WVO and #2 Diesel mix?

hankdz · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Does anyone have any experience using straight, strained and clean WVO mixed with #2 Diesel rather than straight #2 or bio-Diesel? I don't like the idea of making my own bio-Diesel and I haven't located any within 70 miles of our location.
I had a 1983 Buick 4.3 liter V-6 Diesel for 23 years. It, of course, had none of the gizmos that are attendant to the CRD. It was a naturally aspirated diesel that just ran, and ran until parts location became a problem. I used a mixture of vegetable oil and Diesel for fuel. The mixture was 40% vegetable oil and 60% Diesel. It ran in all kinds of weather and temperatures with no starting problems and no gelling problems. If I couldn't get WVO when I was traveling, I bought 5 gallon jugs of cooking oil from Costco or Sam's Club and mixed it with Diesel.
I am interested whether anyone has tried such mixture in the CRD and if so at what ratio of vegetable oil to Diesel oil?
Thanks for any assistance.
Hank Dz

dgeist · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:28 pm

Hi, Hank. In general, I think you're going to get words of caution when it comes to WVO and the CRD. Obviously, the oil is quite a bit more viscous than bio or #2 and with a high-pressure common-rail and tight tolerances in the injectors, having WVO is (IMHO) asking for problems. granted, mixing it with #2 in a low enough percentage might run fine, but I'd hate to take that chance when B100 is known to run with no (verifiable) adverse effects.

Out of curiousity, what's the aversion to making your own Bio?

Dan

dkenny · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:01 pm

not finding any because you looking to buy or to make?
to make..who all you need in WVO, a caustic and methanol,

you're not that from from Britsol ..I think you should be able to find methanol there if not closer
WVO---any restruants in town the fry foods?
caustic - this the easiest to find..drain cleaner..chemical supply places.. NaOH or KOH

your about 4 hours from where I live..so finding everything you need is closer than that.

-dkenny

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:18 pm

I have run quite a bit of blended WVO when I lived further south. If you keep the blend under 25% WVO, you should have no problems. However if you go over that amount without some kind of fuel heater, there will be problems with smoking and possibly soot buildup in the VGT nozzle, causing stuck vanes.

A large pre-filter of some sort is a must if you are running any percentage of blend. Even if you filter before adding veg to your tank, it will always grow things in warm weather, which will plug the OE filter in short order.

CRDs tend to get a lot of blow-by and fuel making it's way into the crankcase, so frequent oil changes are required if running veg.

dkenny · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:03 pm

sorry dgeist..I missed your well put question..

why not make you own..
if you need help its not that far away..just ask..

-dkenny

CRDMiller · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:49 am

nursecosmo, what do you mean crd's have a lot of fuel in the crank?

I've never had even .1% fuel in my uoa's. And i don't think I've seen many if any that did?

Maby your WVO mix is not atomizing properly in the piston cavity, because of it's viscosity. Think it cant happen? it does. Larger droplets take longer to combust, and as you pointed out we have a lot of blow by (relatively) there's your contamination. WVO could potentially cause spikes that could even blow the tips off of our injectors.

You should not mix wvo and diesel. Our injection system is not designed to handle this.

That said, if it works, great. In the big picture it probably not having that great of a impact on your system.

vegiH · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:48 am

Back again(wife and I just had surgery,her liver,my back)so again we touch on this...........I will lay this out there.............crds are expensive,so do it right,either commerical Bio-d or if your confidient make your own.I am not very computer savy,but if someone can tell me how to down load a disk into the tech section I will post my WVO conversion for ALL................I know in the past there is 1 or 2 people still waiting for a disk...I am truely sorry but my health has not been good.So if any one wants to give this old hillbilly a hand I will post it up so if you want to convert CORRECTLY you can........................Knowledge is wealth,and its time to share it............H

UFO · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:20 pm

I want to make it clear, as most of the postings are just dancing about the issue.

Do not start your rig on vegetable oil....EVER! And that includes diesel mixes. The unburned fuel will polymerize in your rings and your engine oil. Do not do as the president of Golden Fuel Systems did and run cold oil or WVO diluted in diesel. He cooked his engine from lack of lubrication caused by sump oil sludge from vegetable oil, and you will too.

