06+ with Locker? Manual?

moose · **Posted:** Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:51 pm

OK, I've had enough of the GD ESP/TC software. I stopped in and looked at TJ's I was so mad at the Libby. I just have gotten so tired of the ESP/TC working great in the snow, but then kicking in on dry road turn/accl combos. I'm thinking a LSD or Locker might make it better (it's less of a cost than the beating I take selling a 10 month old truck). Has anyone put a LSD or Locker on their '06+ KJ? With a manual? looking for data points. Thanks

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:47 pm

So do you believe that the tires are actually slipping when you pull out? If the locker was locked when you pulled out, and mine usually is since alot of torque is on it, then both back wheels would be forced to turn at the same rate. That means the traction control would think everything is 'ok' and shouldnt kick in.

But I still do not understand why its kicking in unless you are getting some wheel slip.

If you did happen to get a Wrangler, would you get a manual(do they come in one?)? I would test drive the heck out of it to make sure that it doesnt do the same thing. :shock:

That would be awful. :lol:

jason thompson · **Posted:** Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:01 pm

I dont think that either would realy help
It sounds to me like the ESP does not know that the jeep is turning and trys to fix the fact that in a turn 1 rear wheel must move faster or slower than the other because one is traveling further than the other

A locker will not fix this either ,it is laws of physics (sp?) that force one wheel to move further in that respect faster than the other
Newton knew this way back when and DCX thinks they can change them?

What about an ECM ,computer, from a KJ with out ESP that should fix it
or just figure out where the wheel sensors are and by pass them that way it thinks that every thing is fine and dandy all the time

scoobybri · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:52 am

I'm running a lift and slightly bigger tires than stock and I never have the ESP/TC kick in unless I'm actually losing traction. In fact, I wish it would kick in sooner in some circumstances. But turns on dirt roads never trigger it unless I'm heavy on the throttle and light on the traction. (The only time it kicks in is when I force it to like slamming the throttle in gravel.)

Have you had your wheel speed sensors checked? There's been some threads I've read where a bad speed sensor was causing the ESP to kick in too early.

BTW...The 235/85/16 tires you are running are almost 10% bigger in circumference than the stock 235/70/16. The 245/75/16 that everyone runs with lifts is only 5% bigger. It could be that the almost 10% difference from stock can't be properly compensated by the ESP system. Just a thought.

I can't see where a locker would not work with the ESP since if both tires are forced to run at the same speed, ESP would never kick in. LSD might be a different story since it will allow the wheels to spin at different speeds. ESP might try to fight the LSD. One thing though...you are complaining about turning on dirt roads triggering the ESP. You wouldn't want to be turning on a road with the locker engaged.

moose · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:46 am

Jeepjeepster wrote:

So do you believe that the tires are actually slipping when you pull out? If the locker was locked when you pulled out, and mine usually is since alot of torque is on it, then both back wheels would be forced to turn at the same rate. That means the traction control would think everything is 'ok' and shouldnt kick in.

But I still do not understand why its kicking in unless you are getting some wheel slip.

If you did happen to get a Wrangler, would you get a manual(do they come in one?)? I would test drive the heck out of it to make sure that it doesnt do the same thing. :shock:

That would be awful. :lol:

I don't think I am getting slip when it's dry. Those MT's have a ton of grip...

And I've been careful to look at '06 leftovers with no ESP.

moose · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:53 am

scoobybri wrote:

I'm running a lift and slightly bigger tires than stock and I never have the ESP/TC kick in unless I'm actually losing traction. In fact, I wish it would kick in sooner in some circumstances. But turns on dirt roads never trigger it unless I'm heavy on the throttle and light on the traction. (The only time it kicks in is when I force it to like slamming the throttle in gravel.)

Have you had your wheel speed sensors checked? There's been some threads I've read where a bad speed sensor was causing the ESP to kick in too early.

BTW...The 235/85/16 tires you are running are almost 10% bigger in circumference than the stock 235/70/16. The 245/75/16 that everyone runs with lifts is only 5% bigger. It could be that the almost 10% difference from stock can't be properly compensated by the ESP system. Just a thought.

I can't see where a locker would not work with the ESP since if both tires are forced to run at the same speed, ESP would never kick in. LSD might be a different story since it will allow the wheels to spin at different speeds. ESP might try to fight the LSD. One thing though...you are complaining about turning on dirt roads triggering the ESP. You wouldn't want to be turning on a road with the locker engaged.

