performance module

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

How does the In Motion tuning achieve the power results? Pressure, timing and or duration. I am not a big fan of increasing pressure to the delicate injectors. Are there any power adders that only adjust timing and duration? Advancing timing is the best way to increase mileage and is the way most pressure boxes help mileage. With higher rail pressure the same amount of fuel is injected at a lighter throttle position at cruising speed. The ECM will not retard the timing as much compaired to the throttle position of stock rail pressure (at cruising speed). Therefore, pressure boxes can advance timing, indirectly. At least that's my understanding.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:22 pm

James at InMotion (503-608-7717) will be more than happy to discuss the tune with you.

My understanding from speaking with him is that when a manfacturer tunes a vehicle, they have to keep in mind emissions, noise, and a plethoria of other factors when they develop the programming for the ECU. In the end, it is hardly ever the proper state of tune for the engine. In fact, on some engines (particularly gas engines), the tune may actually harm the engine over long periods of time due to things such as a lean running condition that thankfully, we as diesel drivers, don't have to worry about.

InMotion uses a dyno and other analysis equipment to tune the engine to run at it's best. Because the ECU reads ALL sensors, not just a few, and the chip tune can adjust EVERY parameter, you end up with a better quality performance bump.

Doing an add on module is sort of like running a computer operating system in a virtual environment such as VMWARE or Virtual PC. It will work, but never as fast as running it in it's native environment.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Tinman wrote:

Are there any power adders that only adjust timing and duration?

Edge is the most conservative of the add-on modules (at least that is what it looked like from my research), but they still increase pressure (though their horsepower/torque claims are not nearly as high as other makers).

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:48 pm

Neither Edge nor Inmotion would give me numbers for injector rail pressure - both said they are confident their systems are reliable, but no numbers.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:55 pm

Threeweight wrote:

Tinman wrote:

Are there any power adders that only adjust timing and duration?

Edge is the most conservative of the add-on modules (at least that is what it looked like from my research), but they still increase pressure (though their horsepower/torque claims are not nearly as high as other makers).

Inmotion is the only one able to directly modify timing and duration. All the others are relying on being able to reliably fool the factory programming. Not a good way to go about it.

I'd say Edge's claims are realistic. They have a good reputation, unlike all the other fly-by-night modules on ebay, who have no reputation, and are counting on people not to do before and after dyno tests.

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:51 pm

Pressure doesn't hurt the injectors - what damages those 'fragile injectors' is dirt and water in the fuel - the engine was stifled to meet emissions standards, as seen by the choked-off muffler, oh so cleverly disguised in that 35gal barrel with the large inlet and outlet, hanging out from under the vehicle, right back of the soot trap - that's like the throttle plate Nascar runs to protect the drivers from high speeds

- Edge and others unstifle the engine in variously similar methods without addressing the other reason for the stifle job, F37 included: yer plastic torque convertor - now there's a piece of work that'll go down in the anals of automotive history.

I'm planning on picking up a second ECM for the Inmotion tune, compare it with the stock ECM and Edge Trail module that was on our mule when we acquired it - then stack'em for the thrill of it - that oughta be a show.

And BTW - we don't carry plastic............................

MACKJ · **Posted:** Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:13 pm

gmctd wrote:

... the stifle job, F37 included: yer plastic torque convertor - now there's a piece of work that'll go down in the anals of automotive history.
..........

Did you mean annals or am I being a little anal ??:wink:

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:03 pm

No sir - that definitely was not a typo........................

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:06 am

gmctd
It seems like you're saying that pressure isn't a significant issue and I know that most wear comes from particles in the 6-8 micron range - which is a driving factor for trying to get a 2 micron filter inline.
however it seems to me that even a 1-2 micron particle is going to wear more at 30,000psi than at 20,000 psi - so won't that be a concern?
Also all pumps and lines will have seals and connectors - so a jump above the 30,000 that the engine is capable of today seems like an invitation to leaks & drips.
So my question is, can higher pressure be done reliably?

