DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:47 am

It says that the "fuel quanity solenoid (on the pump) is inactive for the first thirty seconds to allow maximum pressure in the rail during startup".
There's a fuel rail solenoid and fuel rail pressure sensor. It says the the solenoid must be replaced if removed because of the way it is sealed. (don't take it off) The pressure solenoid is closed when inactive (off) and opens in varying amounts to regulate pressure. The current from the ECM varies to regulate fuel pressure. I would suspect you would see a varying amount of voltage on it to raise of lower the pressure. No test measurements are given. It says when it's INACTIVE(off) it bypasses no fuel" and I assume that would be max pressure :lol:

Hope ths helps.
I've got a CD from a guy in Canada but it's not as good as the Bentley series paper bookd that are for VW's.

Joe

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If you're buying a manual for troubleshooting, I would suggest looking for the diagnostic manuals rather than the FSM. Most of the non Jeep manuals have always had excellent diagnostic checks, ohm reading ranges, circuit checks, but not the Chrysler manuals. They put most of that info in their diagnostic manuals. I would suggest getting those for this situation.

If you've never had any issue like this on your CRD until you changed the fuel head filter, it would seem that the problem is likely some kind of freaky air lock situation, or a glitch in the PCM to pressure regulator circuit. I recently had the overhead lights freak out and not shut off when the doors were shut - it turned out that the EVIC has a self diagnostic check, which when run resets the computer and prints out the software and self check results - it also reset the logic and the lights on problem cleared instantly. Might be worth disconnecting the battery overnight just as backup to clear the volatile PCM program storage.

I am discounting anything the dealership might have done ignorantly with the DRB3 scan tool, which has considerable control over the Jeep systems, including deactivating individual injectors, and it looks as if something triggered this kind of air lock/logic glitch situation in the pump. It looks as if you need the diag manuals badly at this point as well as a scan tool to read the codes - you're flying blind until you get at least a scan tool. Also be aware that some scan tools cannot read all of the codes. My Equus 3130 is very good, but could not read the P0093 large air leak - why I don't know, but it could read many other fault codes and clear them, but not the P0093. That took about a month of driving after I replaced the leaky fuel heat to clear on its own. I had to use the key on off trick to read the Large Leak P0093. I've seen some here report that the odo OBD reader doesn't work on their 06 CRD's.

If you can't find the diag manuals online, try here for a starting point:

techauthority.daimlerchrysler.com

That's the source for the factory manuals.

drharv · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:12 pm

Thanks Joe, the solenoid on the pump is inactive to pressurize the rail.....good so if it fails the rail will pressurize. The other sensors just maintain the appropriate pressure in the rail. I am still hoping for a giant burp in the high side when we put a pressure pump bypassing the filter housing. AND or having a more definitive code read.

I am not looking forward to yanking the pump and or repairing it.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

There is a test to check the fuel pump in the service manual. You need a vacuum gauge and an adapter to use the bleed valve on the fuel head to measure vacuum while cranking. I'll post the steps here. Note that they include disconnecting the camshaft(not crankshaft) sensor to prevent the engine from starting while performing this test.

From the FSM section 14.44 for an 05 CRD

1. Disconnect the camshaft position sensor to prevent the vehicle from starting while testing
(my note - its located on the back top of the passenger side of the engine next to the firewall.)
2. Remove the bleeder screw on the fuel head and install adapter 9663 to the fuel head
my note (Miller Special tool adapter number - you can use anything that will fit your vacuum gauge to the bleeder port without leaking)
3. Connect vacuum/pressure gauge 6828 to adapter 9663 (again all Miller special tool part numbers)
4. Reprime the fuel system to remove all air.
5. Restrict the inlet side of the fuel system by clamping the inlet hose close to the fuel filter.
6. Crank the engine 3-4 times in 15 second intervals while monitoring the the gauge

RESULTS:

The supply pump should draw at least 3 inches of vacuum (max up to 20 inches) - if the supply pump was unable to draw 3 inches of vacuum, replace the pump. (My Caveat - if there is a air leak anywhere in the fuel head or inlet hose, you wont' be able to pull any vacuum. Test is only good if the head is sealed correctly and you completely block the fuel inlet hose completely)

7. If the pump was able to reach 3 inches of vacuum continue with this test.
8. Reconnect the camshaft position sensor
9. Remove the clamping pliers from the fuel inlet hose
10. Pump the hand primer until 10 psi is reached on the vacuum/pressure gauge
11. Will the engine start?
12. If the engine starts, refer to section 14, fuel system diagnosis and testing
13. If you were able to obtain 10 psi with the hand primer, refer to the "Crank - No Start Chart" in the diagnostics manual.

