'Bout Septober\Octember or so, somebody on here had bought two extra TCM's, trying to outfox MrMoservice and the F31\37 fiasco - ennybody remember who that was? I'm needing to purchase one (or maybe both) for some intense R&D with the 545RFE and the 68RFE from the Dodge camp - also need a transmission wiring harness, if anybody runs across one in a local boneyard - it will be part of the main ECM harness, which will need be pulled from the engine bay (remember the SEGR wiring foto shoot).

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

...and the "quest" begins...now to collect the supplies needed for the journey...

_________________
Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport
Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph

Would said quest give me the oppotunity to shift my transmission to, say, 2nd OD when I push a button?

That would be worth money to me!

_________________
L.O.S.T forever!
Silver 2002 Skoda Fabia TDI, 235,000km
Former car: Jeep KJ 2003 CRD

DIESEL - saving millions of liters of petrol every day!

Hmmm, the words "manual gear selection" come to mind....

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Powertrain Control Solutions offers a totaly tuneable generic TCU, has a harness for the 545RFE - has instructions with examples so you can build a program for totally manual control, or let the TCM do the chores, or any combination in between, your choice, you build the program and download it into the TCU - you buy the package, you enjoy - or suffer - the consequences.

What I'm looking into is that Dodge and Jeep use the similar in-house TCM since '98, has been external unit separate to the ECM for some models, incl Cherokee and other Jeep models, Dakota, Durango, Ram1500, and Ram Cummins - these are not in any way similar to the PCS TCU, but do offer more versions of program control than just the KJ\Bosch specimen - the EFI PCM incorporates the 545 routines - some are on the CAN and SKI\PCI busses, some are not.

I have the '07 Cummins 68RFE trans, TCM and harness, just need to pick up the KJ version, and one each of the earlier versions, and a Cherokee ECM from a 4.0L unit that had the HD Multi Speed Transmission for use as the controlling interface - I'll just set up the analog, resistive, and frequency inputs required to convince the ECM and TCM that they're once again trippin', with AE set up to monitor the chit-chat amongst the blinken-lights und whirren-clicken mit spitzen-sparken in Dr Frankenstein's lab - that's Frawnken-shteen, people - get it right

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Need a cherokee PCM for an AW4?

And please elaborate a little more on how you plan to use a cherokee PCM, because I dont think it will work, I think you would need a newer TJ PCM, if I understand how you plan to do this.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

Yep, I've checked out the PCS website before. They have something of a user's forum on there. Someone actually asked them a couple years back specifically about using their TCM to replace the factory unit in a CRD. Don't remember the reasons they gave, but they pretty much shot that idea down. I remember having the feeling that PCS shot it down mainly because it wasn't a "plugnplay" type solution, would actually involve some work.

Hey gmctd, why not touch base with Ron at Suncoast? Word is he has some ideas along the lines of 68RE/545RFE "cross-pollination" so to speak.
He might be able to give you some pointers on the electronics/software setup as well. Heck, he may even have flutzed with one of these PCS units before just to see if it was worth his time selling/using them.

Hmmm, while it might be a tough time rigging one of these up on the CRD, it certainly gives me ideas on that old '87 MB. Old style slushbox 4 speed auto, non-lockup TC, 1:1 in 4th, vacuum/pressure/mechanical control, 2.65 rear end, turns nearly 3 grand at 70 mph - and the sucker will still knock down better than 30 MPG. More than one time I've wondered what it could do with even a lockup TC, or a 5 speed auto with lockup and a 0.8 overdrive.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

An early GM 700R4 would go nice in that MB - GM used it behind the 6.2L in the '80's 1500 and 2500 trucks - some of those 1500 SWB's are still on the road, kickin' back 25-30mpg - they even brought it forward to the 1500 6.5TD engines as the 4L60E, then discontinued it for '95 - anyway, it uses the big D4-type lockup convertor setup for Diesel service - the case is the hd 4x4 case for the extra strength - standard Chev bolt-pattern - ratios are 3.06-1st - 1.63-2nd - 1.0-3rd - 0.75-4th - full hydraulic shifting with electric TCC permissive, hooked to your brake switch for release at stop - the TCC engages automatically if the switch is closed.

How to use it?

