Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

geordi - Like most major sectors, every question you raised is actually documented in full. I would highly suggest starting here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/finance/usi ... index.html

Many of the questions, especially in regards to refinery profit margins and ownership are directly answered, although I do admit its a chore to wade through it all. One interesting point in there is that US refining capacity has done nothing but grow since 1980, regardless of how many refineries are open. This is due to newer refining capabilities, the ability to refine poorer grade crude and expansion of capacity at existing capacities. We never reached a point where supply declined year over year due to refining capacity. The charts are all there if your curious. You can also find in there that the percentage of refineries owned by big oil companies has dropped from 1990 to present, they have been divesting themselves of that part of the pipeline for nearly two decades now.

If your argument is simply that its a conspiracy with no possible way for anyone to understand, well, I can't argue with that logic, after all its impossible to disprove an argument made without concrete facts behind it.

I do agree about OPEC however, but they don't hide any pretenses, they are a cartel and they do control supply.

BTW, look into China and India, yes, their economic expansion is growing by leaps and bounds, better than 10% a year in some cases, which is tremendous when you consider the sheer size of their economies in and of themselves(China just passed the US recently in sheer size economically). Energy consumption grows almost linearly with economic growth, and when you have growth rates like that combined with a limited resource and increasing demand, yes a 300% cost increase is entirely feasible.

BTW, one of our members here who was in Germany on a military base had the cost of fuel in that country without cost(they got an exemption from local prices). I think it was jinstall but I'm not sure. Oddly enough, removing the taxes, German prices were identical to US prices(without taxes). My brother reported the same thing(he got back from Germany last July). What that means is that any 'conspiracy' to set prices is apparantly global and all governments are apparantly dupes. I don't really believe that...

MOSFET · **Joined:** Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:40 pm **Posts:** 295

Quote:

If your argument is simply that its a conspiracy with no possible way for anyone to understand, well, I can't argue with that logic, after all its impossible to disprove an argument made without concrete facts behind it.

That is perfectly stated.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:06 pm

Questions of refinery capacity, ownership, and conspiracy theories aside, that still doesn't answer any of the other points or explain the current price situation.

US crude inventories have went up for 7 weeks straight, up 30 million barrels since the beginning of the year.

Gasoline inventories are at a 14 year high.

OPEC is hinting that it will not raise production at their next meeting as in their words there is a "hefty surplus" of crude on the global market.

US demand is down and economic data shows the economy slowing to a crawl.

Both OPEC and every analyst I've seen quoted say the same thing - the market fundamentals are not there to support prices at these levels. Even Goldman Sachs, the people who wrote "Shorting Stocks 101", say there's no rational reason for oil to be more than $80/barrel max.

And all quote the same reason why prices are at these levels - speculators and hedge fund traders on Wall Street, ignoring economic data and market fundamentals, concentrating on the least hint of bad news on supply and the dollar, trying to drive the price even higher to make more of a profit.

And they are increasingly moving to long term positions on oil futures - in other words, now they NEED the price of oil to stay above $100/barrel, and go even higher, so as not to lose their shirts.

In my book, that still boils down to the same answer - it has nothing to do with supply and demand, but what they can get away with. Once again, godd old American Bush-league economics - as long as you make yourself rich, it's okay to screw over everyone else.

UFO · **Posted:** Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:19 pm

And part of the problem is also the value of the dollar. Consequences of our fiscal and trade policies.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

UFO wrote:

And part of the problem is also the value of the dollar. Consequences of our fiscal and trade policies.

This right here is another *major* reason that gas prices have gone up. The dollar has lost roughly half its value since 2001 and oil is an import. As a result the price of a barrel(which is priced in dollars) has climbed precipitously.

BTW, I support the drop in the value of the dollar, yes it harms us on products we import(such as oil) but it also helps US companies compete globally, brings jobs back home and may be the only thing staving off a full scale recession at the moment.

