Paging Mr. Mopar, Danoid, et al: New TC Install

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:49 pm

We now know that GDE's '05 KJ was not F37'd until Feb of '08. Keith reported the new 68037142AA TC was a straight bolt-in on his '05. No mods to the trans were needed.

Our '05 was F37'd in Dec of '06 It has been stated on this site that a new pump, plate and seal will have to be installed in the gearbox to accomodate a "new style" TC.

So, please advise if you think we are likely to find the same situation as GDE did and be able to just swap the TCs, or have a much bigger project on our hands.

Our '05 has a leaking rear main seal. The dealer has indicated that while doing a warranty repair ($100, total) of this problem, they are willing to swap the existing TC for a new "euro" one (supplied by me) at no extra charge. However, replacing the pump, etc. will add almost $1000 to the cost.

So, I am attempting to determine in advance what is likely to be found when the trans is removed and avoid a potentially very ugly and expensive situation.

Thanks in advance,

DOC

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:55 am

Doc

To clearify what your asking. After reading your question several times I think what your asking is will they find the new redesgined pump and cover. As we know the seal for the old style cover is no longer available and it's always good practice to replace a seal instead of reusing it so they would need to replace the cover and pump. The recall said to replace it IF there was a noise coming from the TC area. At the time of all these recalls some dealers replaced them as a matter of doing it right the first time to eliminate a possible repeat and others (most?) took a chance using the old one:wink:
To replace the rear main seal on the engine the TC normally stays on the transmission and the seal is not disturbed eliminating possible problems but replacing it opens the can of worms.

So if your asking did they replace the pump and cover the first time and you do not have the paper work for that service then who knows, maybe your dealer can get a copy of the repair order :?:

But if your asking will the new TC fit on the old pump and cover I UNDERSTAND it's a direct replacement and will fit but it may leak. Maybe Danoid would be the one to ask about weather it will fit the old cover :idea:

If needed with a good tech it should not turn "ugly" just expensive. The F37 TSB tells them exactly how to do it and what to avoid :lol:

On the other hand if they find it's currently leaking already then it should/could be on their nickle

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:40 am

Hi Joe,

Great reply. There's always more to it than you first think. I assumed the TC had to be removed from the flywheel before it could be removed to access the rear main seal. The TC would then be a "loose" part so it would not be any extra work for the dealer to substitute another TC on reassembly. Now you have enlightened me that while the TC is "disconnected" from the flywheel, it remains connected to the trans when doing a rear main seal. So, what I thought would be no extra work to substitute a new TC, really is, at least a little. However, if the new TC does not mate with pump, cover, and seal, that's where there is going to be a huge problem.

In our case, I have the work order for the F37 on our '05 (done in Dec '06) and CLEARLY they only replaced the TC, not the pump, etc. I have obtained a VIP report on Keith's '05. The F37 on his was done over a year later (Feb '08) and it simply lists, "21F37182-CSN#F37-Replace Torque Convert". Unless that extended code means something, I assume it is unclear whether JUST the TC was replaced at that time, or also the pump, etc. The VIP lists the dealer so I suppose it may be possible for them to come up with the detailed work order, assuming, of course, they are still in business. (Keith got no records with this rig.)

So the question is, given the relatively recent date the recall was done on Keith's, would the dealer have HAD to have replaced the pump, etc., because the only TC they could have obtained at that time would have required it? If so, this would account for why Keith found the install of the new "euro" TC to be such a "snap".

My obvious concern is that a very different situation may present itself when our '05 is opened up. The dealer has told me that if they find a "problem" with the pump, etc., they will have no problem replacing it under warranty. However, you have clarified for me that while doing a "normal" rear main seal repair, they would not even touch the mating of the TC with trans/seal/pump, etc., and therefore any of this would simply be a non-issue. So, if they have to take apart something they normally would not when doing a rear main, that's when the bill will undoubtedly jump from $100 to $1000.

I'll try to contact the dealer who worked on Keith's if folks think that may be the only way to be as certain as possible before moving ahead.

Thanks again,

DOC

PS: Is there anyway to tell if when mating a "new" TC to an "old" cover whether it is going to leak, without fully reassembling and driving the vehicle? Also, what is the DCJ procedure to determine if there is a "leak" upon initial inspection? I assume that if a leak is found at that point, it should be a warranty item, but if it leaks with the "new" TC supplied by me, that would be "my" problem and be on "my" nickel.

BTW, does a leak mean less than optimum pressure in some part of the Trans/TC? (I know virtually zip about automatics, though I'm good with old Hewlands.)

fastRob · **Posted:** Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:23 am

First, I do not trust dealers. Finding a good transmission guy is no piece of cake either.
I would verify that the parts have been replaced or replace them unless you do not have the money. There are pictures on the tech thread.
The new pump is different. I got the shift kit because B&M told me the springs, bolts were better.
If you are doing the T/C why not verify by your own 2 eyes that you have the right pump?
8 hours labor to R&R the tranny should be done once.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:23 pm

Wouldn't you know it, the dealer that did the F37 on Keith's '05 (Don Phillips Jeep in Frederick, MD) is out of business. I was given a number to call on Monday to see about the detailed service records, but I'm not holding out much hope. I'm afraid that all that is available is the VIP info.

In any case, it's only getting the "euro" TC installed that's standing in the way of getting the back to back rear wheel dyno numbers (GDE Eco vs. HOT tunes) that lots of you folks are waiting for. (I always repeat at least one ECU previously tested to allow correction for any differences that may be unknowingly introduced.