Had the problem with OEM badyears and also with the 32's, so the tire size didn't affect it. I'm not talking about even dirt roads though, just standard pavement pull out into traffic turns. I had the system into the dealer and they tell me the thing is working within spec...

gods I wish they still made simple trucks like the CJ....

tommudd · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:20 am

Not to knock all of the improvements that they have done to 4WDs over the years but I am with you Moose some of these things are great when they work right, but when they start like yours then its a PITA! I still want lock able hubs, no electronic anything, at least we still have an actual lever to lock into 4 low etc., not some switch on the dash! All of the computer generated hill holding, ESP etc. all that stuff will break someday then its mega bucks to repair. Wonder if they came out with stripped down versions if anyone would buy them, I would, give me AC and I can crank my own windows up and down, manual hubs, real lockers, etc Yes an old CJ is looking better all the time, except for the ride! :wink:

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:09 pm

jason thompson wrote:

I dont think that either would realy help
It sounds to me like the ESP does not know that the jeep is turning and trys to fix the fact that in a turn 1 rear wheel must move faster or slower than the other because one is traveling further than the other

A locker will not fix this either ,it is laws of physics (sp?) that force one wheel to move further in that respect faster than the other
Newton knew this way back when and DCX thinks they can change them?

What about an ECM ,computer, from a KJ with out ESP that should fix it
or just figure out where the wheel sensors are and by pass them that way it thinks that every thing is fine and dandy all the time

When a locker is locked, its locked. One wheel will not turn faster than the other. Thats why I believe a locker could help the situation since it would force both rear wheels to turn at the same speed when he gets on the gas. Anytime I give my jeep alot of gas when pulling out, the locker locks. Yes, it is harder on the tires.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:28 pm

Actually "lockers" (lunchbox or true lockers) will still allow the wheels to turn at different rates. A spool will "completely lock" the two axles together all the time. I wonder if you could completely disable the ESP system...ussing 2004 and older replacement parts...there must be some way to do it.

From another source:

Locker: Lockers differ quite a bit from the open carrier and LS units. They instead literially lock both axles together as soon as one axle begins to run slower than the drivetrain. They will unlock and allow either axle to run the same speed or faster than the drivetrain though. Because of this the inside tire n corners always has power while the outside one usually does not. This has a slight tendacy to push the vehicle toward the outside of a curve and some people find the locking and unlocking action to be a nuisance. (See the discussion on spools for more details) This action can also be downright dangerous in some conditions. (More on this below in the section on which options are best suited to particular conditions) Since a locker never allows an axle to turn slower than the drivetrain they will still provide traction to the remaining axle after one breaks. Keep in mind though that any pieces of the axle that remain inside the carrier will still be turning and could further damage other parts.

frank6772 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:34 pm

[quote="scoobybri"]

BTW...The 235/85/16 tires you are running are almost 10% bigger in circumference than the stock 235/70/16. The 245/75/16 that everyone runs with lifts is only 5% bigger. It could be that the almost 10% difference from stock can't be properly compensated by the ESP system. Just a thought.

quote]

Im running a stock 06' with a manual, and it doesnt make a diffrence. ESP is a nanny to keep the driver in check. I cant count how manny times Ive gone over the speed bumps in my apt complex "too fast" and esp tries to slow me down. When I make a sharp turn and put too much gas into it, it will slow me down. Its a whole stability control thing, to keep u fron fliping the truck over. Aparently DCX, nor the government trust our driving an suv, so "nanny ESP" gets put in to keep us all in check. You'll just have to deal with it, or by older.

unixxx · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:52 pm

ARB Air Lockers provide selectable 100% physical locking. This is why you don't activate an ARB when you're on the road. :wink:

DarbyWalters wrote:

Actually "lockers" (lunchbox or true lockers) will still allow the wheels to turn at different rates. A spool will "completely lock" the two axles together all the time. I wonder if you could completely disable the ESP system...ussing 2004 and older replacement parts...there must be some way to do it.

jason thompson · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:06 pm

Jeepjeepster wrote:

jason thompson wrote:

I dont think that either would realy help
It sounds to me like the ESP does not know that the jeep is turning and trys to fix the fact that in a turn 1 rear wheel must move faster or slower than the other because one is traveling further than the other

A locker will not fix this either ,it is laws of physics (sp?) that force one wheel to move further in that respect faster than the other
Newton knew this way back when and DCX thinks they can change them?

