Aftermarket CRD TC/Tranny/TCM Info

ribbon · **Posted:** Tue May 12, 2009 10:49 am

a hemi tc will not work for a crd. the stall is diff.

crdjon · **Posted:** Tue May 12, 2009 12:08 pm

ribbon wrote:

a hemi tc will not work for a crd. the stall is diff.

Of course the stall is different, that's why i'm doing it..... just like the suncoast..... and I have checked this with the chrysler techs and they quite sure it will work too. The TC I mentioned is the most aggressive hookup in the line of TCs and that translates to lower stall, the year of the TC I quoted has all the upgraded internals. We expect the stall the lower by around 500 RPM but ill know more about that soon.

At the moment my engine is peaking torque around 1800 rpm but current TC is stalling out at 2300 rpm or so. I want to use up all the torque so I want a TC that gives me max Torque multiplication where the engine peeks. Ill let ya know how I go.

Larry R. · **Joined:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:35 am **Posts:** 92

CRDJON, Low stall is good, I am planning on doing the same thing. How soon do you plan put that t.c. in? Looking forward to hearing the results from you!

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Tue May 12, 2009 7:22 pm

All general OEMs measure the torque converter in "K" factor which associates both engine torque and stall speed to give the K factor.

last time i checked, the hemi TC has a higher K factor than the CRD TC. Because the engine makes the same/more torque as the hemi but at a lower RPM, it is going to stall higher than the OEM CRD converter.

I wish you the best of luck with your endeavor.

crdjon · **Posted:** Tue May 12, 2009 9:51 pm

Larry R. wrote:

CRDJON, Low stall is good, I am planning on doing the same thing. How soon do you plan put that t.c. in? Looking forward to hearing the results from you!

Hi Larry,

As soon as it arrives, could be a few weeks. The stock TC has got very little hookup and looking at the pics of the vane angles its no wonder.

Based on MR Mopars comments ill check again, however, I have been working with the proper people and I do believe the internals of the TC I'm gonnna try is actually close to that which is in the Suncoast TC, which lowers stall. Oem is just not as strong as the Suncoast, but the stock TC is rated around 560 NM I think which is improvement on the one I got, which by the way after 40000 kilometres without towing is acting like its had it, quite a poor effort really.

So I could probably fit a rubber band and it would be an improvement. Wont take much to be better than what was provided in the first place.

Good thing is that Ill have a TC or two to try and also have the original which the local boys can rebuild/match/ditch and match to any spec.

Im gonna investigate the TC that the commander rfe uses because chatting with a fellow the other day, he mentioned a Commander tc being installed in his KJ crd and the report was also good. He said software was also updated (I think it got the quick learn and TC initialising procedure) and he gets an extra 150 kilometres out of a tank of fuel and said it drove nicely, reduced rpms between gears, there are probably a few possiblities.

I'm not a fan of that slipping slushing idea. Perhaps Mr Mopar would help us out here with his obvious knowledge with the K numbers for the KJ crds and what might provide a better hookup. I looked up KJ torque converter in the dictionary the other and it said "see KY"

UPDATE:
Currently my stock TC is stalling around 2300 rpm.

ribbon · **Posted:** Fri May 15, 2009 10:05 am

let us know how it goes

chrispitude · **Posted:** Fri May 15, 2009 3:11 pm

crdjon wrote:

I have the HEMI TC on order and should arrive in the next week or so, part number PN04736587AC from the 5.7l hemi 07 (revised and upgraded). Several Dealership service department guys have suggested that after the install that a "Quick Learn" be performed on your Liberty/Cherokee, and will also need to ask to have a (Torque Convertor Break-in).

Can someone advise how a "Quick Learn" is performed?

- Chris

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

chrispitude wrote:

crdjon wrote:

I have the HEMI TC on order and should arrive in the next week or so, part number PN04736587AC from the 5.7l hemi 07 (revised and upgraded). Several Dealership service department guys have suggested that after the install that a "Quick Learn" be performed on your Liberty/Cherokee, and will also need to ask to have a (Torque Convertor Break-in).

Can someone advise how a "Quick Learn" is performed?

- Chris

They reset the computer's parameters (it is supposed to learn as you drive and as things change in the transmission). I believe you can reset it by unplugging the battery for a few minutes.

crdjon · **Posted:** Fri May 15, 2009 10:28 pm

Pablo wrote:

chrispitude wrote:

crdjon wrote:

I have the HEMI TC on order and should arrive in the next week or so, part number PN04736587AC from the 5.7l hemi 07 (revised and upgraded). Several Dealership service department guys have suggested that after the install that a "Quick Learn" be performed on your Liberty/Cherokee, and will also need to ask to have a (Torque Convertor Break-in).

