Turbo installed... NOW what's the matter?

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:26 am

Ok, I've got the new turbo in, and I waited to do it until I had the gauges too. I wasn't about to put it in blind, and risk such an expensive part.

Logged all of the codes, cleared them out (the intake air temp sender seems to be dying, it was reading the air at -40 when I cleared it the first time, and 140 the second!) It settled down to about 83 degrees (the actual outside temp is about 48) when the engine was running.

Now, about the engine. As I suspected, I have a GREAT Batmobile smokescreen right now. I also created a VERY nice oil slick behind the Jeep while it was idling for about 20 minutes or so and I was checking things out.

Here's what concerns me:

The engine was difficult to start, possibly b/c of a low battery from not being run in the last week+. But it tried to fire, and ran VERY rough for about 2-3 seconds (this is after idling for a while) before smoothing out. I hear what sounds like an rpm-related ticking sound. Not at the same speed as the engine, but about every half-second or so. Doesn't seem to be coming from anywhere near the turbo.

I connected up the AutoEnginuity software when I did a test drive, and had it monitor the oil pressure, intake air temp, boost pressure, and boost desired.

Oddly enough, the boost-desired and boost-actual were at about 15psi at 60mph, with just a light foot. I wouldn't have thought it would be that high all the time.

What is really bothering me is the oil pressure - it was only registering 3-4 psi according to the software. Could someone else with the AutoEnginuity software verify this please? Do I have an oil PUMP problem? And if I do... How the heck do I fix that? I'm not driving it again until this is solved. The dipstick is still registering normal oil levels, and the oil does NOT appear to be leaking from under the turbo - The turbo housing was nice and clean. The first place I found oil was from the flexible section of the exhaust, right where I would expect it from the blown turbo. Its gonna take a while for all of that to burn out.

Oh, one more thing: There were no idiot lights for the oil (not that I would expect any until the engine seizes) but there also were no codes relating to the oil.

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:56 am

I don't know much about the VM, but it sounds like you need a new pump. All CAT motors run between 20 and 80 psi. Lack of oil pressure could have possibly caused the bearing on the old turbo to burn up

onthehunt · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:23 am

It's best to check the oil psi with a manual gauge. There should be several places on the block to tap into. Just how low on oil did you run it when the turbo went?

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:28 am

The oil pump is on the front of the engine, behind the timing cover and behind yet another cover. It is gear driven off of the crankshaft by a direct gear (no idler). You pretty much get down to the short block to replace it.

At cold, the engine has 80+ psi of pressure, idling warm about 20-30 psi depending on age, wear, etc. Are you sure you didn't spin a bearing when it ran low on oil or otherwise do something else in the engine? You could also have a bad oil pressure sensor (I actually just had this problem on a development vehicle)

Ticking at half engine speed would be something in the top end of the motor, so I'd start listening around there. Hard to start I wouldn't be too worried about unless it's doing it continually now with a fully charged battery.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:47 am

Yea, I'm thinking that the noise could also be a symptom of the engine cleaning itself out of the old oil from the failed turbo.

It never ran OUT of oil that I know of, just low. A full gallon brought it right to the full mark on the dipstick. I don't know what "spinning a bearing" means, but what I'm looking for is confirmation one way or the other on what kind of pressure sensor the engine has.

Can the pressure sensor actually report live PSI, or is it just a dumb on/off idiot light trigger? The reading from AutoEnginuity is ambiguous, and leads me to think it is one of the dumb connector types.

I'm certainly not adverse to adding a mechanical oil pressure gauge, but I would need suggestions on where to install it. Could one be plumbed into one of those oil-bypass pucks that installs between the filter and the filter base?

tonycrd · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:01 am

Take ( if you can reach it ) the oil light on/off switch out of the block, then tap into there with a manual reader.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:39 am

That sounds like a good idea. At the moment, the ticking sound is just a bit louder than the rest of the engine, but it's raining again, so no more work once again. I am so tired of rain, and broken cars that won't be diagnosed. The sound seems to be coming from the top of the engine. If this was a gasser, I might suspect a lifter.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:41 am

Oh, and as an added bit of fun, I dropped one of the two bolts for the oil return line from the bottom of the turbo, and I think it went INSIDE of the frame rail into the nice big hole that is only on the TOP of the rail. *&@%*&%*#^%$*!!!!!!!!!!!!! And of course, I can't get a wrench onto the other one to ensure that it is solid-tight, it's barely finger tight at the moment. The socket just keeps slipping off.

mackruss · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:43 am

I've had the "ticking sound" from day one and assumed that this was normal for a diesel although more evident when i was using a synthetic blended oil and quieter now with Mobil 1 0-40W full synthetic.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:27 pm

geordi wrote:

Oh, and as an added bit of fun, I dropped one of the two bolts for the oil return line from the bottom of the turbo, and I think it went INSIDE of the frame rail into the nice big hole that is only on the TOP of the rail. *&@%*&%*#^%$*!!!!!!!!!!!!! And of course, I can't get a wrench onto the other one to ensure that it is solid-tight, it's barely finger tight at the moment. The socket just keeps slipping off.