What about an ECM ,computer, from a KJ with out ESP that should fix it
or just figure out where the wheel sensors are and by pass them that way it thinks that every thing is fine and dandy all the time

When a locker is locked, its locked. One wheel will not turn faster than the other. Thats why I believe a locker could help the situation since it would force both rear wheels to turn at the same speed when he gets on the gas. Anytime I give my jeep alot of gas when pulling out, the locker locks. Yes, it is harder on the tires.

There are very few things in this world that will completly lock the rear and force the rear tires to turn the same speed
1) spool ,enough said
2) welded spiders ,again enough said
3) ARB ,or other selectable lockers lock up like a spool but unlock when you want

I have an arb in my TJ ,front, and trust me you can hang up turning if it is locked ,if the trail is wet you will go strait even if the wheel is at full turn
I have also seen welded and spooled rears and trust me if you think that a power trax or even a detroit is hard on tires you aint seen nothing
when you have a fully ,no question, locked rear end the tires will chirp around corners leaving marks and all
I hav seen guys turn a TJ full lock on pavement and drive and make all kinds of noise and leave 2 black circles on small ,inside tire, one big ,outside tire,
and doing nothing more than giving it the gas needed to go
The owner of said rig hated the road maners but loved the "go" offroad ,he now has a "lunch box locker" in the rear 35's not getting more that 10-15K sucked

Put in an ARB and keep it locked or weld the spiders that should fix ESP
or just wait until some one "fixes" it

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:18 pm

I did not intend for this to get OT. Everyone has the wrong idea and I am sorry for that. I have a locker in my Jeep and I know how it behaves. When I get on the gas under high torque situations, its LOCKED! There is not question to that. :wink:

Moose has been talking about this issue for awhile now. It seems that the ESP/Traction control is kicking on when he is turning and pulling onto a road. This is the time when alot of torque is on the drivetrain. That was the whole reason I thought a locker would help this problem since MINE is usually locked under these circumstances.

tommudd · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:04 pm

It seems that there should be someway to unhook/disable this thing so that it would not bother him the way it has been. I know Moose has been fighting the "nanny ESP" for quite a while now and can feel his frustration level rising, I know mine would be. So he doesnt sell the KJ and move on someone must know what to do. Im not sure a locker would help though would it?
But if he does give up and get rid of the KJ I call first dibs on some of his parts!! :lol:

moose · **Posted:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:02 pm

Thanks all. If I could get the code out of her, I'd rewrite the software myself. Maybe I'll offer my services to DCX...

I was hoping that a Detroit Locker in the back might solve the problem, but it sounds like it wont make a difference. It was worth a try...

Eddo · **Joined:** Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:01 pm **Posts:** 1214

I've put a power-trax in a manual KJ before and it resulted in problems shifting. The trans didn't like the increased backlash. Send a PM to TheChuckleStart for his opinion, he is the one that had problems with it. Also, I believe Clint mentioned something about it at one time.

A powertax or lunchbox will probably make the ESP go crazy. In a turn only the inside rear wheel is powered, therefore it is more likely to slip and that will trigger the ESP. You actually get more slip with locker in a turn than with and open diff.

A nice LSD like the true-trac would probably be a better option for you because of the manual trans and the ESP. The LSD would limit slip in a turn and hopefully keep the ESP from triggering. Also, it shouldn't increase backlash at all therefore it should be fine with the manual. Plus the ESP with the automatic brake modulation should team up nice with the true-trac.

Eddo · **Joined:** Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:01 pm **Posts:** 1214

Jeepjeepster wrote:

I did not intend for this to get OT. Everyone has the wrong idea and I am sorry for that. I have a locker in my Jeep and I know how it behaves. When I get on the gas under high torque situations, its LOCKED! There is not question to that. :wink:

Moose has been talking about this issue for awhile now. It seems that the ESP/Traction control is kicking on when he is turning and pulling onto a road. This is the time when alot of torque is on the drivetrain. That was the whole reason I thought a locker would help this problem since MINE is usually locked under these circumstances.