Oh, one other odd consequence to the falling dollar: Its got gold investors in a tizzy going on about how much gold has increased in value. However since gold is priced internationally its price in dollars makes it look like its worth far more than it was in the past but thats due to the falling dollar, not due to gold going up as much as people think. In real terms gold has only about doubled in the past 7 years, which still sounds impressive till you realize that that is only about a third of its value in 1983...

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Just to summarize so far -

- Increasing demand in third world nations
- Falling value of the dollar
- OPEC and other oil exporting nations constraining supply
- Inflation (out of control by most non-government accounts)
- Speculators (I agree with Retmil on that one, definatly)

All valid reasons, and when added up, and also when one considers that oil has significantly underperformed inflation for nearly three decades, I don't think the current price is unjustified.

But it also means its time for change.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

So I'm a newbie to the forum, and to owning a jeep. The jeep isn't necessarily mine, it's the spouses but I will be doing the upkeep on it.

I drive a 2006 VW Jetta TDI 1.9L

From what I've gathered on this forum, and I do appreciate the wealth of information, is that it's one of the better technical forums. You guys haven't stooped to the levels I've seen on other VW sites.

Onto the point: biodiesel.

We live in North Carolina. I bought my TDI on 2/9/07. As of this posting it has 50,009 miles on it. I've destroyed the factory clutch, upgraded it (weak design, couldn't have the Unitronic software chip... mmm 250ft/lb in a sedan is nice). I've run the car on B100 since day one. I haven't had any of the issues that people on TDI Club report; with exception to I decided to change the fuel filter every 10,000 miles as a precaution. I've only had to change it out once outside that cycle -- because someone else filled it up with Diesel #2. The very next B100 tank after the D2 -- keep in mind I had run 5 to 6 B100 tanks thru this filter without any problems -- it started to lose power on WOT about 100mi into the tank. The filter was black and smelled like sulfur. That doesn't sound like a "biodiesel" problem to be; but it is: the biodiesel lubricated so much of the fuel system that the sulfur was passed right into the filter and left alone.

Based upon this, when we got the CRD (and having the privilege of speaking to other B100 CRD owners in the area), I say the biggest concerns to a CRD on B100 would be:

Potentially higher risk for fire with the Fuel Heater Element problem. I can't confirm this, as it seems that B100 ignites harder than D2 (based on using it in an oil lamp), however I am by no means a scientist.

Fuel filter change with every oil change -- you might get by with changing it every other oil change, but your mileage may vary.

I read somewhere that the plastic fuel box infront of the fuel rail may leak. The poster didn't specify they had used Biodiesel; Biodiesel doesn't seem to be as prevelant in this community as it is in the VW TDI realm. Based on this, there is the potential risk of the B100 making it leak faster. If it leaks at all.

All that said, I did notice some scorching to the wire for the heater in the fuel filter. We've placed a service call into carmax and will have them replace the filter and housing (we've had the car 3 days now).

However, We've already put 7.7 gallons of B100 into it. I haven't noticed it being that much quieter yet, but the next tank will be B100. We're OK with experimenting, as the carmax warranty is valid at any ASE certified mechanic. I know a Bio-friendly ASE certified mechanic! However, I don't feel we'll have any unusual problems. I seriously don't.

I do want to see what the Boost Pressure Sensor looks like after 20k on B100... I'm going to pull it out tomorrow for cleaning. We're at 41k... i'm not expecting a solid carbon mass to come out.

That's my $.02. You guys have a great community here!

cntrline36 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:55 pm

Hi kcfoxie,
Good first post.

I would like to humbly disagree that BioD would be more dangerous for the filter head heater problem. Two reasons. a. bio-d has a higher flash point. b. bio does not foam. Since air in the filter head is the problem, anything that reduces that is good.

