You have to specifically do this:

1. Accellerate hard to 55 or 60 from almost a dead stop, making RPMs go over 3k.
2. At 55-60 immediatly back of on the throttle and just maintain speed at 55...

That will trigger the studder.



I agree. The petition is not so much for weight though, it is more designed to simply count people - so that when you go into a dealership you can have some shred of evidence that this happens to other people, and that you are not crazy...

_________________
http://www.pdxbiodiesel.org

Unable To Trigger Shudder So Far


Well, I just went out and tried to get this to happen. I didn't take my notepad, but went for a “casual” test, so I may be off on a few things. I'll bring my pad for this afternoon's trials/joyride.

Here's what I did this morning...

Vehicle

I have a 2005 Jeep Liberty Sport 4x4 CRD with 5-speed automatic, Dark Khaki, with Customer Preferred Package 22C, manufactured 7/1/05, 10:10AM in Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.

Conditions

A. I'm at about 4500' altitude. I don't know if this matters, but I thought I'd mention it.

B. I performed the tests on relatively flat terrain, and also on modest, rolling hills.

C. I started with almost exactly 450 miles on the odometer, and now have 478 miles on it.

D. I live in a rural area, and performed these tests on relatively unused but paved farm roads in the area.

E. My observations are approximations, both due to the casual nature of the exercise and the fact that I was greatly exceeding the posted speed limits in doing this -- so some of my attention was on making sure I didn't offend the local constabulary.

Procedure

1. I started each test from a complete stop. The shifter was in “D” (drive) and overdrive was enabled.

2. I floored the accelerator completely. The observed turbo lag was about 1 second -- then that baby just plain hauls butt.

3. The RPMs topped out right at the 4000 redline on two of the shifts, and about 3500 on the other two (I forget which -- the experience is rather exhilarating), and shifting seemed fine to me. Did I mention this baby hauls butt?

4. For the first six runs, I let off the throttle completely at 65MPH and let it coast down to 55MPH, which I maintained for at least two minutes. The engine RPM at 55MPH was 1800. My observed shift point for overdrive has been at 58MPH (nominal), and I didn't observe a downshift coming down from 65MPH (but I may have missed it in all the excitement).

5. I noticed nothing unusual. Based on what I've read (and granted, I'm a newb), I would expect something definite by way of “studder”. However, I didn't notice anything unusual.

6. I conducted five more runs with varying parameters, but all were based on a full-throttle acceleration. Combinations I tried included 0-70-55, 0-60-50, 0-55-50 and so forth.

7. At no time during any of the eleven test runs did I observe any behavior which I would consider unusual, undesired, problematic or alarming.

Conclusions

There may be something I'm “doing wrong”, but so far, in both this series of tests and in the various kinds of driving I've been doing this week, I haven't observed anything that even remotely bothers me.

Next Steps

I'm sure I'll want to look into the CCV business, since I intend to keep this vehicle for a very long time, but that's probably about it. I have a tricked out 2000 TJ for off-roading, so this is my “touring car” for highway travel and occasional dirt-road exploration. I live on a dirt road, so I wanted a car that could handle them (particularly the mud in the winter).

I'm about to head out for more driving this afternoon because finally, after a week of scattered rain showers, the weather is beautiful. I'll take my notepad and be alert for any potential problems.

This coming Wednesday (11/2/05) I'm planning to begin a rather long road trip around the western U.S. that will probably put about 3000 miles on the vehicle or so. After that, I'm planning to take it in to Reno Lithia Jeep (a 5-star outfit that I bought my Wrangler from 5 years ago) for its first service (early) so they can check it out, do whatever “silent recalls” need doing and whatnot.

I am making a list of things I want to talk to the service techs about (and hell yes, you better believe I talk to them!), and both the “studder” and CCV issues will be on it, although I haven't seen studder yet, and I'm not planning to pull any hoses to check for oil (yet).