You're locker is not locked in a turn unless you really get on the gas and get the wheels to spin, otherwise just the inside tire is powered. Read this for a description of how the no-slip works. See the How it Works section.
http://www.richmondgear.com/0002pdfs/8221001.pdf

In a turn, the outside wheel in effect “accelerates” ahead of the inside wheel to
compensate for the difference in the turning radius distance of the inner versus the
outer wheels. As the outer wheel rotates faster, because it must travel farther than
the inner wheel, it advances the coupler from the driver and relaxes the power
distributed to the outside wheel. As the coupler continues to advance, it ramps the
driver to disengage from the coupler. The synchro ring continues to turn with the
coupler until it is stopped by the active spacer “paddle.” the synchro ring is then
positioned to prevent re-engagement of the driver and coupler until the turn is
complete. The outside wheel in the turn continues to rotate freely with power being
delivered to the inside wheel. When turning concludes, the synchro mechanism is
reset and power is reapplied to both driving wheels. Full wheel differentiation is
thereby provided automatically and identically for right and left turns.

scoobybri · **Posted:** Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:31 am

Before I would give up, I might suggest this...
First, find a place where you can get the ESP to kick in when you don't want it...a place where you can reproduce the results several times under similar throttle position, angle of entry, etc. Then, get someone from LOST with an 05+ Libby, stock or not, and try to reproduce the results in the same place in the same fashion. That way, you are able to see if your ESP is acting the same exact way as another 05+ Libby. Ideally, this second Libby would have the same tire size and lift as yours, but even if it's not the same, you can see if the symptoms are reproducible on a Libby other than your own.

From your description, I'm not convinced that the problem is the ESP programming as much as a problem with the ESP system on your particular Libby. I very rarely have ESP kick in on a dry paved road and never in a way where I would have problems merging in traffic. If the second Libby does not have a problem in the same place as yours, you have something to bring to the dealer.

moose · **Posted:** Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:55 am

scoobybri wrote:

Before I would give up, I might suggest this...
First, find a place where you can get the ESP to kick in when you don't want it...a place where you can reproduce the results several times under similar throttle position, angle of entry, etc. Then, get someone from L.O.S.T. with an 05+ Libby, stock or not, and try to reproduce the results in the same place in the same fashion. That way, you are able to see if your ESP is acting the same exact way as another 05+ Libby. Ideally, this second Libby would have the same tire size and lift as yours, but even if it's not the same, you can see if the symptoms are reproducible on a Libby other than your own.

From your description, I'm not convinced that the problem is the ESP programming as much as a problem with the ESP system on your particular Libby. I very rarely have ESP kick in on a dry paved road and never in a way where I would have problems merging in traffic. If the second Libby does not have a problem in the same place as yours, you have something to bring to the dealer.

I can push the ESP off button and that fixes it (OK, I couldn't do donuts in the snow, but I can turn off my street onto the 4-lane without the dogging). But I can't remember to push the button every time I drive, and if I do, and get into an accident, will the insurance company, or the "other guy's" company, give me crap about disabling safety features? It sux to have such a litigious society...

Eddo · **Joined:** Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:01 pm **Posts:** 1214

moose wrote:

scoobybri wrote:

Before I would give up, I might suggest this...
First, find a place where you can get the ESP to kick in when you don't want it...a place where you can reproduce the results several times under similar throttle position, angle of entry, etc. Then, get someone from L.O.S.T. with an 05+ Libby, stock or not, and try to reproduce the results in the same place in the same fashion. That way, you are able to see if your ESP is acting the same exact way as another 05+ Libby. Ideally, this second Libby would have the same tire size and lift as yours, but even if it's not the same, you can see if the symptoms are reproducible on a Libby other than your own.

From your description, I'm not convinced that the problem is the ESP programming as much as a problem with the ESP system on your particular Libby. I very rarely have ESP kick in on a dry paved road and never in a way where I would have problems merging in traffic. If the second Libby does not have a problem in the same place as yours, you have something to bring to the dealer.

I can push the ESP off button and that fixes it (OK, I couldn't do donuts in the snow, but I can turn off my street onto the 4-lane without the dogging). But I can't remember to push the button every time I drive, and if I do, and get into an accident, will the insurance company, or the "other guy's" company, give me crap about disabling safety features? It sux to have such a litigious society...

I doubt they would even know. They would have to pull the data from the computer and analyzed it, which I don't see happening unless its a really serious accident that included a fatality or they suspect you where driving recklessly. Also, there are lots of KJ and other vehicles on the road with out ESP, so I'm not sure how much of a case they could make.

Either way I think if something serious did happen they are more likely to claim the lift and tires was the cause. Since it is so obvious to see and everyone loves to rag on SUVs for poor handling/braking. Just adding a lift and larger tires is probably asking for a little trouble if they are looking for a reason to deny coverage. In reality if things do get hairy, it probably depends on who has a better lawyer since both area could be consider somewhat gray.

06+ with Locker? Manual?

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