If you can connect a combo vacuum/pressure gauge to the line to the low pressure side of the fuel pump, you should be able to test at least vacuum draw of minimum required 3 inches of vacuum.

Good luck

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:34 pm

drharv wrote:

Thanks Joe, the solenoid on the pump is inactive to pressurize the rail.....good so if it fails the rail will pressurize. The other sensors just maintain the appropriate pressure in the rail. I am still hoping for a giant burp in the high side when we put a pressure pump bypassing the filter housing. AND or having a more definitive code read.

I am not looking forward to yanking the pump and or repairing it.

If that fuel soleniod fails, usually fails in the closed position cutting fuel between the pump and injectors. Check back through the forums, several have reported this failure. I doubt you will find any air pockets between the pump and injectors unless this system was run dry (which will likely trash your pump and/or injectors).

If this problem all started when the CAT filter was installed, you likely are sucking air (in massive quantities) somewhere in the filter head. Try to pressureize the system with the hand primer and look for leaks. Mine started pissing fuel through the fuel heater connection after the dealer changed my fuel filter. This filter hardware is junk, the fuel lines are also junk. I would start the basics like searching for suction leaks before pulling the pump. Suction leaks are very evasive and almost impossible to find after lines are disturbed.

drharv · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:06 pm

Finally pulled the left over codes from all the f'ing around and got the expected..large leak, fuel pressure rail low, etc. So I buttoned everything back to stock, cleared the codes, cranked it over, and......NO DTCs. None.Nada.Zip.

AND still no start. So questions:
1) Will the solenoid on the pump throw a code if it is pooched?
2) I think we can rule out a cam or crank sensor, can't we?
3) ECU is normal so that is out.
4) The feedback loops seem to be fine, unless they need a running engine to trip a DTC. Any guesses?

Wow, I hoped there would be a consistent code to narrow the diagnostic tests to be done.

I gathered lots of info today and as far as I can tell the liberty has a similar fuel injection pump to a new Chev Duramax (Bosch CP3 http://www.turbodieselregister.com/foru ... taway.html ), they have had failures of the shaft that drives the suction pump (but usually spectacular- noise, smoke, more noise and no start), they are a witch to remove with or without special tools, not really sensitive (can ingest some stuff before damage) and only a couple of places in Canada can test or repair them. All sounds great doesn't it? The testing procedure does involve applying input pressures in the range of 80 - 100 psi while spinning them and that is what we are going to try tonight. Hopefully there is an air blockage in the pump. By looking at the cut-away of the pump, a large piece of debris would most likely get squashed in the low pressure gear pump. Who knows.

Mikey[url][/url][url][/url]

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:12 pm

You're not that far from Spokane would you like me to see if one of the pump places here can work on the pump?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:36 pm

drharv wrote:

Finally pulled the left over codes from all the f'ing around and got the expected..large leak, fuel pressure rail low, etc. So I buttoned everything back to stock, cleared the codes, cranked it over, and......NO DTCs. None.Nada.Zip.

AND still no start. So questions:
1) Will the solenoid on the pump throw a code if it is pooched?

What happens when you use the hand primer? With the key "off", will it build & hold pressure between the filter and the pump without leaking off within a few seconds?

On the solenoid question: yes, you should get low pressure codes if the fuel solenoid sticks closed. This will starve the common rail for fuel which is where the pressure sensor is located. Also, on a common rail system, there should be a second solenoid on the common rail fuel return line (to the tank) that creates backpressure in the rail. If this sticks open, you won't get enough pressure (24K psi) to operate the injectors.

