DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

drharv · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:28 am

Thanks R1, that is the only code that is fuel related. I feel a fool because I did not just get it home and do the work myself. I will have this running soon and it will cost anywhere near the dealer quote. I agree with all the advice and suggestions and will update when the CRD is working.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:36 am

drharv wrote:

Thanks R1, that is the only code that is fuel related. I feel a fool because I did not just get it home and do the work myself. I will have this running soon and it will cost anywhere near the dealer quote. I agree with all the advice and suggestions and will update when the CRD is working.

Hang in there my friend. Remember this could have happened in dead of winter and you could be stuck freezing you behind off somewhere. You have lived and learned so it is not a total loss. Keep us posted.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I feel a fool because I did not just get it home and do the work myself.

I wouldn't waste any time blaming yourself for this - it took me 10 warranty visits among 3 dealerships to finally admit to myself that DCX failed to provide the necessary diesel support infrastructure - and that was on oem equipment failure.

Once I jumped that hurdle and started doing my own remedial work, customer service improved, quality of work improved, time to repair dramatically improved and most importantly, the problems were actually getting resolved.

Even if the problem is an air leak on your mod, any competent mechanic should be able to identify that, and would be justified charging a normal labor rate to repair or replace the filter head. If its something else, they should be able to conclusively identify the problem.

drharv · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:47 am

I know I am not the only one who has had this type of poor service and I appreciate your candor. This issue will be resolved and it will be a lesson learned. I am trying to have it released today so I can start implementing the above suggestions.

drharv · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:00 pm

964.00 + towing to get it out of hock and to my garage. I will start with simple stuff like changing the filter back to MOPAR, bleeding the air at the filter head, and any other place that is available. Luckily my diesel guy is a licensed mechanic and his documentation will be valid. I will know in the next few hours if it is as simple as a large volume of air. Is it advisable to crack the line after the pump while purging air, or should I stick with the filter head purge? I know unfiltered diesel is a bad idea but what if I bypass the filter completely as a diagnostic procedure. I know when changing a fuel filter on a TDI you are to prime the filter by filling it with diesel or power service and it is a very similar engine design. What do you guys think?

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:35 pm

Have your mechanic document EVERYTHING he finds. If it does turn out to be just an air leak at the filter head, even if there's no possibility of getting your $964 back from the dealer, you might get some measure of satisfaction from calling the dealer and letting them know you're forwarding all the evidence to DC, the Canadian version of the Better Business Bureau, and whatever other organizations might be appropriate, just to let everyone concerned know they're a bunch of incompetent idiots.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Is it advisable to crack the line after the pump while purging air

No!!! That pump line to the fuel injector rail has dangerously high pressure in it! Up to 24,000 psi. Even a small spray or leak at that pressure could slice through a finger. bone and all or worse and seriously injure you. Even at idle, it can easily have 5000 psi on it.

Let your diesel mechanic do that if its necessary. That's the one downside to common rail pressure.

If you can't get it running by purging air or rebuilding the fuel filter head, bypassing the filter could be done if you're careful and use an inline filter just to see if you have fuel flow to the pump. No need to use unfiltered fuel when there are inline clear filters available for a few dollars.

PS - I would pay with a credit card, not check or cash if you can. You can dispute the charges later if it's proved the dealership blundered around at your expense. The CC company is much better at pulling money back than you can imagine. But keep really good written records, even make a video if you get it running with nothing more than an air leak repair, retmil46's suggestion is excellent.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:01 pm

Might it be wise to purge the hose before the pump though?

With respect to bad fuel...I would not worry about that being the issue unless you were 1) sipping off the bottom of the tank, or 2) had just filled it with like 20 gallons of fuel. If you have driven a couple of hundred miles on this tank before the change to the CAT without fuel issues it is hard to believe they would all of a sudden pop up. Also, did you inspect the MOPAR when you took it out? Was there water?

Good luck and kick *ss!

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Might it be wise to purge the hose before the pump though?

Sure. It's easy to do as well as safe, as both ends are connected via ordinary hose clamps.

It would seem the easiest, quickest way to see if fuel is getting to the low pressure side of the pump is to insert a clear plastic inline fuel filter between the line to the tank and the pump. This would only require removing the input hose to the fuel head, reconnecting it to the input side of the inline filter, and taking the output hose off the fuel head and connecting it to the output side of the inline filter. This would bypass the fuel head and filter in one easy step.

drharv · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:50 pm

All really great ideas. To answer a couple of questions....No it was not a fresh tank of fuel, I did pay with credit card (even went as far as paying over the phone-no signature) and am documenting everything. As far as I know they did not even remove the filter, it is in the exact same position that it was when I installed it. I just bought the alldata service manual and am ready to tackle the no start issue. The tow truck driver dropped it off in the garage about 15 minutes ago.

I hope to have it started without enlisting the diesel guru in body. Wish me luck.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Maybe I will wait a while on the cat conversion

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:01 pm

Why? Mine and most others here are not having a problem when done proper or when no fuel head is AFU. I feel much more secure with the Cat filter and as the two Dodge/CRD/Sprinter techs I use say, "best mod a guy can do to the CRD to keep crap out of the works".

drharv · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:35 pm

vtdog it has nothing to do with the CAT filter. Do the conversion.....