Can someone advise how a "Quick Learn" is performed?

- Chris

They reset the computer's parameters (it is supposed to learn as you drive and as things change in the transmission). I believe you can reset it by unplugging the battery for a few minutes.

The battery disconnect sort of works from my experience, from what I can glean though, the proprietary scantools can initiate this and has other functions that cause the computer(s) to perform tests and activating various components in the various components of the systems. The TCM is a little bit of a mystery to me.

The chrysler people I spoke to the other day said that in addition to the quick learn a prior "TC Break in Procedure" should be done when installing a new TC.

My new converter not here yet, looking at the angles on the vanes of the new TC (more angular than stock) it should have more hookup between gears that should mean better stall characteristics, increased fluid drive I hope. Got some queries in with some TC rebuilders at the moment and they are looking into the internals of the TC I mentioned in an earlier post.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2009 12:29 pm

Quick-learn is performed with Starscan on '06's, DRBIII on '05's - otherwise, disconnect the batt cable, short them together, reconnect - go for a normal drive ~30mins, no rapid accell starts, just normal stops\starts, TCM will relearn - rapid accell starts relearn will result in TCM relearning when normal driving is resumed, much like the relearn when towing, then the relearn after removing the trailer

The Suncoast TC for the KJ CRD is the stock Hemi TC with a billet front cover to handle the stresses of drag-racing, not required for the KJ CRD - a stock Hemi TC is ~$300 new from the dealer, ~$200 new online - make sure the TC was made after NOV05 to get the upgraded version which will not disintegrate internally, usually rev AC - lowers stall by ~500rpm, excellent for the KJ CRD - more info (with pics for those that can't read) in CRD TECH section

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2009 3:03 pm

GMCTD,

This is the first I have heard about suggesting we use a Hemi TC in our CRDs, without modification. I looked in the "Tech" section and could not find anything beyond the Suncoast related info.

Can you enlighten us further?

Thanks,

DOC

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2009 5:37 pm

Ok, several things:

Pics in HAYSTACK thread in CRD TECH - I had never previously suggested using the stock Hemi TCC, until someone pushed the correct mem-stack button: all 545RFE TC's were modified ~NOV05 to correct the disintegration problem in the earlier versions - that modification made them reliable for use in a street vehicle - you can use the CRD TCC in the Hemi to get higher stall - you can use the Hemi TCC in the KJ to get lower stall - the pump is the same - the stator hub is the same - the input shaft is the same - as can be seen in the pics, the impeller (and turbine) vane curvature is way more agressive in the Hemi version, which will result in lower stall for the KJ CRD - both versions use 4-bolt hookup, the locating hub is identical in size - thus, no reason not to use the lower stall version to improve KJ performance prior to lockup, at considerably less expense - lockup is, of course, 1:1 direct drive, like a manual trans clutch, so there will be no improvement after lockup

As with the Suncoast version, you will need to keep an eye on transmission fluid temps at each stop - or, shift to NEUTRAL at each stop - the increased hookup (lower stall) will create more heat at stop conditions, tho less heat in all gear ranges while rolling than the KJ CRD version

The 545RFE pump modification corrected input cover sealing deficiencies, nothing else - if your '05 or very early '06 KJ has the original TCC, or was not upgraded with a TCC replacement, you will need to upgrade to the modified pump because the original parts have been purged from stock, no longer available - if you were F37'ed, likely you have the revised TCC, pump and front cover - the dealer worksheet should be referenced for specifics

NOTE: Whichever pump you have will need new front cover and seals for the job to prevent leaks at the TCC pump-drive hub - reallybigproblem: original pump, cover, and seals have been obsoleted and purged from stock - can sometimes be found on eBay, p\n4799609 will be stamped on the cover, 4617919 is the cover-to-pump-hub seal

The 68RFE behind the Cummins uses many of the same 545RFE parts, but shaft diameters and dimensions along the shafts are much larger, so they will not swap into your 545RFE - that includes the 13" TCC and pump\seals

The 545RFE pump is a dual-gear dual pump - uses both pumps when rpms are low and additional fluid\pressure is required - as rpm increases and the primary pump exceeds demand, the secondary pump is bypassed until rpm decreases and demand exceeds capacity, whereupon bypass is closed, bringing secondary pump back on-line - overall line pressure can be increased by installing a 2kohm resistor across the pressure sensor

And remember: this is not the radiation-hardened Suncoast TCC, but it will survive same conditions as the 11/05-revised KJ TCC

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2009 9:34 pm

GMCTD,

Thanks as always for your contributions. The recalls on our '05 CRD were done on 12-18-06 (F23, F31, F37) just before we bought it with 17K on it. The work order under F37 itemizes the torque converter, 5 qts of fluid and a label. It looks like a pump was NOT included.