Previously, I have compared stock to InMotion Stage II and GDE Eco to IM SII. Check my posts)

I hope people who know more than I do can help with sorting out whether I am likely to find what Keith did when he did his "euro" TC install.

Thanks as always,

DOC

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:22 pm

Hey all,

Like many here I'm worried about my tranny. Often as I slow to a stop leaving my neighborhood it will feel like the xmission locks in gear and the Jeep tries to lurch forward. If there isn't any traffic I'll just let my foot off the brake and off I go. But if there is traffic and I hold the brake the engine will often stall. It scares the crap out of my wife when it happens (she's the primary driver).

So even with F37 (April '07) and the GDE tune I'm expecting this tranny to die on me at any point. I'm currently debating whether to wade into the Euro TC install now or wait for the thing to let go.

Anyway, my question is regarding this pump replacement stuff. I'm planning to stop by my dealer to have them pull the record of my F37. Do I just need to ask them if they replaced the pump in addition to the TC? I assume that would show up on the work order?

If they only replaced the TC during F37, what all would I need to replace if I wanted to install a Euro TC?

Thanks,

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

Chris,

It sounds like the trans may have material dispersed in the system as the lock-up clutch is going bad. Best to drop the pan and check for material on the magnet and tear apart the filters. If excessive contamination is found, a pump replacement would provide an added safety factor and peace of mind when doing the TC upgrade. The converter is only going to get worse.

The dealer should have service notes regarding if the pump was changed. Maybe a list of all the parts changed as well. Were the transmission lines and cooler flushed during the F37?

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:09 pm

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

Chris,

It sounds like the trans may have material dispersed in the system as the lock-up clutch is going bad. Best to drop the pan and check for material on the magnet and tear apart the filters. If excessive contamination is found, a pump replacement would provide an added safety factor and peace of mind when doing the TC upgrade. The converter is only going to get worse.

The dealer should have service notes regarding if the pump was changed. Maybe a list of all the parts changed as well. Were the transmission lines and cooler flushed during the F37?

Tranny fluid and filter change was done 10k miles ago (at 60k total on the odo - F37 was done at ~30k). There was probably a teaspoon of grey "goo" on the magnet when I did the swap. No large chunks and the fluid didn't smell burnt. I was planning to order one of the deeper pans and have that installed when I decided to do the Euro TC.

I did some digging and found my F37 work order. They only replaced the TC and flashed the computer. No mention of the pump. :cry:

Can someone give me the complete list of part numbers to do this swap/upgrade in addition to the TC? I'd like to order all the parts myself through partsamerica.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:04 pm

grywlfbg wrote:

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

Chris,

It sounds like the trans may have material dispersed in the system as the lock-up clutch is going bad. Best to drop the pan and check for material on the magnet and tear apart the filters. If excessive contamination is found, a pump replacement would provide an added safety factor and peace of mind when doing the TC upgrade. The converter is only going to get worse.

The dealer should have service notes regarding if the pump was changed. Maybe a list of all the parts changed as well. Were the transmission lines and cooler flushed during the F37?

Tranny fluid and filter change was done 10k miles ago (at 60k total on the odo - F37 was done at ~30k). There was probably a teaspoon of grey "goo" on the magnet when I did the swap. No large chunks and the fluid didn't smell burnt. I was planning to order one of the deeper pans and have that installed when I decided to do the Euro TC.

I did some digging and found my F37 work order. They only replaced the TC and flashed the computer. No mention of the pump. :cry:

Can someone give me the complete list of part numbers to do this swap/upgrade in addition to the TC? I'd like to order all the parts myself through partsamerica.

danoid · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:46 am

grywlfbg wrote:

Hey all,

Like many here I'm worried about my tranny. Often as I slow to a stop leaving my neighborhood it will feel like the xmission locks in gear and the Jeep tries to lurch forward. If there isn't any traffic I'll just let my foot off the brake and off I go. But if there is traffic and I hold the brake the engine will often stall. It scares the crap out of my wife when it happens (she's the primary driver).

So even with F37 (April '07) and the GDE tune I'm expecting this tranny to die on me at any point. I'm currently debating whether to wade into the Euro TC install now or wait for the thing to let go.

Anyway, my question is regarding this pump replacement stuff. I'm planning to stop by my dealer to have them pull the record of my F37. Do I just need to ask them if they replaced the pump in addition to the TC? I assume that would show up on the work order?

If they only replaced the TC during F37, what all would I need to replace if I wanted to install a Euro TC?

Thanks,

You need a new pump. My torque converter #2 was installed by an incompetent dealership who forgot to toque all of the bellhousing to block bolts. The subsequent flexing between the engine and trans took out the pump also. Exactly the same results. The pump is not able to generate enough pressure at engine idle to keep the torque converter unlocked. A quick shift into Neutral will keep the engine from stalling, although living with this condition is not optimal.

On the original question, yes the new torque converter will work with the old pump and pump cover. If you are careful in installation and do not nick the lip seal in disassembly or reassembly with the hub of the torque converter, everything should be fine.

However, the newer pump is more robust and will have a smaller chance of leaking even if the installation goes perfectly.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:11 pm

Thanks for everyone's input. I really appreciate it. Everything should work out with the dealer because if the seal is leaking when they take it apart, they should install a new pump, cover and seal under warranty. If there is no sign of leaks, it should be a straight replacement of one TC for the other. Just waiting for the new TC to arrive from MPPA.

Looking forward to getting back to the dyno.

Best Wishes,

DOC

Paging Mr. Mopar, Danoid, et al: New TC Install

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