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:13 pm

Correct - but, the output of the CP3 is internally limited to 23200psi - the CP3 in new 6.7 Cummins is only capable of 26000psi - next year's Diesels, and some this year, are hitting 28-30000psi with ceramic injectors - but not our little mule - when you hear that the hot-boxes increase rail pressure, what they are doing is offsetting the output from the rail pressure sensor, such that if ECM is calling for 17500psi at a particular demand, the offset results in delivery pressure of 18500 which results in more fuel flowing thru the injectors even tho ECM has not increased injection event duration - you can do that with a simple resistor, but, while that's really good for power demand, it ain't good for idle and 30mph - the boxes sense rail pressure and manifold pressure (Boost) to determine when and how much rail pressure is required to augment power.

Two ways to increase flowrate in a system: increase the cross-sectional area or\and increase the applied pressure.

ECM can increase the area, and does so by calling for more injector duration per event - that's what happens when you hit the loud pedal, and of course ECM also increases the pressure accordingly to keep up with the increased demand for fuel - but, since ECM is stifled by emissions concerns and F37, the boxes were created to pull the wool over ECM's eyes, and you get the power.

Diesel fuel at 23200psi erodes the injectors at a very slow rate - they're good for ~75kmi - much denser water, on the other hand, can cut a groove in the nozzle in fairly short order at those pressures, particularly if the groove was initiated by a piece of silicate - talking with some Dodge service guys, water and dirt is the cause of the majority of early injector failures - which is why DCJ changed from 10ucron to 7ucron filters in the Cummins trucks - the failures have lessened but still occur, but DCJ won't go for the 2ucron filters because of decreased service life: 2ucron filters stop up very rapidly compared to even a 7ucron, particularly when some dufus has removed the oem pre-filter because, in his own words: "that little pos filter stops up and the lift pump cain't get no fuel"

So, no worries on the 'increased pressure' scenario - it can't happen with this CP3, or the Dodge, or the DMaX - just nail the loud pedal and yer good to go...................

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

GMCTD, what is your best guess on the life expectancy for our CP3?

I'm hoping that a steady diet of B20 (or higher) biodiesel with its naturally high lubricity will aid in keeping it happy and functional longer.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:47 pm

So far, most of the failures have been seal leaks between the case halves - from what I have observed, usually where the guy is running an external hi-pressure lift pump - lot of trucks out there on the original lift pump, as well as the original CP3 - so, the prognosis looks good - owner-added established lubricity schemes can't hurt

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:00 pm

True that the CP3 won't develop "too much" pressure. That is, there's a spring loaded pop-off valve to vent pressure if it gets above a pre-determined safe pressure. I don't know what value that is for this pump. Buuut, your pump will surely have a shorter life the higher average pressure it's running at. And that's all these plug in boxes do. Where I work I know we could get more life out of our pumps if it were not for the pressures Cat is asking for.

edit spelling

pipefactory · **Posted:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:51 pm

BlackLibertyCRD wrote:

I have the predator and can smoke the tires if I want. Since I did the fuel mod I never had any need to unplug it. I'm getting great mileage from it too. The only problem is it may take out the factory torque convertor. I heard the InMotion has the same problem. Maybe one more cross country trip and back towing and I have to go to the Suncoast upgrade. :lol:

I have the same tire smoking problem with my Predator so I hooked up a toggle to shut it off when not towing.
I'm towing my Rambler to race at muscle car shootout in Brainard, MN this fall but also going to race my CRD. With the predator I can lock into 4 wheel, spool up the turbo then let it go and it will lift one front tire.(main reason for the toggle switch)

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:10 am

Wow, I never tried that and don't doubt it would work on mine too. I learned to be light footed most of the time but sometimes I surprise others by leaving them in the dust. :lol:

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

My Edge module came with remote wiring and a toggle switch for running into the cab. It has three positions (off, fuel economy, performance).

mark2m · **Posted:** Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:19 am

gmctd wrote:

Correct - but, the output of the CP3 is internally limited to 23200psi - the CP3 in new 6.7 Cummins is only capable of 26000psi - next year's Diesels, and some this year, are hitting 28-30000psi with ceramic injectors - but not our little mule - when you hear that the hot-boxes increase rail pressure, what they are doing is offsetting the output from the rail pressure sensor, such that if ECM is calling for 17500psi at a particular demand, the offset results in delivery pressure of 18500 which results in more fuel flowing thru the injectors even tho ECM has not increased injection event duration - you can do that with a simple resistor, but, while that's really good for power demand, it ain't good for idle and 30mph - the boxes sense rail pressure and manifold pressure (Boost) to determine when and how much rail pressure is required to augment power.
..

Just a bit of info for you guys. I have a DashDyno which will show fuel rail pressure. I see pressures as high as 18,000 - 20,000 psi when on the highway. Accelerating on the highway it will hold about 21,000 psi. Granted I drive about 75mph most of the time and when just driving normally through town I will see anywhere from 4,000 - 5,000psi at idle, cruising about 40mph gives me about 10,000 - 15,000psi and acceleration I routinely see the pressure spike to 18,000 - 20,000 psi also. With my foot to the floor it maxes out over 23,000 psi. So in stock trim the little pump gives you everything it is capable of.

Don't know how much more performance you will see by just bumping fuel pressures if it is so close to the max as is. With knowing that I would think you will see a better performance boost with the InMotion since it does work with all the other variables. This is just a guess by me though.

logiclee · **Posted:** Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:26 pm

gmctd wrote:

the Euro KJ's are not de-tuned quite so heavily as ours, which are calibrated to meet stringent US emissions requirements

No wonder you guys are unhappy, I'm still wishing I'd never had my UK CRD F37'ed.

We have a wide range of tuners for modern common rail diesels in the UK from tuning modules, simple remaps and even systems with switchable maps or units where you can upload your original map come service time. 190bhp and 360lbft is around the top figures quoted by uk tuners.

What we dont have is any real interest from UK tuners in autoboxes and no one does an upgraded torque converter.
So currently I'm running the Euro F37 map and not risking anything more. The CRD KJ is still on sale in the UK and has always retained the 295lbft@1800rpm quoted output.

I've had both tuning modules and remaps done on VW and Ford saloon cars and they have all worked well. VW UK tuning firm Jabbasport offer a 185bhp 330lbft conversion for the VW 1.9PD 130bhp engine. Makes for an entertaing drive when fitted to a 1200kg small city car like my wife's :lol:

Cheers
Lee

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:53 pm

Cool - any of those tuners specific to the KJ CRD?

Increasing rail pressure is one of two methods to get increased flowrate when ECM refuses to increase area - area also can be increased with high output injectors - also with increased duration per injection event: if the injector is closed more than it's open the effective area is small - if the injector is open more than it's closed, the effective area is large - increase duration = more fuel.

Inmotion tunes will likely increase injection duration with corresponding pressure increase, but it will be acompanied by correct event timing relative to TDC - the boxes just offset fuel pressure and Boost resulting in increased output - PCM doesn't know this is happening, so does not vary timing accordingly - greater overall performance gains should be obtainable with the Inmotion upgrade

Again, and - as long as you're not pulling the CP3 off and making unauthorized modifications to the internals, no add-on box is gonna increase rail pressure over the Bosch CP3 output spec, so there is no danger of damaging the CP3 or the injectors, no matter how often or how long you keep yer foot in it - just keep the fuel clean and yer good to go..........

CATCRD · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:57 am

gmctd wrote:

Again, and - as long as you're not pulling the CP3 off and making unauthorized modifications to the internals, no add-on box is gonna increase rail pressure over the Bosch CP3 output spec, so there is no danger of damaging the CP3 or the injectors, no matter how often or how long you keep yer foot in it - just keep the fuel clean and yer good to go..........

I don't know how you can categorically make this statement without some inside info you're not letting us in on. Given mark2m's observations about peak pressure in stock form, how else would the boxes increase full accelerator power other than causing fuel pressure to go over 23.3kpsi?

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