I cut two adaptors out of a plate of 6066-T6 3/4" aluminum scrap with a Craftsman jigsaw, one full-circle to attach an aluminum GM V8 to a Porsche 914-6 transaxle, the other half-circle to put an aluminum GM V8 in a Chevy Vega wagon with T350, then 700R4 trans - the V8 did not use the traditional Chev pattern - measured the pilot-shaft diameter of the trans, drilled a matching hole in the center of the plate, laid the trans nose-down on the plate, pilot shaft thru the hole - moved the trans to the limit in 6 directions, marking the limits, then centered the trans between the limits - this because the input shaft has only the one bushing in the trans, using the pilot bearing inside the t\c both as a bearing and for centering - marked the bellhousing shape, bolt and locating-pilot dowels pattern - clamped the bellhousing to the plate, drilled the bolt-holes thru the bellhousing holes using a cheap Craftsman drill press with a clamped-on 1/2" Craftsman drill motor - bolted the trans to the plate, counter-drilled the two pilot dowel bores - removed that trans - measured the pilot-shaft diameter of the second trans, counter-drilled the original hole to match, laid the second trans on the plate, aligning the pilot dowels for square, followed the same procedure as with the first - removed the trans - now I had a plate drilled to match the engine block of choice and the trans of choice - counter-traced the outer bellhousing pattern 1" inside the line (you can add more or less, depending on the t\c-starter ring interference) - counter-sunk the holes for the block bolt-pattern, to use standard counter-sunk allen-head bolts - tapped the holes for the transmission bolts- cut along the outer line to clear the scrap, then cut along the inner line to separate the adaptor - I left the edges with the jigsaw marks to indicate the true origin of the adaptor

BTW - up to a few years ago, when I lost track, you could see my '75 VW Scirocco with the mid-engine V8\Porsche transaxle in various autoshows, finished out with BMW wheels and interior, displayed by the boneyard owner to whom I traded for an '87 Starion, in which I installed a GM 3.8L Grand National turbo-charged V6, but that's another tale.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

so I have an AW4 00 XJ pcm.......here, but I really dont think thats what you'll need.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

Sam, I need the ECM from a Cherokee\equiv that had the optional 45RFE trans - those vehicles will have had the separate TCM and harness, so the ECM will have been conversant with the TCM - and the TCM and harness would be required, also - voltage and resistive input sensors are easily duplicated, switches and frequency sources are easy, output control\feedback is easily duplicated with surplus-cheap adjustable time-delay relays, etc - I can kludge-up a test set that will totally convince the ECM and TCM that they are in a running vehicle, with varying loading at varying speeds with varying demand, just as if it was from a real nut behind the wheel.

BTW, folks - I'm not asking for donations, here - locate it, name a price, and sheckels will cross palms upon agreement.

The main differences in the 545RFE and the 68RFE, other than the altered planetary ratios to achieve the 6 speeds, is the increased shaft diameters, the number of clutches in each drum, the number of planet-gears in each planetary set in the 68 - everything else is same - the 68 TCC is 13" dia vs 11"dia for the 545, much huger and deeper, as the Cummins uses a deeply-recessed flexplate for their convertors - thus, there is no real estate in the KJ floorpan for the large 68 bellhousing - other than bigger is better, the really main difference is the firmware in the TCM - altered pressures, altered clutch-apply times and volumes, shift vs load patterns in selectable normal and tow mode, TCC lockup function for the Jake Brake - you name it, they got it, we didn't - who knew?

Could pull the guts from the 68 and install them in the 545 to get 6 speeds, but, due to shaft diameter increases, would require massive work in the TCC, massive work in the mini-241 transfer case (or use the 241-242 from the big Dodges, all new yokes\driveshafts - TCM firmware is the big holdup, unless someone has broken the code - you'd just have a Godzilla trans with a Gecko personality.

The HDMST - heavy duty multi speed transmission, 4, 5, and 6speed = 45, 545, 68 - has been a top-option upgrade, and standard equipment, in several Jeep and Dodge and Chrysler lines since '98 - those early versions all required external TCM, interfaced to the Mitsubishi-based ECM - later version control was incorporated in the Mistubishi-based PCM, losing the external TCM - the KJ CRD has a Bosch ECM, requiring the external TCM - the trans hardware is similar, with TCM firmware allowing 4 or 5 speeds in the early versions, or 6 speeds in the 68 version, but the Mitsu or Bosch interface is the as-yet unscalable wall.

