any problems with it. it will NOT damage a modern engine. This stuff isn't rocket science, but making it properly, consistently, and efficiently with inconsistent input feedstocks takes lots of TLC.

Edited-to-add:
As mentioned before, biodiesel is an excellent solvent, and will clean any prior crud out of your fuel system. This is not due to any problem with biodiesel, but instead due to the crap that is in petro-diesel. You should plan on replacing your fuel filter shortly after switching to BioD if you've been running PetroD for awhile. Biodiesel's solvent properties will not attack metal engine parts. Whoever suggested that needs to take a chemistry class.

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2006 Liberty Sport CRD

Watched one of the video's on this link and I believe they smoke a lot of hemp too.

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Sold 05 CRD Patriot Blue, hole in the roof, Trailer tow, factory skids, LSD, Saris load bars, Michelin LTX M/S
Current Bright white 2010 Dakota Quad Cab 4x4 V8

It's 'empirical', not "empiracle"



Stop pointing to anecdotes





You're some sort of genius, aren't you?



Would this reply display the same critical insight and erudition as your posts in this thread?

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2006 CRD Limited Dk Khaki
InMotion S-II, GDE TCM, Cummins Lift Pump, Mishimoto CAC hoses
Cooper Discoverer ATP LT245/75, Rola roof basket, JCR S3 sliders
OME lift+JBA UCA's, custom front hitch receiver, Mile Marker winch
All J Products rear cargo shelf
Sips biodiesel as if it were 12 y/o Scotch

Very good job attacking the messenger. Do you have any actual information you wish to add? And while your at it, perhaps some credentials would be nice. I've given mine.

I know you have bought into what is essentially a religion, and yes, there are large corporations who have a very vested interest in selling you this, but that does not make it true.

And I am sorry you don't like any anecdotes I choose to toss in. Perhaps you have a better way to respond to the usage of anecdotes by all sides in this thread? Do you have a 30 year study handy of the effects of BD on engines? Without such studies, all we have to go on are anecdotes. Unless everyone here is prepared to link all statements to peer reviewed studies, there really is no point calling it all out. Otherwise, we can simply look at a person's credentials and involvement and decide whether they are credible or not.

Personally I have no financial stake in this either way. My main concern here is that the US is trying to jump from the frying pan and into the fire. There are possibilities out there, but they will take more time and research, thats just a fact of life. Unfortunatly, most people are too impatient to wait for the results. More often than not, they do more harm than good.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Credentials? I speak and write English fluently. I missed yours. What are they again?

Anyway, your ideas, such as they are, have been substantively addressed by other posters in this thread. You haven't a clue what you are talking about though you're wordy in saying it.





btw . . . The 'anecdotes' comment was mocking your response to OldNavy

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2006 CRD Limited Dk Khaki
InMotion S-II, GDE TCM, Cummins Lift Pump, Mishimoto CAC hoses
Cooper Discoverer ATP LT245/75, Rola roof basket, JCR S3 sliders
OME lift+JBA UCA's, custom front hitch receiver, Mile Marker winch
All J Products rear cargo shelf
Sips biodiesel as if it were 12 y/o Scotch

Good for you. So, who have you spoken with on this topic who has degrees in agriculture, biology or ecology? It seems rather important that when you make an assertion, the science actually backs it up.

Ask yourself this: Why have biofuels not taken off? They were first heavily researched during the 70's. The corporations backing them are every bit as all-powerful as the oil distributers(the large farming conglomerates). They recieve large tax subsidies and over the years have recieved billions in R&D from both federal and private/public sources.

The answer is simple: They are not produced with an energy surplus. You cannot make a sustainable energy business when you produce less energy than you consume. Furthermore, as I have pointed out elsewhere, farmable land is a finite resource, further constrained by the will of the people to be able to actually go out in nature every so often(rather than bulldozing all forests into farmland as they are doing in Brazil). We do not have the water to farm on that scale, and we do not have the land to do so either.

Unfortunatly there is obviously no way to convince you. I'm sorry you have issues with facts. There is nothing I can do about it. I can't spend all day here refuting each and every post on these forums purporting to 'disprove' everything I say, I have a job and a life. So I'll leave you with this: Two years ago I also thought BD was the future. Then I learned a bit about it and agriculture. My suggestion is to go do the same yourself. You will likely be suprised by the results. Keep in mind though that many of the pro-Biofuel websites you see are being funded by corporate interests with just as much motivation and backing to see that industry explode as the oil companies have had in protecting thier cash cow. There is no 'plucky little guy' in this issue.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