Gut hunch, still think you are sucking air from a fuel leak or have a pinched/collapsed fuel line....Would start inspecting every fuel line & connection between the pump backwards to the tank before messing with the pump.

curtis · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:57 am

I had trouble when my 06 Crd just shut -off and wouldn't restart. I tryed bleeding air, Priming the pump, ect. And nothing seemed to help. So I had it towed into the dealer so they could figure it out.
It turned out that the injector fuse (under the hood in the fuse panel) was blown. They popped in a new 30 amp fuse and it started right up and ran perfect. I would check your fuses just in case.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:33 am

Is there any chance that the hoses on the fuel filter are swapped? The service manual says that will cause a no start condition. I know it is stupid simple, but I thought it worth mentioning. Sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees and all that.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

Goglio704 wrote:

Is there any chance that the hoses on the fuel filter are swapped? The service manual says that will cause a no start condition. I know it is stupid simple, but I thought it worth mentioning. Sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees and all that.

He drove it a ways before this happen.

Greg

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:02 am

Goglio704 wrote:

Is there any chance that the hoses on the fuel filter are swapped? The service manual says that will cause a no start condition. I know it is stupid simple, but I thought it worth mentioning. Sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees and all that.

I did mention that to him in a PM I sent him or an earlier post, not sure which. The reason being that I had a guy do that once here at a GTG and none of us noticed him doing it, and when he went for a test drive he got stranded down the road a couple miles and had to call for help. The guy that went to get him spotted the problem and had him running in short order. Talk about a taking a ribbing, he did for sure.

drharv · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:16 am

We have exhausted all options (except the return line solenoid valve that was mentioned....still waiting for my manual to determine if this common rail design has one) except yanking the pump. There was no air in the system, purged via external electric fuel pump, no codes that are not surprising (large leak and rail pressure low) we got lots of volume into the rail but no pressure was built. There is something causing the "high side" of the injector pump not build pressure. The possibilities are as follows:

1) Debris (locktite) causing a valve (cascade overflow valve) to malfunction and not allow pressure to be built in the three piston radial pump high side

2) Solenoid valve is operating incorrectly. As per a diesel testing facility, "the solenoid valve operates like a high frequency valve on a gas engine (not the same function but similar action) it opens and closes at a high rate dependent upon the ECU's commands". If it fails entirely it can cause a no start, as previously posted by another member, and is difficult to diagnose without a test "bench". We pulled it out and it opened and closed in very rapid succession (vibrated) when the engine was cranked - what does that prove....absolutely nothing. I thought about just replacing it but it costs $465 and the testing of the whole pump will be conclusive and less cash.

3) Elusive return line solenoid staying open and not allowing pressure to build. I would love this to be the case!

4) Pump shaft failure (common in Duramax) but very unlikely

5) Hung up radial piston(s), broken return spring/broken piston/seal damage, in the chamber not allowing pressure to build. The high pressure piston ride on a tri-lobed cam and are forced to the periphery with every revolution of the shaft, the are returned to the central shaft via a spring.

6) Who the eff knows?!!!

I really appreciate all of the very insightful replies to this thread, they have help tremendously. I will be removing the injection pump today/tomorrow (late nights make for a weary day at the office) and finding the nearest injection place with the facilities to test a common rail high pressure pump. From what I gather there are only a couple of places in Canad that have invested in the equipment to test these pumps. The local diesel injection service I spoke with commented that most of the manufacturers are heading to CRI but since most pumps/systems are under warranty any failures result in the dealer just remove/replace the unit instead of having it tested and repaired.

Have a great day and I will let you awesome folks know what is up when the next step happens. BTW I will post some pics of the timing belt/pulleys/injection pump removal. HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!

MIke

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:49 am

Did you check the fuse suggested above?

Dang, I was SURE it was an air-leak. Still betting on a plugged line or chunk-o-goo into the pump.

drharv · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:56 am

Yeah there is probably goo in the pump. I am on the phone with a diesel injection shop and they do not even know if they can test the pump.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:03 am

I made a few calls for you and there is no CRD pump service in Spokane but I did get routed to Power Distributing in Seattle and talked to Liberty CRD owner Greg who was very helpful and had recently completed the BOSCH Common Rail School. He told me that there is no BOSCH authorized test facitlity because BOSCH has no service concept in place. He did tell me that he can't imagine any way that you might have killed the pump. He did tell me that there is a device on the pump that is held on by three screws called an MPROP that controls the high pressure. He is not sure that it is servicable but that it could concievably catch trash and plug up making the system fail to achieve high pressure. He wasn't sure if it was available seperately or if you could push air or fuel back through it to flush it out. He also gave me the name and number of a fellow in Lewiston, ID who has set up his own test fixture at his home shop to effectively test Common Rail Pumps. I will PM that contact information to you.