Would a new pump be essential to install the latest Hemi TC?

(Dealer has agreed to install a Suncoast TC as part of a warranty repair of a leaking rear main seal. No charge [$100 Ded] as long as I supply the TC. However, unless the existing pump shows signs of failure, which is unlikely, they want a $1000, parts and labor, to install the upgraded pump.) So, you can see why I am interested in potentially NOT going with the newer/better pump. A Hemi TC looks VERY attractively priced.

Since we have a DCJ "premium" 7 yr/100K warranty, they would replace the pump later if it starts to fail.

Your thoughts?

Thanks as always,

DOC

BTW, two tubes of "Dr. Tranny" have lowered the frequency of the 55 MPH shudder when going uphill (or towing) with InMotion ECU installed, but have not really helped. I think that the lower frequency makes it feel a little less "violent", but it still is not something I would want to have to constantly "drive around" on a long trip towing a 4500 lb trailer.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2009 10:33 pm

Replacing the TC requires replacing the pump cover and seal - doubt that they have any originals in stock, only the upgraded versions, meaning they'd need to replace the pump, also - otherwise, the original pump is identically functional and would present no problem but for the availability of seals specific to the original design - the Hemi 545RFE pump was upgraded for the same reason(s)

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2009 6:11 pm

A few words on 'T\C break-in procedure' -

Normally, when you get a new T\C, you also get new taillites, new windshield wipers, new doorlocks, new license plate brackets, new fender flares, new suspension bushings, new motor mounts, new marquee badges, new radio, new wheels, new paint, new bod........well........... you get my drift, eh - after the recommended 500mi break-in period, you can begin (ab)using your new vehicle as you desire - I would think a 'T\C break-in procedure' would mean not thrashing it for a few days, allowing various and sundry components to 'run-in', settle out, become acclimatized, as it were...............................

mOlson · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2009 10:58 am

Any updates on how well the stock TC works vs. the Suncoast? Not sure in reading through all of this if anyone posting here has actually used the OEM Hemi TC yet.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2009 11:37 am

To my knowledge at this time, noone has yet done so, tho CRDJON downunder has ordered and is expecting his new Hemi t\c anytime now, and will then install it, per'aps with show'n'tell...................

NJCRD · **Posted:** Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:09 pm

I see some threads that if you install the SUNCOAST you will need to shift into neutral while stopped at a light or if in traffic?
Can someone enlighten me? I am close to ordering the TQ and shift kits and all the other crap that seems to make things shift smooth and keep the shudder away.
Has anyone gone the alternative route as started in this thread by using an aftermarket performance converter other then the Suncoast?
I think this was mentioned as well, but is this over kill? Thinking of the stage 2.
http://sharadon.com/v-web/productpage/images/sptrans.jpg

http://sharadon.com/sdparts.htm[url]
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gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:26 pm

The 545RFE 5sp trans in the KJ is identical to the 545RFE in the 5.7L Hemi V8 Ram trucks, no differences - butcept: they get a huge external a-o heat exchanger up front, we get a smallish kiddie-version in the cramped quarters amongst the radiator, charge-air cooler, and air conditioner condenser coil - not even good for increased performance - the Suncoast TC is a stock Hemi TC which has 4-500rpm lower stall speed than the KJ version, but modified for drag-racing the Hemi's - lower stall speed = greater hydraulic coupling = greater heat into the trans fluid - therefore, we must needs shift into NEUTRAL in traffic conditions at stop lites and stop signs to prevent overheating the transmission - adding an auxilliary cooler helps, but real estate is limited, therefore not as easy an addition as other vehicles - also, no additional internal equipment is required unless your trans is hi-mileage and needing a rebuild, then opt for the Red Eagle clutches and Kolene steels that come in the premium rebuild kits if heavy-duty towing is in your future - just remember: yer KJ chassis ain't designed\equipped for no HD towing - get a Dodge Ram Cummins setup fer those chores

chrispitude · **Posted:** Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:59 am

I never drove it differently than stock and I had no problems - even on hot days in stop-and-go traffic while pulling a trailer. I'm not saying that what gmctd is saying isn't true, only that I didn't make any changes to my driving style and I never had the transmission temperature light go on. I think it's probably a good idea more than an absolute necessity (as many things are).

- Chris

Aftermarket CRD TC/Tranny/TCM Info

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