2 cycle TC-W3 diesel fuel ratio?

chrispitude · **Posted:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:36 am

I have some data from the return trip from TX to PA:

The first tank was without the additive. We had the cruise control set exactly to 74mph indicated. I added two gallons along the way to get to a truck stop with a good fuel price.

468.3 miles / 20.615 gallons = 22.7 mpg without additive (fuel from TX)
The second tank was with the additive. Again, we set the cruise control at the same value. This tank included an overnight stay and a cold start the next morning (well below freezing).

422.2 miles / 18.163 gallons = 23.2 mpg WITH additive (fuel from TN)
The third tank was also with the additive. This time, we set the cruise control to 69mph indicated to see if the slower speed would help.

382.2 miles / 14.429 gallons = 26.5 mpg WITH additive (fuel from VA)

We are still on the last tank of fuel, and I didn't have an additive bottle left to add, so that's the end of the experiments. Based on the data above, I think the really good tank in the trip down was from exactly what a previous poster said - I got some good fuel which didn't foam, and ended up really filling up the filler tube to the tippy-top, resulting in really good distance numbers on the next tank. I remember now that the odometer said nearly 300 miles when the fuel gauge was at the halfway point, which supports that theory. Still, the additive seems to help fuel economy somewhat, and my wife and I both agree that it seems to run a bit smoother and have a bit more pep in its step with the additive.

Our mileage is absolutely crappy, and I don't know why. We got much better mileage (26-27mpg) on the same trip to TX last winter, driving at the same speeds in the same temperatures with the same amount of cargo. This year we are running Pirelli Scorpion ATR load range D tires at 45psi. They are only 3 lbs heavier than the P-rated Firestone Destination ATs that they replace. Yes I know that the Pirellis have the extra weight around the outside, but I can't imagine that the Pirellis at 45psi would result in such a mileage drop compared to the Firestones at 35psi. Our turbocharger was recently replaced due to excessive oil/soot sludge clogging up the vanes, and I strongly suspect (and hope) there is something wrong with our EGR.

- Chris

nescosmo · **Joined:** Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:17 pm **Posts:** 202

[quote="chrispitude"]I have some data from the return trip from TX to PA:

The first tank was without the additive. We had the cruise control set exactly to 74mph indicated. I added two gallons along the way to get to a truck stop with a good fuel price.

468.3 miles / 20.615 gallons = 22.7 mpg without additive (fuel from TX)
The second tank was with the additive. Again, we set the cruise control at the same value. This tank included an overnight stay and a cold start the next morning (well below freezing).

422.2 miles / 18.163 gallons = 23.2 mpg WITH additive (fuel from TN)
The third tank was also with the additive. This time, we set the cruise control to 69mph indicated to see if the slower speed would help.

382.2 miles / 14.429 gallons = 26.5 mpg WITH additive (fuel from VA)

With what you have in your CRD all you have to do to increase milege is to replaced your differential oil. I use Royal Purple, 75w-90 for the front and the 90w-140 for the rear. You will notice the change. The range D is very heavy for the CRD, too much tire waist of money.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:14 am

If he ventures of the pavement much. Heavy tires are a good idea. The stock tires are optimized for mileage and can be punctured by a harsh look. Mine consist of plugs strung together with tire cord at this point. :roll:

chrispitude · **Posted:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:24 pm

Hi folks,

Tires are certainly a possible cause for the pool fuel economy. I wanted the load range D tires for the stiffer sidewall for towing this summer.

I did research the weights before I purchased the tires:

Firestone Destination A/T in 235/70SR16 - 33lbs

Pirelli Scorpion ATR in 225/75SR16 - 40lbs

I know a lot of the "hypermilers" actually run LT-D and LT-E tires at high pressures to reduce their rolling resistance. A heavy tire will resist a change in speed due to its polar moment of inertia. However, this doesn't mean that the tire should automatically result in worse mileage when I crank out 500 solid highway miles with the cruise control set.

I am running the Pirellis at 45psi, compared to the Destinations which I used to run at 35psi. The Pirellis run nice and smooth on the highway and feel like they roll a little easier than our Blizzak winter tires. (I don't have anything else available for comparison.)