Questions

I'll be a busy beaver for the next several weeks, but plan to check in on this forum because I love my KJ and I greatly appreciate the excellent information provided by my fellow members here.

If anyone has any questions, comments or suggestions on this issue or any others, I certainly welcome them.



P.S. Why am I unsurprised that there are so many squids on this board? Add one to the count: I was in from '83-'89.

Am I Overlooking Something?

Well, I drove hither and yon this afternoon on the highways of western Nevada (odo is now at 618), and was watchful for any signs of trouble.

In my heightened state of vigilance, I kept looking for evidence of any sort of shuddering, but was unable to detect anything definitive.

One thing that complicates the observation process is the fact that the KJ's suspension seems to be very efficient in transferring bumps and vibrations from the road surface to the driver.

I'm not really complaining, because I doubt the beast would corner as well as it does if the suspension was mushier. But on the Nevada backroads I drive on and share with many big rigs, the road surfaces can develop various features that resemble shallow washboarding and whatnot.

Several times during my drive, I kept wondering, “is that studdering?” I think I need to better understand the symptoms and possible causes.

When I suspected studdering, it was never anything overt, just what seemed like “bumpiness”. Each time I suspected something, I varied speed to see if it would go away or change, and later tried dropping it into neutral briefly to see if that changed anything.

It didn't, and I think what I was experiencing was just the moderate bumpiness of the roads combined with a little paranoia on my part.

So I have to ask: is the studdering problem something I would definitely notice, or is it something that just gets on peoples' nerves over time?

Eyeballing Mileage

I'm still working on my first tankful (I'm 334 miles into it, the first 284 miles were on fuel from the dealership) and am now just under 7/16 on the gauge.

I hit the halfway mark at about 275 miles, so if the gauge is reasonably linear, I would expect about 550 miles from this tankful -- though I don't ever plan to run it anywhere close to dry. Compared to the 250 miles I get per tank from my Wrangler, I'm pretty pleased.

Since the gauge may well be nonlinear, though, I'll reserve final judgment until the next fill-up, and watch the averages over time. As oldnavy and others have pointed out, there can be a lot of variability from tankful to tankful, and I'll bear that in mind.

If anything, I would expect lower mileage from this tank because the vehicle is so new (and tight) and I've been idling it a lot, gunning it for the studder tests and generally just driving the hell out of it.

Though I had been testing it on hills and curves earlier (as on the trip up to Mt. Rose summit, 8300' altitude, flawless performance), I had been generally babying it in transit on the highway, and never really floored it until this morning's tests.

Now I like to play with the turbo.

Anyway, so far, so good. We'll see how my Big Adventure goes. It starts on Wednesday, 11/2/05 -- but I'll be doing further “road trials” before then, because they are a lot of fun.

No, the studdering is *very* obvious, and nothing like road bumpyness.

It is encouraging that you are not able to duplicate the problem, as maybe that means they have ironed out the problem.

I wonder if there is a firmware difference in your CRD than mine. Mine was built in May... They have done all the current flashes and reprograms as of September....

It really feels like the engine is cutting out, except with no engine symptoms like change in noise or RPMs. It could be the transmission...

_________________
http://www.pdxbiodiesel.org

Majic's CRD and mine were both mfg in July and I also do not have any shudder and I do know what the diesel shutter is, because it was a problem on some VW's and was corrected by adjusting the either the injection timing or injection quanity or both with the VAG-COM diagnostic software for most of those cars. I sure wish someone would crack D/C (MB) software and make a program for us like VAG-COM is for VW/Audi and BMW. Man that's a must have for these modern electronic cars.

_________________
91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

Majic:

I think you will find this shudder everyone is noticing. Has more to do with the tranny shifting. When you let off the pedal and coast from about 55 to 70 MPH the transmisson seams to shift back and forth like it is trying to find the right gear. As soon as you start to accelerate it digs into gear and goes away.