After all the discussion and banter, there is one undeniable fact...our (US) energy problems are very complex and will not be solved by one source. Economic, Political, Resource, Cultural, World Events and other factors will further complicate a perfect solution to our energy crisis. It is going to take a long term solution that goes above those roadblocks to improve the situation. America and Americans need to re-evaluate how we go about our daily activities and not take for granted that we will always have relatively "cheap" fuel to burn and waste. Honestly, there is no reason to have any passenger vehicles (does not include work vehicles that tow ect) that get 15 city and 19 hwy miles per gallon. We need to accept the fact that we need cars and reasonable SUVs that get 20 city and 25 hwy or better. When gas/Diesel prices exceed $3.00 this summer (and we know they will), I am going to find ways to cut back on trips and save some fuel+$$$. The EPA needs to fix the Emission Standards to reflect emissions relative to MPG Estimates (when you figure all the energy used to get gas/diesel to the pumps) so that higher mileage cars can get small breaks in immediate emissions to reflect thier overall emissions per gallon.. The list of needed improvements is almost overwhelming, but we have to start somewhere.

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Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport
Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph

Guys.. come on.. Attacking each other will get you nowhere fast. It does however have slight entertainment value. Questioning folk’s credentials is condescending and insulting. There are several people on this forum with advanced degrees in technology and the sciences. If you are going to start questioning credentials I believe the questioner should provide a quality source (alternative fuel research related) for every person he or she puts down... that means I want to see some sources with valid research instead of pointing to other forum threads. (APA format please) At the end of the day we still need an alternative fuel. I see good points from both sides. Some have given up on trying one method, have already formed a strong opinion and are going in another direction. Others are still trying to make it work. Some of us aren't rocket scientist, some of us are. I personally enjoy reading the opinions and ideas of all rather than reading school aged bickering.

Darby - I absolutely agree with everything you just said. In fact thats one of the larger points I make when I give talks on the topic. There is no 'silver bullet' for this problem and there really never will be. Our oil based economy has gone about as far as it can go, and its successors are going to have to use a mix from various renewable and non-renewable sources. The problem with BioFuels is that people are looking at them as though they are some sort of magic bullet, and ignoring the drawbacks. Everyone just wants the simplicity of going to the pump and putting fuel in and not worrying about if its right for their car, but its really never going to be as simple as it was over the past century again(short of going all-electric, which has its own drawbacks).

I do have some hope for the algae based BD that is being worked on now however. But even that is going to require a ton of chemical fertilizer for the nitrogen required.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Not to get off the subject; north of where I live there are plans to build a 4 BILLION dollar coal to jet fuel/diesel plant. It is going to be in/near Wellsville, OH. They are to start on it in 08 and it will take 4 years to complete. The company building this plant claims that 1200 miners will need to work 24/7 to provide the amount of coal they need each year for the conversion process. We have lots of coal around here. They say that Pittsburgh Airport will be the major purchaser of their jet fuel. According to them the diesel will very clean. We need about 50-100 of they plants built in the U.S. One can only dream.

This is actually the Tropsch-Fischer process, and it is a very important intermediate step to wean ourselves off of foreign oil. There is enough coal in Montana alone to supply the US for about 40 years, and Montana represents only about a third of the US's coal supply.

The downsides are that coal mining is not environmentally friendly, and the coal based fuel, while cleaner than oil based, is still a pollutant and still puts out tons of CO2 when combusted.

That said, its a good first step to at least get us independant from the middle east(a serious priority). The good news is that the feds have caught on to that and are beginning to fund it.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Biodiesel is corrosive to old natural rubber parts and to the diesel gunk inside your engine. Other than that the fuel is GOOD for the engine.

Most modern vehicles do not have any rubber in them. Most well-used diesels have a lot of gunk in them.

The fuel runs great in most engines and will not hurt any of them.

The main complaint/problem with biodiesel is that it gels in cold temps.

I run B20 up here in Seattle, where it is always cold. In the summer, I often run B100.

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Yours Truly,

Special Agent

Okay, wow, just read the whole thread. LOL.

Reflex, you started out using the anecdote of your friend's unpublished study to prove that BioD was corrosive and would hurt our engines.

Then you moved on to just not liking BioD because of socio-political/economic/environmental reasons.

I'm not part of any "religion", but I do think we should be getting off the oil.

All of that aside, don't you think there would be some published scientific material to prove your initial point, ie, that it is corrosive and damaging to metal. Or, that is, MORE corrosive/damaging than regular diesel is?

I've read a lot of material and found the OPPOSITE of your claim.

But then again, maybe the evil corporations paid for all those studies... ;D

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Yours Truly,

Special Agent

No offense intended, but I think I'll believe the guy who's done long haul testing on these engines over people who have owned them two years or less. My bet is that you will start seeing problems around the 15 year mark, as that is what their testing showed them. Metal is not magically immune to corrosive influence, although obviously it is more resistant to it than other materials. That said, what you should really worry about is your injectors, which will have problems with it sooner rather than later.