Some of my options at this point are:

Install an EVIC so I can perform more controlled fuel economy experiments.
Get my AutoXRay EZ-Link OBD-II scanner working so I can read intake temperature and coolant temperature to test and confirm the EGR/ORM work as expected.
Borrow a set of normal P-rated tires and use one of the methods above to measure any difference in rolling resistance effects on fuel economy.
Convince the dealer that since the turbocharger was replaced due to intake sludge, they really ought to replace the EGR valve too

We can blame it on the tires all day long, but I need to find a way to test that theory.

- Chris

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:57 pm

chrispitude wrote:

Hi folks,

Tires are certainly a possible cause for the pool fuel economy. I wanted the load range D tires for the stiffer sidewall for towing this summer.

I did research the weights before I purchased the tires:

Firestone Destination A/T in 235/70SR16 - 33lbs

Pirelli Scorpion ATR in 225/75SR16 - 40lbs

I know a lot of the "hypermilers" actually run LT-D and LT-E tires at high pressures to reduce their rolling resistance. A heavy tire will resist a change in speed due to its polar moment of inertia. However, this doesn't mean that the tire should automatically result in worse mileage when I crank out 500 solid highway miles with the cruise control set.

I am running the Pirellis at 45psi, compared to the Destinations which I used to run at 35psi. The Pirellis run nice and smooth on the highway and feel like they roll a little easier than our Blizzak winter tires. (I don't have anything else available for comparison.)

Some of my options at this point are:

Install an EVIC so I can perform more controlled fuel economy experiments.
Get my AutoXRay EZ-Link OBD-II scanner working so I can read intake temperature and coolant temperature to test and confirm the EGR/ORM work as expected.
Borrow a set of normal P-rated tires and use one of the methods above to measure any difference in rolling resistance effects on fuel economy.
Convince the dealer that since the turbocharger was replaced due to intake sludge, they really ought to replace the EGR valve too

We can blame it on the tires all day long, but I need to find a way to test that theory.

- Chris

Chris, I like the way you think. The Liberty CRD has so many challenging variables that could effect mileage, that’s why I got rid of mine. However, I agree that you really have to check everything before making assumptions.

JimK · **Posted:** Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:26 pm

Not to change the subject back to fuel additives, but...on my '85 VW Jetta NAD (Normally Aspirated Diesel) that I recently sold to a German dude that lives in my area who fell in love with it ("Yaah, I vood like buy your Volksvaagen Deezel, No?") and I had a hard time parting with it. :cry:

On the advice of a dude in Ohio who works on VW diesels, he suggested using ATF, to lube up the pump (LSD, ULSD), keep the injectors clean and to increase mileage (probably increases cetane #). I used to add 8 oz of Dexron Mercon III type ATF to each tank (11 or 12 gals) and it helped immensely, especially in keeping the injectors clean. The gutless little NAD also had air conditioning, so during AC season I used to advance the pump timing slightly to get a little more torque out of it while the compressor was running, which used to cause my injectors to get dirty, especially on the highway. Also, I lost a few MPG when I changed the pump timing, but the ATF used to make up for it.

Now I realize there's a huge difference between the two injection systems (110 bar vs. 1600 bar; Bosch VE pump and mechanical injectors vs. extreme close tolerance common rail pump/elect. injectors, (don't forget the air sucking, fire starting fuel filter/heater assembly at no extra charge

), etc.), but has anyone else heard using ATF in our system and what would be the advantage/harm of doing it (even vs. low ash 2 stroke motor oil)?

Thanks,

Jim

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:29 pm

JimK wrote:

Not to change the subject back to fuel additives, but...on my '85 VW Jetta NAD (Normally Aspirated Diesel) that I recently sold to a German dude that lives in my area who fell in love with it ("Yaah, I vood like buy your Volksvaagen Deezel, No?") and I had a hard time parting with it. :cry:

On the advice of a dude in Ohio who works on VW diesels, he suggested using ATF, to lube up the pump (LSD, ULSD), keep the injectors clean and to increase mileage (probably increases cetane #). I used to add 8 oz of Dexron Mercon III type ATF to each tank (11 or 12 gals) and it helped immensely, especially in keeping the injectors clean. The gutless little NAD also had air conditioning, so during AC season I used to advance the pump timing slightly to get a little more torque out of it while the compressor was running, which used to cause my injectors to get dirty, especially on the highway. Also, I lost a few MPG when I changed the pump timing, but the ATF used to make up for it.