TCM and ECM connection is WYSIWYG, just like connecting your keyboard, monitor, printer, and internet link to the PC - easy to connect, easy to trace, fairly easy to diagnose - what you don't see is all the intercommunication over several different busses to and from those user-friendly devices, not even easy to interpret and diagnose, even with a schematic - same with the six wires in the harness for the vehicle intra-net - CAN, SCI\K, PCI - ECM converses with the TCM on the SCI\K and PCI buss links, which is a problem at incidence of upgrade, and is the problem with improving KJ response.

So, I'm wanting to look at the various version(s) to get a sense of direction(s) - may require the PCS solution, but I need a better understanding of the V\T clutch-apply schemes with respect to torque management request - and lots of other stuff, incl what can I live without when transplanting the '07 68RFE into my NOBD '96 Dodge CTD truck

BTW - that '07 68RFE trans currently resides on the floor in my den - it's shiny new clean, and so mechanically and esthetically purty, I might not even mind if the transplant problems are unsurmountable, and I just use it for conversation piece, placed under a glass-top coffee table..................

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

The XJ never used the 45RFE.

Additionally the ZJ never used the 45RFE, however did use the 42/44/46RE and the 46RH.

You should look at the WJ for the 45 and 545.

Also, since the cherokee uses a CCD bus I think you will find it much easyer to use ZJ components that use the PCI bus. I've been looking into the XJ CCD bus and its a problem for compatiblity with the PCI bus components.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

Ok - need to research that a little more - and BTW - I wasn't ignoring your earlier question - being dyslexic, it takes so long to compose a post and edit it so that what's on the page accurately reflects what's in my mind, that I get behind in the post heirarchy - anyway, that CCD system may be what's needed for my transplant, being less dependent on the highly-involved CAN stuff

The KJ CRD has a Front Module, which is a remote data acquisiton unit, picks off some of the engine sensors, passing that data to the ECM and TCM via the intranet - Dodge has a FIPM, fully integrated power module, which is the engine bay power center with an attitude - it is now a PCM, taking the place of the Front Module and others - a traffic cop deciding amongst itself who gets power and who doesn't, and when, and arbiting comm's over the various busses, and distributing the various sensor outputs first-come, first-serve - involved in managing the new electronic turbo, even monitoring shaft rpm - does the Jake Brake, TCC lockup, emissions control, etc.

Just exactly what Kalifornia ordered - a vehicle that will not only spank the owner severely via his wallet, but will also rat him out to the authorities on his every transgression - I'm reminded of Edward G. Robinson's line to Charlton Heston in Soylent Green - how have we come to this?

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Having a hard time seeing anywhere where the CCD bus would offer an advantage over the PCI, though it mostly depends on which information is distributed via the PCI bus.

The only way the CCD bus might be a better option is if you cannot cull enough information from the PCI bus to make everything work as is. running a seperate CCD bus with inputs from all the various sensors its associated PCM might work.

Though we could be grasping at straws here with all of this, I think there are many more complications trying to rig up the MUCH older CCD bus instead of messing around with the new PCI.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

Ok - went back as far as I could ca 2000 - looks like any of the HDMST's are gonna be on the SCI\PCI busses, as they are strictly full electronic control, unlike the A500 series, which were hydraulic with electric governor, TCC and O\D - so it will take a KJ ECM with 2.5CRD or WJ gasser (patooie!) PCM, altho they did have a 5cyl turbo Diesel available

Had the amst's been available on the CCD systems, possiblilty existed that the TCM was much more autonomous, and much more workable, but, noooooooo....................

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Ya, by 2000 the CCD bus was a 12 year old setup, just couldn't keep up with the data rate needed.

Hence the WJ(99+) and KJ(02+) switched to the PCI, the CCD saw its death knell after 01.

I am not sure yet, but at some point the TJ PCM had to switch the the PCI bus, and I'm not sure when that changover occured.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

Either that, or something along the line of a 518 is what I'm initially looking at. PATC website actually has an extensive writeup on replacing a 727 with a 518 and how to configure it for auto operation without any electronics involved. As simple as possible is what I'm looking at.