I'm sure even our resident greasers will agree that 2 tank WVO systems are required, switching should only happen on a hot engine, and your purges are long enough and do not contaminate your starting fuel tank with VO.

hankdz · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:31 pm

Thanks to all who responded.
Re: Location. Bristol is 200 miles from us; Roanoke is 70 miles; Charlottesville is 60 miles; and Lynchburg VA is 25 miles. Some maps put Monroe VA near Wytheville, not so. The Monroe where we live is in Amherst County and we are located up against the Blue Ridge, about 15 miles from US 29 where other maps put Monroe.
Re: Aversion to making bio Diesel myself. It's the heated caustic and poisonous methanol combination with the attendant safety questions that tend to make me not want to become a manufacturer of small amounts of bio Diesel. I have no objetion to others who want to do it themselves. I have no argument with others' choices.
Re: Sources of WVO. Yes , I know the sources nearby. I used them when I had the Buick. That is not in question.
Re: Those who actually have tried the WVO - Diesel mix method. Thanks for the info. If I do decide to try, I think I will start with clean unused vegetable oil from Sam's or Costco to get a feel for the appropriate mix. Someone noted that 25% WVO should be the max. I will start with something less to see how it goes.
Another question:
I have not read any information stating that bio Diesel should not be mixed with Petro Diesel. Every indication I have from publications I've read do not provide such a caution, nor do they explain any reason for not mixing them. Will someone please explain why not to mix the two fuels? This, of course, is for my education if I can ever find any bio Diesel to try. Which also begs the question, how low should the fuel in the tank be before introducing bio Diesel?
Thanks.
Hank

UFO · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:41 pm

Hank, read my response again regarding blow-by on a cold engine. There are many many cases of engine failure from improper VO use, even on IDI engines. Either spend the money to do a WVO system RIGHT, or spend the money to make biodiesel. If you don't invest, you will not reap the benefits only the failures.

hankdz · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:04 pm

Thanks to all who responded.
Re: Location. Bristol is 200 miles from us; Roanoke is 70 miles; Charlottesville is 60 miles; and Lynchburg VA is 25 miles. Some maps put Monroe VA near Wytheville, not so. The Monroe where we live is in Amherst County and we are located up against the Blue Ridge, about 15 miles from US 29 where other maps put Monroe.
Re: Aversion to making bio Diesel myself. It's the heated caustic and poisonous methanol combination with the attendant safety questions that tend to make me not want to become a manufacturer of small amounts of bio Diesel. I have no objetion to others who want to do it themselves. I have no argument with others' choices.
Re: Sources of WVO. Yes , I know the sources nearby. I used them when I had the Buick. That is not in question.
Re: Those who actually have tried the WVO - Diesel mix method. Thanks for the info. If I do decide to try, I think I will start with clean unused vegetable oil from Sam's or Costco to get a feel for the appropriate mix. Someone noted that 25% WVO should be the max. I will start with something less to see how it goes.
Another question:
I have not read any information stating that bio Diesel should not be mixed with Petro Diesel. Every indication I have from publications I've read do not provide such a caution, nor do they explain any reason for not mixing them. Will someone please explain why not to mix the two fuels? This, of course, is for my education if I can ever find any bio Diesel to try. Which also begs the question, how low should the fuel in the tank be before introducing bio Diesel?
Thanks.
Hank

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:14 pm

CRDMiller wrote:

nursecosmo, what do you mean crd's have a lot of fuel in the crank?

I've never had even .1% fuel in my uoa's. And i don't think I've seen many if any that did?

Maby your WVO mix is not atomizing properly in the piston cavity, because of it's viscosity. Think it cant happen? it does. Larger droplets take longer to combust, and as you pointed out we have a lot of blow by (relatively) there's your contamination. WVO could potentially cause spikes that could even blow the tips off of our injectors.

You should not mix wvo and diesel. Our injection system is not designed to handle this.

That said, if it works, great. In the big picture it probably not having that great of a impact on your system.

Well duh!! Of course WVO does not atomize right in high % blends. That is exactly why I said that frequent oil changes are an absoulte necesity if running Veg. This thread clearly shows that CRDs have a lot of fuel washing, approaching concentrations up to 2%, and these UOAs don't reflect how much diesel has evaporated from the crankcase oil. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... sc&start=0 In the case of high % veg blending, the concentrations will likely be higher because of poor atomazation at startup, although most UOAs won't test for the presence of veg.

As to blowing the tips off of the injectors: hogwash. These injectors are made to handle fuel presures of up to 26000 PSI. I've never heard of an injector tip being blown off from veg, but I have known of hydraulic injector tips being blown off from D2 compined with old age.