Now I realize there's a huge difference between the two injection systems (110 bar vs. 1600 bar; Bosch VE pump and mechanical injectors vs. extreme close tolerance common rail pump/elect. injectors, (don't forget the air sucking, fire starting fuel filter/heater assembly at no extra charge

), etc.), but has anyone else heard using ATF in our system and what would be the advantage/harm of doing it (even vs. low ash 2 stroke motor oil)?

Thanks,

Jim

I owned better then a dozen of those gutless na vw diesels starting with a 78 rabbit in 78. I used transmission fluid and diesel tone for years. But I would never think of using it in a crd. ATF has a anti friction addative that I don't think that would be good for nodern systems. I also did not use it in my two TDI's :lol:

Joe

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:54 pm

the problem with atf is it burns very dirty.. where as the 2 stroke is ash less... but it provides the same benefits as atf

chrispitude · **Posted:** Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:33 pm

Hi all,

To make the first batch of additive bottles, I just manually added 6oz oil and 6oz Powerservice to each empty 20oz soda bottle, a bottle at a time. It wasn't a very efficient way to do it, but it was okay for the first batch of bottles.

This time around, I bought one of those pumps that screws into many types of plastic bottles. I also bought a bottle of windshield washer fluid, filled up all my vehicles, and washed it and let it sit it on the heating vent in the living room to dry. To be sure the bottle was free of dirt and moisture, I put a splash of kerosene in the bottle and swished it around with the lid on. Then I emptied the kerosene into my used oil jug.

Both the TC-W3 and Powerservice jugs have level indicators on their sides, which makes things very easy. Using those level indicators, I poured the same amount of each into the empty jug and screwed on the pump. Voila - now I can easily fill up the 20oz bottles from the pump whenever needed! I simply fill each bottle up to the top indentation where the top of the label was.

Once filled, I wipe off the outside of the bottles with a paper towel lightly sprayed with degreaser (can't have the wife coming home smelling like Powerservice!), and I let the bottles sit upside-down overnight in a plastic container to ensure they're leakproof. She keeps a full bottle in the rear driver's cupholder, where it's easily accessible when it's time to refuel.

take a picture, it'll last longer

- Chris

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:42 pm

very nice set up... but here is a suggestion... once it gets warmer, use the power service in the grey bottle instead of the white.. on my dads ram, it meant an extra 2 mpg. you will also notice a reduction in the smoke on acceleration and a boost in power

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:30 am

I made a similar trip down to TX, Austin area, and back to NC, I-35/I-30/I-40.

Returning just after New Years, the temps were much colder than the previous two years I made the trip. First part of the return leg, my mileage was close to what your's was - 22 MPG.

Second day, after covering over the fuel cooler, and having the radiator mostly blocked off, mileage zoomed up to 30 MPG. And that was on the bottom half of the same tank of fuel that the previous night had only given me 22 MPG. Stayed up in the 30 MPG range for the rest of the trip home.

I was absolutely amazed that it could knock down mileage like that with the temps in the teens and 20's.

Previous two winter trips down there, when temps were in the 40's to 50's, it would get mileage in the high 20's. When I made a special trip down there this past May, with temps in the 90's, it was knocking down 30 to 32 mpg on a regular basis - and that was pre-lift pump and pre-Suncoast.

Cold temps can really knock this beast in the head when it comes to fuel mileage. Try putting on one of the Fia grille blankets or rigging up grille blocker inserts such as Darby did.

IMO, I wouldn't have had a prayer of coming anywhere close to 30 MPG without the grille blockers installed. Aside from fuel temp, intake air temps less than 60 F also seem to put a hurt on fuel economy, and having colder than normal engine coolant doesn't help either.