Case in point:
My wife uses her KJ on a rural mail route. It has ~40K on it. We burn B100 in the summer. B70/30K1 in the winter. Her Jeep stays in a heated shop at night. Her fuel heater plug had a very slight weep, barely noticable. That's with running ~90 miles of dusty roads every day, so a significant leak would have really stood out. I had purchased a lift pump but had not installed it yet.
She recently went out of town for a week. Since the KJ was going to be outside each night in 20 degree weather, I filled it with dino diesel.
She left on a Monday. Tuesday afternoon she calls and says the jeep won't start. I gave her a refresher course on how to bleed the air from the filter head. It starts and she takes it to a local wrench slinger and has him change the filter(she carries an extra). It runs OK back to the motel. Next morning she calls and can't get out of the parking lot because the Jeep keeps dying shortly after she gets the air bled out. I get online and order a Racor 245 filterhead, temp sensor, and pressure gauge 2nd day air, and go borrow BIL's car hauler.
When I get there(in a snow storm) I have to bleed the filter four times just to get it on the trailer. I noticed when I'm pumping the primer that there is an occasional tiny stream of diesel fuel coming from somewhere. I booty/u/me it is coming from the heater connection. Did I mention that it was snowing? A lot.
When we get it home I installed the lift pump first. During the process of testing it out I find (in a nice warm, well lit, not snowing shop) the fuel is coming out between the filter and the puck. It seems the wrench slinger got the filter just tight enough for it to hold a seal until it cooled off over night.
Anyway, there are lots of coulda's and shoulda's in the whole situation, but it all started with a tank full of 100% dino diesel.

Clint

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

Clint,

That story is worthy of it's own thread! How is the Racor setup now? I've not delved too far into the tech forum yet, but I am planning to upgrade the filter hardware once carmax replaces it with OEM parts. I like OEM spares, they get boxed up and reinstalled only if necessary for extended warranty work.

I have thought about a K30/B70 mix for the winter, but out Co-Op went direct to B50 Petrol for the winter since they were working with chicken fat. Chicken fat is a great summer fuel, but I tend to keep WVO B100 on hand for the winter. Around here it hasn't gotten cold enough to cause it to gel. I am fortunate in this.

Now, I am a cityslicker and have this dreded little condo. We have to park in a community lot at night. I can throw an extension cord down to the Jeep if it parts in front of the stacked units, but is this necessary? My TDI has never had any trouble, I think our lowest temp over the winter was 17. Just curious on your thoughts/experiences since you mentioned the heated garage.

Chris

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:38 pm

First thing I would do is unhook that stupid fuel heater wire from the puck, it will prevent a world of problems if it's not already leaking. For my KJ, there is a Stanadyne filter in it's future. I already own the Stanadyne from my VW Jetta days, so the price is right! :lol:

I'm in South Carolina on the border with Savannah right now, and it's been down to 28 and possibly lower several times since I bought my Jeep. As there isn't any bio available anywhere near me, I have to bring it up myself from Miami when I occasionally head home for a weekend. The B100 that I had in cans turned into a lovely container of chicken-flavored bio-jello... But what was in the car (at about b50) was just fine. KJ started up every morning without fail, and without arguing for any extended periods.

I won't be back to B100 (or anything close) for quite some time however, as I'm a grad student, and this point of the year is really tough financially... And the wonderfulness of $4 diesel is NOT helping my mood any. I'm strongly considering starting to brew my own again, with the way these prices are.

cntrline36 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:41 pm

Chris,
I'm very impressed with the Racor245. It's a quality piece of equipment. It has an impressive heater in the bottom. I installed it according to this: http://liberty.eurekaboy.com/racor.htm . The only thing I did differently was to put the T and temperature sensor on the flow side instead of on the static side with the pressure gauge. That being said, I believe(and several others too) that a lift pump will extend the life of the OEM filterhead considerably. It helps keep the air out and if you do develop a leak it will be grossly obvious.

The problem with biodiesel in the winter is that tallows/high gel point esters can precipitate out and wax your filter no matter what concentration it is blended in. I make my own with WVO. Even though I'm very careful there is always going to be some hamburger grease/bacon grease/ chicken fat in it.

The KJ stays in the heat at night but sits outside 2-3 hours in the morning while she cases her mail. She had it go into limp mode two different times on very cold mornings. That was with all OEM stuff. It has not happened since the upgrades. Recirc is a good thing in the winter time!