Hankdz: In this forum, you will find all the information you could ever want to know on the subject of veg blending. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 9751014871 On the linked forum there have been literally millions of miles traveled succesfully on veg blends. You will need to take precautions against certain problems if you do decide to run veg, but it can be done. Don't pay any atention to all of the naysayers who simply repeat things which they have heard on the internet from other naysayers. Get your info from those who have actually done it. I have 83000 trouble free miles (except for plugged filters) on my CRD running all kinds of fuel which many said would destroy my engine a long time ago.

vegiH · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:52 pm

Yes GFS guy was a tool,yes you can torture YOUR crd in any way you want,Yes you MAY have good luck with blending,but you may also have bad luck.I Am a greaser,with 90K between two different rigs(my 2000 excursion vegistroke,and my CRD with one-off kit),my house also runs on both Bio-D and WVO (AG solutions b-150 boiler) and we have a Channing oil stove (bio-diesel) in our shop.I play both sides of the BIO_D and WVO fence............they both are good for different applications.........but ALL applications should be researched and done properly.If you want to convert to the alternative fuel lifestyle pick a application and stick with it.If you don't want to mess with chemicals for bio-d buy a BIO-PRO 180 for the cost of a injector job or broken rockers from polymersation its worth it.If you want to convert to WVO it can be done with your labor for between $1K and $2K depending on parts sourcing.If choose the latter of the two check out MY CRD on you tube under "WVO CRD" there are seven videos made by the man that built it before going back to IRAQ..............If that interests you We can get ALL the specs loaded up here on tech section.Please remember they aren't making anymore of these and it would be a shame to hear of anymore having a untimely death as the GOLDEN FUEL SYSTEMS CRD suffered........take this all with a grain of salt and let me know If I can help you with your WVO journey.............H

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:26 pm

I'm actually in the process of moving to Lynchburg from Savannah, so I haven't chimed in on this until now.

First: DO NOT BLEND IN THE SAME TANK. EVER. IN ANY CONCENTRATION.

I did this, and it did not end well on the VERY FIRST TANK. Luckily I didn't suffer anything other than a plugged filter, but it could have been a LOT worse.

The cost of screwing up your engine is FAR more than the cost to build a biodiesel reactor, and you do NOT need to worry about the chemicals. They are dangerous, yes. But a modest amount of care will keep you safe. I brewed over 1000 gallons in an open-topped drum in my garage (enclosed, but I had the big door open) in Florida without anything going boom. Simple external-band drum heaters can safely warm up the oil if you are so inclined. Washing is not needed, IF you properly titrate (easy with practice) and allow the WVO to properly settle. Oil and water don't mix, so don't expect to add water to remove water after it's biodiesel.

Other than that, I'd be happy to offer knowledge to a fellow CRD'er, and assistance when I have time for a small percentage of the B100. I'm that confident in the process that I would run it in my CRD without hesitation. My Jetta LOVED the stuff, and had (confirmed) new-engine compression when I sold it at 150k miles of me flogging it like a go-kart.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:36 pm

It should also be rememberd that the Golden Fuels conversion failure which we are all familiar with, was not running blended fuel. He had a marginaly heated system which ran, but the engine failure was because he refused to change his engine oil and it polymerized. Jellified engine oil = no lubrication.

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:20 pm

hankdz wrote:

I have not read any information stating that bio Diesel should not be mixed with Petro Diesel. Every indication I have from publications I've read do not provide such a caution, nor do they explain any reason for not mixing them. Will someone please explain why not to mix the two fuels? This, of course, is for my education if I can ever find any bio Diesel to try. Which also begs the question, how low should the fuel in the tank be before introducing bio Diesel?
Thanks.
Hank

Hank, petro-diesel (pretty much any type pump diesel) and fatty acid methyl esters (FAME), which is most of what composes an given volume of bio-diesel, mixes readily (think chocolate and peanut-butter, not oil and vinegar), so from a combustion/compatibility standpoint, there's no reason why not to blend good quality supplies of the two. Typically, the only reason to avoid mixing is if the percentage is uncontrolled or puts you over what your vehicle manufacturer will warranty or if you're driving in cold weather and are concerned about jelling. I had my fuel system jell on B100, but after diluting the bio to about b40 with regular pump diesel, the overall jell-point of the fuel was much lower and I had no further problems.

Granted, that's not an argument against mixing, just one against mixing too much when it's cold

Dan

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:18 pm

Dan, didn't anyone teach you that you don't mix frozen margaritas when it's gonna snow out? :lol:

Blends and cold don't "blend" well. Heh.

I think I see where a classic misunderstanding is happening here however. The terms Biodiesel and Waste Veggie Oil (WVO) are NOT referring to the same thing!

WVO is raw veggie oil. Soy, Canola, Peanut, animal fat renderings... Anything that is the raw feedstock from whatever source that is NOT a fuel-providing business. (restaurant, etc)

WVO is the catch-all term for whatever the feed might be, but it all comes down to one thing: It is THICK OIL that has had NOTHING done chemically to it. You don't want to use it directly in your CRD. EVER. There are some brave souls who have installed a second fuel tank, heated, in their CRDs. This is different, and does enable them to use WVO directly... With the dangers stated above.