Some tranny websites have actually offered a kit for swapping in a 518 in place of a 545RFE for some applications.

Inline six in that MB is rated 145 HP at 4800 rpm and 200 ftlbs at 2400 rpm from the factory. I'd say a 700R4/4L60E/518 ought to be plenty stout with an appropriate TC.

Gents on one MB forum didn't want to really discuss it - said doing a tranny swap was too hard, they'd rather try swapping rear diff gears. One of them did give me an option to look at - said from what he remembered, an MB 722.5 tranny was the earliest version behind one of their diesels with 5 speed and a lockup converter.

As far as swapping rear diff gears in the beast - it already has 2.65's, how much bloody lower do they think they can go?

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Recently I went to the trouble to take a ZJ mintrip computer out of a 96-98 ZJ, and modify it to work in the XJ.

Both the ZJ and the XJ trip computer work exactly the same, with all the same functions, and are nearly identical. They both use the CCD bus for all the trip functions. The difference is that the XJ trip computer has a separate twisted pair for the outside temp sensor display, the ZJ does not. The ZJ BCM takes the temp sensor and broadcasts that on the CCD bus.

The ZJ has a BCM, the XJ does not.

Hence by taking the ZJ BCM, connecting it to power, ground, CCD bus, and temp sensor I now have a temp sensor signal packet being broadcast on the XJ CCD bus, then when you connect the ZJ bcm it listens for all the packets it needs for the trip functions, and it is able to pull the packet for the outside temp sensor.....viola!


I've also been looking heavily into what its going to take to interface a KJ CRD engine into a XJ body, the PCI to CCD bus thing is a problem. I would suspect it is more likely that having PCI TCMs and such would make things easyer for upgrading, if for some reason you cannot tie everything into the single PCI bus then simply running a second bus PCI line for the TCM that does not interface with the vehicles original PCI bus.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

Up thru '86 the 700R4 was fully hydraulic, retmil46 - '87^ TCC control was handled by the ECM - '91^ ECM handled some of the shifting chores - '94 ECM\PCM handled full shifting chores - in each case, TCC permissive was handled by the brake switch

Similar with the A518\618, but stayed hydraulic thru '02 - '88-'97 had hydraulic TCC, shift, electric TCC permissive and o\d - '98-'02 had hyd shift, elect TCC permissive, o\d, and governor - '03^ had more ECM supervision

In each case in GM and DCJ systems, final TCC permissive is handled by the brake switch, so you can panic-stab the brakes without killing the engine - so you do have multiple-choice for a 3-sp with TCC and o\d

The MB 6 and the GM V8 both have almost identical power ratings, so the 700R4 should be no problem, once you make the adaptor and add the GM yoke to the MB driveshaft.
The Dodge cases were made with both starter locations: low thru '93 to clear the V8 engine blocks, and low and high for the V8's and Diesels from '94^.
Both versions can be seen on PATC site in Ramzilla section.

Sam, the early Euro KJ with the 2.5 and 5sp manual or AW4 automatic still had the CCD buss - I looked thru more data this a.m. - the SCI\K and PCI busses were adopted anywhere the amst 45RFE was used, back thru '99.

If I were doing your conversion, the entire harness from the KJ would go into the other vehicle, with the SGII\equiv to hush the clamor for any missing non-critical component(s)

BTW, thanks for taking the time to raise the flag and post corrections - that pursuit would have been some bad r&d in funding and execution - I may hook this 68RFE up just to see what kind of furor erupts with no ECM and FIPM.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Thats interesting, wish I had those FSMs in PDf to lookup that data. Give me hope that the AW4 could actually hold up to the torque behind the diesel.

Much of the KJ would be used in a swap into an XJ, however there are some things that would need to be interfaced. hopefully I would be able to use a PCI guage cluster from a TJ(which bolts in the same as the XJ, literally it will fit in the stock dash without major modification). Things like the kj BCM and such would all need to be used, connected in some areas to the XJ wiring, for things like dimmer control, fuel status etc.

Ya, I've been reading the FSMs quite a bit, lotsa useful information in there.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

00XJE, for one, shows it - you got it.............

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go