Clint

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

geordi: What kind of processor have you got setup, if any at all? If I didn't live in this blasted condo with all its regulations (and problems), I would have already set up an Appleseed processor, made out of an old hot water heater. I am grateful that the NC Piedmont Biofuels Co-Op has been selling B100 for 3.50 since 2004. Back in 2004, it was more than a dollar over D2. I signed up last year when I got the TDI, and it was about 50 to 70 cents more. Now it's 25 to 35 cents cheaper! I realize not everyone is this fortunate, but it is worth investigating the availability and pricing of locally made fuels right now. Carboys are cheap, and it may be worth the 40 mile drive to pick up cheap fuel as opposed to seeing what the corner store's new price will be come monday morning. I drive 45 miles with about 15 containers (5 gal each) to Moncure, NC from Raleigh to get WVO B100 for the oil lanters (in case of power outage, we also have hand-crank charging LED lights and candles) and the cars. In a pinch, I have an old Kero heater that I'll throw a new wick in and use B100 for indoor heat. You get quite hungry when your heater's fumes smell like McDonalds!

Clint: Good info on the cold start. I've also seen chicken fat bio turn to chicken fat jello in jugs, but knock on wood, not in the TDI's fuel system. The Jeep has just crested 130 miles with us (on two tanks; dealer didn't fill it up all the way -- the nozzle clicked off and they hung it up, didn't let the foam settle). We just saw the fuel needle move around 79mi, and that made me smile. I can't believe that a KJ can be more fuel efficient than a sedan, but I'm so glad that it can be!

On the notation of waxing fuel in the system... the very last filter I replaced had what looked like wax beads in it, on my TDI. I am not certain they are wax beads, being a B50 mix, but I do know that one pump got some watered down Diesel fuel mixed into the bio. It was that very tank I filled up at, and as a result my fuel filter was toasted the next day. They said that it appeared that fungus was growing, but it wasn't fungus in the supply tank it was something else. For those who are concerned about the quality of my fuel, the company I purchase from has just signed a contract to supply B100 to Europe. I believe they're the only cooperative that meets with EU and US EPA standards for Biodiesel -- which is something to talk about in my book. TDIClub has basically stopped ridiculing my decision, since VW TDIs in Europe are warrantied to run B100, US vehicles are limited to 5%. I'm using what Europe's using, I just have a different emissions system. This is why I feel more confident about the CRD running on it.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:50 pm

As I've said before, crappy fuel is crappy fuel, regardless if it's biod or dino.

I've had more problems with cruddy #2 dino clogging my fuel filters (rust, dirt, water, etc) than I've had with the commercially available B20.

Read thru the statements by the engine manufacturers regarding using biod in their engines - it's FUEL QUALITY they're concerned with - concrete standards, water contamination, glycerin content, etc - not that it's biod instead of dino.

If you've got access to European spec/quality biod, I'll wager that you'll have zero problems running it in the CRD.

Cowpie1 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:26 pm

Regarding the Racor filter setups... Is a 45 GPM a little overkill for the CRD? Would not a 215 (15gpm) or a 230 (30gpm) filter ok to use? Would fit the Liberty compartment a little better and from little I have checked out, all of these have the same features except flow rate.

Not trying to upset the apple cart, just trying to look at the broad picture and not sure I need the same filter size and flow rate of a larger diesel on my CRD.

Comments?

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:55 pm

KC:

My processor is gone now, it's been about 3 years since I last brewed any. But if I set up a new one, I think I'm going to be building a better design, maybe invest in one of those cone-bottom tanks or build my own. I've got a welder, so I can build anything I need to. I never used a heater or washed my fuel, but I filtered the heck out of it, at several stages of production. I still have some VERY old samples, and none of them have turned green or cloudy... That tells me I've got some pretty good stuff. Also, I ran my WVO B100 for 30k miles continuously through my Jetta, and then 60k of regular dino after that until I sold it. Not any problems with the B100, but I firmly believe that the ULSD ate one of the internal seals of the pump. It needed to be rebuilt before I could sell the car.