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:16 pm

Wait, now, I agree a good filter is important.

However...

I am 90% sure what happened is an air leak. And one possible reason is a manufacturing error on the aftermarket piece. There are a lot of other possibilities for error on the install, but you have to keep an open mind. If the aftermarket fitting is goofy, you will all want to know. Pulled a piece of gasket through? Shavings? Incompletely drilled holes? Things can happen, it is made by hand.

But I bet it is just an installation error. And the fact that the dealer tech hasn't touched the filter continues to impress me with his complete lack of competence.

Seriously, I am soooo sure it is an air leak/locked line.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:15 pm

No offense to fellow shade tree mechanics but I bet if we could ever figure out the bottom line on the air thing it would come down to what I learned on the farm from my daddy. "If tight is good then Godawful tight is better." If I had $10 for the number of times, as a farm kid working weekends at the local one man Grange feed store and gas station, I had to fix some locals leaky spin on filter and the first step was to drive a big screwdriver through it to use as a wrench because it was to tight and the seal was warped I could have bought some rangy Mexican cows and be competing with JR Simplot’s fortune.

There are few here who it seems to me that had the air issue before either a dealer service of the fuel filter or a self service of it. With the plastic puck on the head and the difficulty in reaching the filter there are just an awful lot of ways for us or the dealer to screw up. If you over tighten Greg's adapter a 1/4 turn you could warp something. If you over tighten the filter, MOPAR or CAT, the same thing could happen or you could warp the seals between the head and the filter. Then of course there are the fuel lines. If you take those loose during the filter change or the CAT mod once again you have a potential problem. It takes very little to let in air but a lot more to let out fuel.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:23 pm

I always use hose clamps when changing fuel filters (MB, VW, CRD) to prevent excessive air in lines or fuel spills, never had an air problem in all those changes.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:59 pm

I've been reading in the service manual about priming the fuel system and found some info I hope will help. To purge air out of the high pressure pump the service manual recommends cranking for not more than ten seconds at a time. In part this is to protect the starter, but I think there is another reason. Someone had previously posted about the function of the cascade pressure relief valve that is part of the high pressure pump. I found this info in my manual as well. The cascade valve has three stages. The first stage returns a lot of the fuel to the tank and this helps to purge air out of the pump. This first stage is only active during initial cranking. If you crank for longer periods, the pressure can build enough that stage two of the cascade valve is reached. Stage two returns much less (maybe none) fuel to the tank and thus does little to vent the air. Stage three again sends much fuel to the tank, but I'm betting the pressure doesn't build enough to hit stage three until the engine starts. Opening the high pressure lines is specifically not recommended for reasons mentioned earlier. (It is dangerous.)

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:57 pm

there is no way that H2O would throw a POO93. if there was water in the fuel there would still be pressure post injection pump only the pressure would be water not fuel. pure water does not have an easy time passing through the microscopic holes in the injectors but it will pass eventually. To prime the pump by a $7 outboard motor priming bulb from wallmart, add a $2 inline filter and bypass the filter head. have someone crank the engine while you squeeze the bulb. Dollars to doughnuts it starts in 30 seconds.

CHessMaster · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:17 am

Check fuse #26 in the underhood fuse block (25 amp. labeled "injectors") and see if it's blown. If it is, the harness may be shorted behind the filter housing.

Good luck.

drharv · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:20 am

Still no start. We purged the air from the system and my diesel mechanic cracked the high pressure lines to reveal no significant pressure or air in that side of the system. Due to the fact that you need a CAN1 bus code reader we could not pull the codes. The codes that the dealer pulled we only large leak detected. Now I have another friend who has the most up-to-date software who will come and pull the codes from the HEEP. Frustration is on the menu this father's day. We believe that the injection is being told not to allowed to create high pressure. Either it is the pump itself, the cascade valve not returning the air to the tank, or an electronic issue. What is frustrating is that I do not have a manual except the ALLDATADIY one. It is not very good.

We will be bypassing the filter head (no air in the low side of the pump) and increasing the pressure with an addition fuel pump to overcome the first and second stages of the cascade valve. I appreciate the info and we will be trying the bypass and pump method. Pulling the DTCs and figuring out where the fuel cut off solenoid is, what the feedback for the fuel quantity solenoid, and the feedback for the fuel pressure solenoid. My TDI guru is betting on an electrical cause if there isn't a big air bubble or debris (lock tight) in the pump. It is definitely not water related and that was DC's claim.

Does anyone have a link to a real electronic service manual with all of the tests for the fuel system. I hope there is an electronic version or I will get one from a dealer tomorrow. I will keep you posted on the pump air/debris purge method.

Since our injection pump has a simple gear driven low side---->3 stage cascade valve (lubrication and fuel/air return-increase pressure to provide fuel to 3 piston pump-and overflow returning unused fuel to tank)----->high pressure holy cow; if there is a blockage in the gear set (air cavitation allowing only partial pressures then the high side will never get up to pressure. That said there is a solenoid on the pump (fuel quantity solenoid) that we do not know how it affects the prodeedings. We read the purge procedure of no more than 10 seconds cranking and still no go. We worked for about 2-3 hours and nobody paid us $100+ an hour to learn!!! ( My bill was for 6 hours of labour at over $100 per....the tech admitted he had never worked on the CRD)

DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

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