With all the electronic sensors on it, this beast is VERY sensitive to ambient temps where fuel mileage is concerned compared with that old-fashioned mechanical clacker in the '87 MB. As far as the '87, it sat idle for over a week and a half in the same cold temps, yet when I got home it fired up on the first try without so much as a sputter, and has been knocking down a consistent 30 mpg average commuting to work all winter long.

My grille blockers aren't coming off until it's spring and temps are back above 70 F full time.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:35 am

retmil46 wrote:

I made a similar trip down to TX, Austin area, and back to NC, I-35/I-30/I-40.

Returning just after New Years, the temps were much colder than the previous two years I made the trip. First part of the return leg, my mileage was close to what your's was - 22 MPG.

Second day, after covering over the fuel cooler, and having the radiator mostly blocked off, mileage zoomed up to 30 MPG. And that was on the bottom half of the same tank of fuel that the previous night had only given me 22 MPG. Stayed up in the 30 MPG range for the rest of the trip home.

I was absolutely amazed that it could knock down mileage like that with the temps in the teens and 20's.

Previous two winter trips down there, when temps were in the 40's to 50's, it would get mileage in the high 20's. When I made a special trip down there this past May, with temps in the 90's, it was knocking down 30 to 32 mpg on a regular basis - and that was pre-lift pump and pre-Suncoast.

Cold temps can really knock this beast in the head when it comes to fuel mileage. Try putting on one of the Fia grille blankets or rigging up grille blocker inserts such as Darby did.

IMO, I wouldn't have had a prayer of coming anywhere close to 30 MPG without the grille blockers installed. Aside from fuel temp, intake air temps less than 60 F also seem to put a hurt on fuel economy, and having colder than normal engine coolant doesn't help either.

With all the electronic sensors on it, this beast is VERY sensitive to ambient temps where fuel mileage is concerned compared with that old-fashioned mechanical clacker in the '87 MB. As far as the '87, it sat idle for over a week and a half in the same cold temps, yet when I got home it fired up on the first try without so much as a sputter, and has been knocking down a consistent 30 mpg average commuting to work all winter long.

My grille blockers aren't coming off until it's spring and temps are back above 70 F full time.

Great information! I wonder if a grille blanket would work on my Cummins as well?

fastRob · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2008 7:04 pm

*
We are going on a 1200 mile round trip this week, time to do some experimenting.

Bought the Power Service White and Grey and will try some 2 stroke oils.

Figure there is enough time to do some testing.

Thinking about 1/2 oz/gal 2 stroke and follow the label on the Power Service.

Thoughts?

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2008 8:25 pm

fastRob wrote:

*
We are going on a 1200 mile round trip this week, time to do some experimenting.

Bought the Power Service White and Grey and will try some 2 stroke oils.

Figure there is enough time to do some testing.

Thinking about 1/2 oz/gal 2 stroke and follow the label on the Power Service.

Thoughts?

Try Biodiesel if you get a chance. The grey bottle of Power Service is what you want to use during the summer months. The white bottle is just for winter use. On the Cummins, I used 1 oz to 1 gallon of the TCw3. Have FUN!

fastRob · **Posted:** Wed May 28, 2008 12:08 pm

We did it, Osceola PA and back, great folks except for a minor scuffle with the Tioga Auxiliary Coast Guard.
570 miles each way with poor control of variables.
29 mpg first tank nothing over about 67mph, Power Service Grey and TWC-3, quite a bit of 60 mph and around town, Irving Oil.
24 mpg second tank with Power Service White and TWC-3, woke up from a nap and the wife was doing 80 mph, Sunoco.
26 mpg third tank, Power Service Grey, TWC-3; about 100 miles of 4 wheeling, off roading and putting about, rubber necking, 380 miles highway, stop and go to 80 mph, Shell Oil.

My Conclusions, Power Service Grey, Yay!
The TWC-3 2 stroke oil seemed to smooth things out, thumbs up.
Big Brother is alive and well, be careful out there, keep the registration numbers on the boat properly spaced.

1/2 oz per gallon of Power Service and Valvoline(it was free) TWC-3

2 cycle TC-W3 diesel fuel ratio?

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