My system was pretty simple in design, I'm certainly not adverse to paying for a quality processor as long as it results in a NEAT setup... Mine had issues with leaks occasionally, but it was also a learning curve. My final design was actually the third processor I had built, and I learned a lot.
BTW: My total cost for that third design: less than $200, including a BIG pump, and most of the cost was the pump. The rest was pipe and fittings from Home Depot. I might get a different pump if I do it again, something that can generate a bit more pressure so that the filters can actually work. But I'm also going to switch to a different type of filter, one that doesn't need disposable elements.

UFO · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:51 pm

Cowpie1 wrote:

Regarding the Racor filter setups... Is a 45 GPM a little overkill for the CRD? Would not a 215 (15gpm) or a 230 (30gpm) filter ok to use? Would fit the Liberty compartment a little better and from little I have checked out, all of these have the same features except flow rate.

Not trying to upset the apple cart, just trying to look at the broad picture and not sure I need the same filter size and flow rate of a larger diesel on my CRD.

Comments?

You have the room, so why not use the biggest one that will fit? You'll get less restriction and longer filter life.

cntrline36 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:42 pm

retmil46,
Ditto on the crappy fuel. When I do have to buy #2 dino I try to pick a high volume place. Even if I have to wait in line or pay a little more.

Cowpie 1
Truthfully, the reason I went with the 245 was because of the nice layout that eurekaboy had and at the moment I didn't have time for further research. I had been looking at the other options too but hadn't got down to brass tacks yet. I'm also in whole hearted agreement with what UFO said. Especially since I make my own fuel. The one thing I know after spending a little over a half century on this planet is I sometimes make mistakes. The bigger filter gives more margin for error. I need big margins.

Clint

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:47 am

From what I've heard from one other CRD owner, that has a Racor unit installed and has done some research on their website, Racor actually recommends going with double the GPH rating over stock if you're running biod thru one of their filter setups - ie, if 30 GPH would be adequate for stock fuel flow rates, bump it up to 60 GPH for running biod.

Same gent as above put a Racor 490 unit in his - 90 GPH - and it fit without any problems.

From what I remember, 35 GPH would be the MINIMUM size you'd want to put on this beast, using both Racor and Stanadyne sizing criteria, at stock power levels.

Nothing wrong with the other idea either - go as big as you can as far as flow rate. Matter of fact, if you're going to run a single fuel filter of 5 microns or less, I'd encourage you to go that route - the bigger the filter, the longer it will be until it clogs to the point requiring replacement.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

More wonderfully useful information!

So last night Libby (i've decided to start calling it Libby) decided to act up. I drove from Raleigh to Chapel Hill (46 miles) at 70MPH. I have to say I am so amazed that 2200rpm is 70MPH... amazed! Anyway, I parked the Jeep for about 45 min, then came back with the steam cleaner I was to borrow and loaded it up. She fired up, reverse was fine, but I barely made it over the hill at the end of the driveway. Not knowing what else to do (I was having a brain fart) I floored it and crawled at 30MPH about 4 miles down the road to a gas station with canopy lights. I stopped in, popped the hood, released the little button for the bleeder valve on the fuel filter housing and started pumping. I never saw fuel squirt out, but when the button got difficult too push down I shut the hood, fired her up and we were off on the road again. I was like... wow that could have been really bad. No street lights, middle of no where country road, it's 37F outside, and my cell phone has no coverage... no a good place for a "problem." However, Carmax got us an appt for 1:30 today. The fuel filter housing will be replaced, and they will fix the leaking oil out of the drain plug (might be stripped?), along with checking the airbag off light for the passenger seat (it does not say lit when no one is sitting in the seat), and the parking brake adjustment. Overall, normal wear and tear items.

I do love that at 240mi it was sitting at a half-tank. I can't believe it goes 400 miles on a tank.

calcrd · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:47 pm

check it out !

http://www.bq9000.org/companies/producers.aspx

Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

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