Most auto parts stores sell a "parts retriever' tool - a flexible metal rod/wire with a magnet on the end. Also, if you have skid plates, you can drop the front one far enough without removing it to check and see if it went into the front skid plate - remove the back two bolts, then loosen the front two up enough so that the back of the plate hangs down far enough for a good look-see. Found a tube of silicone grease and a mud daubers nest in mine.

Have you tried using a universal/swivel joint with the socket?

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:50 pm

Yea, I was using a wobble-head extension. As for the parts retriever (woof!) First I need to know where the dang thing went. It doesn't matter really, it looks like I'm going to be going to the dealer anyway for a new bolt when I get the oil pump (if I get one) so I'll just pick up a couple of those bolts.

So can anyone else with Autoenginuity verify the readout of the oil pressure? That's my biggest item right now. I *REALLY REALLY* don't want to take the front of the engine off if I don't have to.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:56 pm

Hydraulic lifters require sufficient oil pressure not to clatter loudly and in some cases cause the engine to run rough. If you are running smooth and normal chances are the real oil pressure is OK.
Hooking up a mechanical gauge is the best test for oil pressure. A little corrosion, oil, or ice in the plug going to the sensor will make it lie to your ECM and have the same information reported by your scanner. I could go on for many boring hours ragging about poor connections causing misinformation going to an ECM or PLC, but I will spare you all that and just keep logging more Hertz points and frequent flier miles.

If you have a buddy in the car repair business, WURTH has a good product for cleaning dirty or corroded connections, I have cleared a lot of code faults with the stuff over the years. I am sure there are other products that work well too and if any one knows, please pass it on to all of us.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:13 pm

Yea, that was my suspicion too, but confirmation is always nice. The only thing that is bothering me is the ticking noise. The rest of the engine does seem to be operating normally, and the EGT gauge is working great. Would a reading of 1k degrees at 60mph steady-cruise (that drops off quite rapidly when I lift off) be considered normal EGTs?

The sheer number of electronic sensors in this engine boggles the mind. Of course garbage in, garbage out on the sensors.

UFO · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:22 pm

I support measuring the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge too. There may be a software translation issue, as I don't believe you'd still have an engine running pressure that low.

And the ticking may just be a sticky injector. Run some good biodiesel or injector cleaner through and see how that changes things.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:58 pm

I'd tend to suspect an exhaust leak, as the most recent task involved the exhaust system

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:23 pm

gmctd wrote:

I'd tend to suspect an exhaust leak, as the most recent task involved the exhaust system

X2

onthehunt · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:57 pm

You added a gallon of oil to bring it to the full mark. That means you only had 2.5 qts of oil in engine. I hope it's an exhaust leak.

tonycrd · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:25 pm

Not to scare the $%$ out of you but this ticking noise goes louder as you accelarate?

Then it's possibly a piston rod to cranckshaft bearing that's on it's way out. That would explain the low oil pressure.

See this:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=37249

what scared me too is that you had to add a gallon of oil, so you would have had less then 2 qts in the sump...that's a massive leak. If pressure dropped to minimum when your turbo blew you may now have more trouble then just the turbo.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:26 pm

The ticking didn't get louder, but it did increase in speed with engine RPM increase.

As for the oil level - I know exactly where the oil went, and I'm pretty sure why. This deduction was pointed out to me by my family, and I had one of those "DOH!" moments when they did - The oil was PUMPED out into the exhaust when the turbo failed. I was doing about 70mph when it failed, and coasted / lightly powered about 3/4 of a mile before I realized why I had such a power loss. Plenty of time for the turbo oil line to discharge that oil into the exhaust, especially if it's pushing 60psi. I did try and cap that line when I was working on the engine and wanted to blow out the manifold... And got an oil shower for my trouble. I should have remembered that. I didn't think the flow was that great at the time, but I now have a pressure testing kit, and will report back shortly with the results. This will answer it once and for all about the pump, but I'm leaning toward "pump works, sensor bad in a REALLY bad coincidence" right now.

There were / are no codes that I have seen talking about low oil pressure, and only when the engine was OFF, did the oil pressure light come on. I will be investigating an oil pressure gauge mounted with one of those spin-on filter pucks (like for a bypass filter) in the near future.

More info: While I agree that there was a lot of oil to add to the engine, it was basically idling while it was bleeding, and I shut it down without ever seeing the oil pressure light. It was never driven (or even run for more than 4 seconds) before I added the oil back in. Someone mentioned that their engine ticked while using a blended oil. What is in there right now is Shell Rotella... NOT SYNTH b/c I wasn't about to pour in $50 worth of oil and watch it pump into the exhaust until I knew what the problem was. So that could also be a cause. A fresh oil change will be happening in the near future, as soon as I know it is operational again. Maybe the engine just needs to re-equate itself with the oil after being low, but not out. At least, that is my sincere hope.

More to come shortly.

UFO · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:51 pm

If your oil pressure light goes out after starting, I suspect your scan gauge is in error.

Turbo installed... NOW what's the matter?

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