BIODIESEL is NOT WVO anymore. It has been chemically converted to strip off the glycerin from the long Fatty Acid Molecular chains, leaving only the Esters. Esters burn, and taste yummy to our CRD engines. FAME is the acronym for Fatty Acid Methylated Esters which is the chemical name for the process and the result. Adding Acids and a Methyl Alcohol to the fat, effectively breaks the molecular chain by using the acid (NaOH) to catalyze the reaction, then the alcohol to "plug" the chain to prevent it from re-bonding with the glycerin.

The result of that long description is a liquid that has the exact same viscosity (Flow characteristics) as dino-diesel, instead of the thick sludge it started as.
True biodiesel can be mixed in ANY PERCENTAGE directly into your fuel tank with pump diesel, HOWEVER... If it is going to be colder than 50 degrees F out... I wouldn't go over a 40 percent Bio ratio. That would be known as B40. During the summer... Run B100 (pure) and enjoy giving OPEC the finger. Its fun, and your CRD loves the taste.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:58 am

geordi wrote:

WVO is the catch-all term for whatever the feed might be, but it all comes down to one thing: It is THICK OIL that has had NOTHING done chemically to it. You don't want to use it directly in your CRD. EVER.

Geordi: On what do you base this warning? I have run sensible blends of WVO (25% or less) for many care free miles. There are litterally thousands of members on the infopop forum who have put literally milions of miles on their vehicles (including CRDs) with blending, without catastrophic failures. As you have posted here before, you have used dramatically underreacted Biodiesel in your vehicles without issue. Here you claim to use only 12% methanol in your reactions, which will leave ~ half of the triglicerides unreacted in a single stage process. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... light=fame

geordi wrote:

I would let the glycerin-and-oil-and-bio slurry drain from a bottom valve into an open 5 gallon pail, then leave that alone for a few weeks until the glycerin compacted into a disgusting Jello. I could then usually pour off about another gallon of biodiesel from the top, and have 4 gallons of glycerin from a 40 gallon batch.

Raw triglycerides are ~20% glycerin by volume, so you had very underreacted batches.

This is however not a problem, as you have found out during your years of BD use. Even though you had a high percentage of unreacted veg in your mix, it was still thin enough to burn well in your vehicle at ambient temps. The same facts are true for D2 blends, as long as they are thin enough to inject and atomize well, there will be no problems (as long as one takes the preventative mesures mentioned above.

UFO · **Posted:** Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:28 pm

I've seen more than a few direct injection engines started cold on various percentages of WVO that have failed. It's not immediate, it's a gradual thing, and it's from unburned fuel getting past the rings. This is fact. Keep the incompletely burned "triglycerides" off your cylinder walls and you will not have any problems.

Keep in mind the viscosity of thicker fuels. WVO mixed with diesel is thicker than diesel, and this can affect the spray pattern in a way that produces more unburned fuel. It is common to heat WVO to reduce the viscosity and improve the spray pattern, but modern computer-controlled diesels will retard injection timing in response to hot fuel. This makes the unburned fuel issue worse (less time to burn), so this temperature increase must be made in a way such that the computer cannot compensate for it.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:43 pm

UFO wrote:

I've seen more than a few direct injection engines started cold on various percentages of WVO that have failed. It's not immediate, it's a gradual thing, and it's from unburned fuel getting past the rings. This is fact. Keep the incompletely burned "triglycerides" off your cylinder walls and you will not have any problems.

This has been repeated many times over the years as fact. However on the many alternative fuel forums which I frequent, no one has EVER been able to produce photos of a single example of coked rings, or over-coked injectors. I have however seen very many examples of engines which have failed while running dinodiesel. I'm not saying that one can't ruin their engine by running blended veg without taking precautions, I just haven't seen it personally in any of my own vehicles, whether DI or IDI, nor have I seen any catastrophic failures in any of my friends vehicles who run veg blends, or two tank systems. We have determined the proper percentage which each of our vehicles will run, and we go with it. If a person ignores the complaints of their vehicle and it fails them(smoke etc...), they get what they deserve. I don't think that any more damage is occurring by using sensible concentrations of blended fuel than is occurring by running low lubricity ULSD.

Everyone who chooses to try an alternative fuel needs to educate themselves on whether or not it is right for them. When someone makes a blanket statement that this or that thing is bad for someone else's engine, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it does work well, is setting them self up to look bad.

Here in an interesting link detailing one gentleman's experience over several years using blended veg in a modern DI engine with the same Bosch fuel system which we have in the liberty. P.S. I don't use nor support diesel secret's product. http://www.turbodieselregister.com/foru ... 5-ctd.html

WVO and #2 Diesel mix?

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