I encouraged Greg to join LOST!

drharv · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:12 am

COWCATCHER!
Thanks a ton...I have found the same answer on this end. It is so new that there are no testing "tools- parameters, drives, software" for this pump yet. The MPROP (whatever that stands for) sounds like what Bernie (TDI guru) suspected. "There is a walve dat iz not allowing prezzer to build yah, und letting too mooch diezel back to zee tank"

WTF is an MPROP, I wonder if this is the cascade control valve that is so mysterious.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:57 pm

drharv wrote:

WTF is an MPROP, I wonder if this is the cascade control valve that is so mysterious.

The MPROP is the inlet metering valve (Magnetic Proportioning) of the High Pressure injection pump.

drharv · **Posted:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:48 pm

(this is being posted by mrsdrharv as he's gotten to the point that he's going to stick a fork in someone's neck if he doesn't take a break from this FUBAR situation - humor me as all I learned about CRDs has happened in the last day)

So, Mikey spoke with cowcatcher's guru - the CRD guy in Lewiston I think - who, like EVERY single other crd guy we've spoken to is 99% certain the pump has not failed - he says he's only ever heard of one failing, EVER - and that was one so modded-out that it was nuts - a race-souped truck. I tracked down the Sprinter shop closest to us and bent the ear of their guy today who told me flat out he's not seen a single pump fail, either in a Sprinter or a CRD.

That said, the dude from Lewiston says he strongly suspects its the pressure control valve at the rear of the rail that has failed. He gave a couple of tests to check its function - one I can't do ('cause I'm a girrrrrrl LOL) and the other that I tried the second Mikey left the house with our daughter to decompress. The one I tried was to put the key in the start position and then hop under the hood and listen/feel for the valve (which to me looks like a solenoid, but wtf do I know) to be buzzing/vibrating like the solenoid on the back of the injector pump. Per guru, it should have been humming and I should have been able to feel it vibrate, like the one on the pump. It wasn't.

I also noticed under there that the wiring harness is all monkey-f'd closed - taped up w/ electrical tape and such - it's obviously been opened at some point. Jiggled the wires (GENTLY!, I promise) that connect to the suspect pressure control valve (no dice, but figured I'd try). At this point, mrsdrharv is hoping that either this part has pooped out or that the wiring to it is abraded or something equally fixable. Mikey is going to do the other test suggested (cranking it with the fuel return line open - apparently if fuel comes out of this that means the valve is hooped) and also check the wire going to the valve to make sure it is getting power.

So - best hope at this point is that it's a wire that's shot (nice, cheap repair) or the pressure control valve (roughly $400 bucks - imminently do-able). That said, I also got on the horn and pestered the living crap out of a guy we know and somehow managed to irritate him into finding a replacement pump (just in case we need it) for $2150CDN, shipped to my door. Imagine what I could have arranged if I'd been able to use the boobies to sway things in my favour instead of working over the phone!! LOL.

Another little update - I spoke with a consumer protection lawyer today who is right riled at the $1000 we paid to get the heep out of the dealer's shop, and is willing to help me recover that at minimal costs. I also somehow managed to get a different Dodge dealer to get onboard with our case who is eager to help us prove to DC that the filter was not the issue, and will go to bat with the donkey DSM who has voided our warranty. In all honesty, that one's a long shot, but we'll take what we can get. We'll fight that battle (tooth and nail, 'cause I'm not only a girl, but also a very loud witch if I need to be) once my jeeplet is back on the road.

Ramble - ramble .... Last thing: anyone have any experience with this part, suggestions, hints, dastardly voodoo charms to send to the dealer.... I know you guys have all been a HUGE help to Mikey on this, and if you have anything else to add to the pile, feel free!!

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Wow... sounds like Mikey is a lucky guy :wink:

Do you guys have documentation from the craptastic dealer as to what their tech did, in writing? If not, you might want to start the ball rolling by having your lawyer send a letter asking for such documentation, as well as the basis they used for determining to void your warranty (in writing). I would also ask for copies of all written documentation from the dealer pertaining to your vehicle.

I wouldn't be bashful about telling them you intend to litigate if necessary. I would not, however, tell them you have checked with another dealer and their techs disagree (at least not tell them the name of said dealer).

DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

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