I had a major problem about two weeks ago. I merged onto a highway going about 60mph add the trafic suddenly (with out warning) breaked to 35mph. I flinched over to the second lane to avoid hiting the truck I was behind. At the same time a rig in the third lane started to move into the same hole. I had to hit the gas er... diesel hard to pull ahead. The rpms almost redlined. When I was able to let off the pedal the shudder was almost enough to shake the jeep apart. I mean it was the worst I have ever felt.

I had to keep a heavy foot on the pedal to keep it down. After about two three miles it was still shaking hard after I would let off the gas. So I pulled off and stoped on the shoulder. Sat for a minute and every thing went back to normal.

I hope I never have to experience this bad of a problem again. If you are not having any of these problems consider yourself lucky.

Jason

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Now: "07 steel blue JK Rubicon 2dr
4.5" Rubicon Express lift
rolling on 35"x12.5" Xtreme MT's
Warn M8000 winch
On board Air
Ham radios
Skidrow and kilby skids

Former: '05 Patriot Blue CRD. Lifted, locked, and a few other toys.

Sure sounds like a trans and/or fuel timing problem, most likely a combo of the two. THe VW diesel problem was in the manual trans cars and generally only happened when coming to a stop. What W3CSX has just gave us a sample of is to say the least dangerous problem and should be checked into ASAP.

My feeling is this is strickly a computer problem, but it is still possiable that something mechanical could be improperly functioning. My guess is IQ (Injection Quanity) & IP (Injuction Pump) timing is out of wack and I'm sure the StarScan can not make changes like that, hopefuly new flash to an updated version would fix the problem. However as I said the problem may not be able to be done by a flash and will need a module or main CPU replaced.

_________________
91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

Doesn't Sound Like Something I'd Miss

My impression is that this isn't a nitpicker issue, and that if I experience shudder, I'll have no doubt about it.

I may be lucky, and maybe DC did something to fix the problem in June. So far I haven't experienced anything that seems as dramatic as described, and I've been looking for it.

I'll keep looking for it and any other problems as I continue to drive the vehicle in the coming weeks. I'll be putting about 3000 miles on it or more, so I imagine I'll see this problem at some point if my unit is prone to it.

For those having this problem, I'm sorry I can't sign the petition and help out, but if I am not seeing the problem, I can't rightly complain about it.

But I very much hope DC will straighten it out, because it seems they changed something before they made my vehicle -- unless I just haven't found the magic combination of factors yet.

Oh well, time will tell.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty Sport 4x4 CRD with 5-speed automatic, Dark Khaki, with Customer Preferred Package 22C, manufactured 7/1/05, 10:10AM in Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A. Purchased 10/24/05.

I had the highway shudder, and my stealership finally got a tsb on it 01/13/06 and they reflashed my darn computer again, good news is I have been driving it alot without it shuddering since I got it back.

2006 CRD sport dark Kaki.

I've had this problem as well. First time accelerating fast from stop, engine shuddered and lost power and died! Had to pull off to the side of the road and then restart. Very dangerous because I was pulling out into traffic on a 50mph zone. Second time on cruz going 60mph on slight downgrade, shuttered for about 5 seconds then went back to normal. Third time from stop accellerated hard shuttered lost power and wouldn't go past 35-40mph no matter how much I depressed the accelerator. Tranny kept on jumping into high rpm's. Drive directly to the dealer and let the service manager drive it. He went out one exit and then right back into the entrance and into the shop. They hooked up the computer to it and said that it had a fuel rail pressure error. They did some tests and couldn't find any bad parts. They said that when they drained the fuel system that there was a little air in it. Don't know if that's BS or not. Anyway they reprimed the fuel system and it hasn't done it since. However that was like two weeks ago and I don't drive it very far.