But if your only planning to run it for a few years, and trade it in on something newer, obviously you aren't going to have any more of an issue than your average car.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

I have many reasons to not be pro-Biofuel. I listed several in this thread because inevitably if you state only a single reason, people will find a way to minimize it. To put it simply, here is the condensed version:

1) It will wear out your engine faster. You don't have to believe this or not, but it will, and it specifically causes problems with the VM Motori CRD's. Delivering this information is just my attempt to do a service for the people who come to these forums with a question about whether or not it will harm their vehicle. I know the die-hards will not change their mind and I don't expect to convert you. I'd be doing a disservice however if I simply said nothing.

2) It is not an energy positive. There are multiple studies demonstrating this. I am not here to do your homework for you. Since people on this forum are not scientists, there is no real way for me to demonstrate why some studies are superior to others. And some people, such as DadsDiesel have explicitly mocked me simply for my apparant education level, so there isn't much point in providing this level of 'proof' to people who ridicule 'the educated'.

3) It is water intensive. Few people realize that the US is quickly approaching a water crisis. The largest source of water in the country is the Ogallala Aquifer(aka High Plains aka Great Plains). Water is being extracted from it at a rate of 80-100 times its rate of natural recharge. When it runs out(current estimates say in 40-60 years) the midwest will become a desert and this nation's agriculture industry will be finished. Increasing our agriculture burden with BioFuels will dramatically increase the rate of depletion of the aquifer. This is quite possibly the largest near-term disaster the US is facing, and its recieving very little press. More info on the Aquifer itself here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer

4) Due to #2 above, increased agriculture and the machinery needed to harvest actually increases our dependence on foreign oil imports. As we all know, we are busy getting killed overseas right now to defend our 'right' to cheap gas. This would make that situation worse.

5) It is not environmentally sound. Farming is extremely high impact environmentally, requiring the clearing of natural rain forests and the carbon sinks they provide(corn, soybeans, etc do not absorb nearly what old growth does). Furthermore, the runoff and ground contamination from farming is some of the worst pollution in the country due to the use of fertilizers, pesticides and other chemicals. To those who think we can farm without those things on the scale needed for biofuels, I have no idea what to say. The only reason farming is remotely as productive as it is today in the amount of land we utilize is because of our heavy use of genetic modification, herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers. If you remove those you make it even more impossible to ever be even energy neutral, much less energy surplus with the process. Furthermore it depletes the soil rapidly, the point of fertilizers is to eliminate the need for crop rotation, having to go back to that would remove 2/3 of our avialable farmland on any given year. More info on the impact of mass farming here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farming#En ... l_problems

6) It will not reduce global warming. The farm equipment needed puts of large amounts of CO2, the burned fuels still emit CO2, and the cropland does not absorb CO2 at nearly the rate of natural land. In fact even some varities of grass absorb more CO2 than corn or soy products. This means that by removing the natural carbon sinks that forests provide and replacing them with crops to grow biofuels you are actually defeating the purpose of switching in the first place. Brazil is a huge offender here, National Geographic's cover story last month was about their mass deforestation to plant sugar cane for ethanol. More information on deforestation and its environmental effects here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation#Brazil
European BioDiesel production deforesting southeast asia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_oil#E ... ral_impact
Brazil's deforestation for ethanol here: http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/ ... index.html

Other reasons which I will not detail -

- It is not scalable as other nations come online due to the limited amount of available global farmland
- Even if all farm land was put into use today, less than 5% of just the US fuel needs would be covered
- It will raise all food prices due to land being used for biofuels that was being used for feedstock(already happening, info here: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/11/ ... bxcorn.php )

I could go on and on. As I have stated before, there is hope on the horizon in the form of algae based BD( Info here: http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html ). But that is still a little ways off. In the meantime, yes, we are doing more damage than good by converting, and increasing the rates of global warming, destruction of the biosphere and depletion of drinkable water.

I hope this makes my position more clear. This is why you see lip service towards biofuels but little action. Those in the know are aware of these drawbacks, and they know that it cannot be done on a wide scale until they are overcome.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Reflex - have you seen anything on the use of a higher oil producing crop like rape seed?

I hear exactly what your are saying and agree with a lot of it. I do agree 100% with you on corn and sugar cane based fuels. there is way too much water use and just too much acreage needed to produce the amount of product we would use.

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formaly 2005 CRD sport w/True Flow air filter

currently 2006 Dodge Ram Mega Cab 4X4 2500 CTD