Catherine

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'92 XJ Cherokee -

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/catherine.anderson/

Oldnavy,

My Jeep also has this problem and it seems to me like the torque converter cannot make up it's mind after heavy acceleration. The wierd thing is that the RPM's never change. It doesn't seem like a miss, more like a transmission issue. Now unless it is a mechanical defect in the design or construction of the turque converter, it should be easy for DC to fix through an update to the TCM. If only they would get off their arse and fix it!

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2005 Liberty Limited CRD

The air in the fuel system diagnosis is for real, it's described in the service manual.

The fuel pump has to suck fuel all the way from the fuel tank thru the low pressure lines, up to and thru the fuel filter/water separator, before it gets to the pump. If any of the connections develop an air leak, get air in the line where that pump loses prime and stops pumping, fuel pressure goes away, your engine stops running.

If they did a thorough job, they should have checked the lines and all connections on the suction side of the pump.

IMHO, this could be another potential problem area down the road, having to replace quick connects/fuel lines as they age, or the fuel pump itself wearing out. By not having a low pressure lift pump back close to the fuel tank, they'e depending on everything staying airtight.

My friend's '04 Dodge Cummins is a case in point. It's the pre-'04.5 model, had the low pressure lift pump mounted up on the engine block next to the fuel filter. At something over 60K miles, it wore out and the truck quit running, had to have it towed to the dealer. Fortunately, the Cummins engine warranty paid for installing a modification kit, that moved the low pressure lift pump inside the fuel tank and added all new wiring, hardware, and plumbing where required.

Basically, this was a common enough problem with these trucks that DC and Cummins already had a ready-made install kit on hand. Due to the design of the lift pump and where it was located in the system, it had to work hard to pull fuel from the tank and eventually wore out.

That might be a "peace of mind" aftermarket mod we see offered down the road for the CRD, a low pressure lift pump and upgraded fuel lines to eliminate potential loss of prime/fuel starvation occurrences.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

My build date is 6-20-2005 and I can not get the shudder to happen. I'm now at 4300 miles.

the problem with mine was the torque converter not making up its mind due to bad programming they updated it and so far so good, and I have driven it 200 miles or more since I got it back.

So there are actually 2 different xmission issues we have here. One is the delayed gear engagement and/or shuddering immediately after start-up. That one's covered w/ TSB 21-016-05 and involves a faulty xmission oil filter.

This one seems to be the torque converter not being able to make up its mind. Anyone have a TSB # for this one? Just makes it a lot easier when I go to the dealer if I have the TSB printed out.

_________________
Chris
Current:
2007 Steel Blue Metallic Grand Cherokee CRD Limited
GDE Eco Tune and DPF delete
CB Engineering DPF delete pipe
EHM

Past (sold to Mountainman):
2005 Patriot Blue Liberty CRD Limited

I talked to my service department today, and they said that the tsb that fixed mine was actually for the '06 model and I was really quick to tell them that they couldn't have it back! lol anyway maybe that will help. they said that maybe it was mine was a late '05 model that it had the problem?

Any way you can get the TSB nuimber for the 06 TSB that fixed the shudder problem on your 05? I've got the same thing going on here. Thanks,
BillS

most likely they won't do it, because star isn't wanting to pay them to have done it to mine.
they say it shouldn't have been done to mine and that they aren't paying. So we will just have to wait for them to figure it out. IOW keep complaining to the dealers!

I'm starting to think it is the software that is causing the problems.

For 2005, DC updated the 545 RFE tranny with what they call an EMCC, or electronically modulated converter clutch. This is on both the CRD's and the '05 Dakotas as well. Under certain conditions, it will go into only partial lockup, and under certain conditions of engine load, speed, and throttle position, will "modulate" the converter clutch to try and match engine and tranny speed for the conditions. I think this "modulation" is our infamous tranny shudder, carried to the extreme by software that hasn't been refined yet. Supposed to occur under conditions of light engine load, light throttle application, etc.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Light throttle application what the stinky poo is that?? I wear a 16D shoe, they are not light.

_________________
91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine