FYI Original Vs Euro Torque Converter

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:21 pm

Ron Wolverton of SunCoast wanted to know what was in the Euro Torque Converter, so he bought one and cut it open.
After having his team look it over, make measurements and compare every component to the original CRD torque converter, here is what they found:
Original CRD Converter Dampener Springs.

Euro CRD Converter Dampener Springs.

My Harbor Freight digital caliper could not get in and measure the wire diameter as well as the dial caliper Ron Wolverton had. He measured 0.080" Spring wire diameter on the Original CRD Dampener Springs and 0.100" on the Euro CRD Dampener springs.
The box it came in:

The rest of this converter was the same as the Original CRD converter.

Bill.Barg · **Posted:** Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:43 pm

Thanks SunCoast for paying for this information

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:12 pm

More pics:
Phenolic Stator

Euro

Original

Paper friction material

SunCoast will treat the Euro Converter as a core and reincarnate it into a SunCoast CRD converter.
They will do the same with my core.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

When I cut open my old TC there were 2 springs in each location (a smaller one inside the bigger one). Looks like the new Euro one only has one thick spring? Is that correct?

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

The clutch material also looks significantly different than what my old TC material looked like . . .

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:56 am

TDIwyse wrote:

When I cut open my old TC there were 2 springs in each location (a smaller one inside the bigger one). Looks like the new Euro one only has one thick spring? Is that correct?

The little inside springs look close to the same size on both units.
The only difference any of us could find was the outer dampener springs.

Note: I am not employed by SunCoast and only a customer who bought a CRD converter. Ron Wolverton let into the shop to take a look and photo the Euro Converter.
I am a customer working with them to develop new TCM programming for the CRD. Since I will have my SunCoast CRD Converter installed before the TCM program is ready, I want it to be for my SunCoast converter so my CRD can perform the way myself and other SunCoast Converter owners want it to work. I will not accept detuned performance.

Squeeto · **Posted:** Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:12 pm

Do you know what material SunCoast replaces the phenolic stator with?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:23 am

Squeeto wrote:

Do you know what material SunCoast replaces the phenolic stator with?

Aluminum.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

warp2diesel wrote:

The little inside springs look close to the same size on both units.
The only difference any of us could find was the outer dampener springs.

Thanks. I missed the inside springs on your pics the first time but see them now.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:56 am

Was there any difference on the angle of the stator fins?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:35 am

TDIwyse wrote:

The clutch material also looks significantly different than what my old TC material looked like . . .

Clutch material on both the Original and Euro are both referred to as Paper in the Torque Converter Industry.
Your original was used and the Euro in the photos was only factory dyno tested. Usage of the lock up clutch, background lighting, and camera angle will change the color of the friction material.
SunCoast and many other Performance Converter places use a Raybestos friction material similar to what is used on clutch packs.
I got my SunCoast yesterday via UPS, I did not want to pay or trust Delta to haul it with me.
In a couple weeks when I schedule some time off, I will weigh both my original and the SunCoast so I can figure in the extra Flywheel mass.

mag03kj · **Posted:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:37 am

Well stupid ?...is the Euro stronger??

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:23 pm

mag03kj wrote:

Well stupid ?...is the Euro stronger??

As far as I can tell, only the dampener springs are, the rest measures out to be the same.
Larger spring wire, stronger springs.
I suspect the weak dampener springs in the Original set up a harmonic and resulted in the chatter. Chatter like an impact wrench would cause the lock up clutch to slip, generate more heat and resulted in cascade failure.
With the typical Bean Counter oversight, Chrysler opted to stiffen up the dampener springs to cancel out the harmonic so they would not need to beef up the rest of the Torque Converter. That way they can get by with the higher torque of the newer VM 2.8L used out of North America.

Did I or would I buy a Euro, No, I bought the SunCoast. I know the SunCoast is way over designed with a bigger lock up clutch and aluminum stator, and this gives the Bean Counters chest pains along with a numb left arm, that is exactly why I bought it. My acceptable failure rate on a replacement torque converter is zero.
I want to do more with my CRD over the long haul and want it capable of doing so. Having a 3/4 or 1 Ton truck to pull my 1900lb empty tandem axle trailer is an option I did away with when I traded the 1 Ton for the CRD. Sure the SunCoast cost $695 + SH, but even if the 3/4 or 1 Ton was paid for, I would be shelling out more than double the cost of the SunCoast every year for insurance and license plate tags. Besides, I have no place to park a 3/4 or 1 Ton truck.

Lancer · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:52 am

Thank you for this, it is very helpful.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:23 am

So after months of threads about the "Euro" TC being the saviour....I end up buying one only to find out a week later that I spent $325 on different springs? Yay...that makes a guy feel good. :banghead:

What are the odds of just buying the new springs and installing in the original TC? Zero?

Big Montana · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:38 am

Well, if I'm not mistaken, I went for a ride in GDE's turbo tuned CRD with a euro TC and he didn't have a problem with it. He can do 0-60 in 8 seconds, and it was smooth. I'm not saying it is as strong (so don't give me crap over my remark) but it seemed to work with a ton of power going through it. I'm just saying, don't be too upset that you bought a euro TC, it handled a ton of power.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:05 am

this gives the Bean Counters chest pains along with a numb left arm, :BINGO:

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

Thanks for the data on the springs. According to this calculator (http://www.engineersedge.com/calculator ... _k_pop.htm) going from .085 to .105 diameter wire should increase the big springs force holding capacity by about 230%. From my make-shift spring constant measurement setup of the old TC those original springs would bottom out at a torque pulse not much above 300 ft-lbs. So these new Euro TC springs should be able to hold up to some very large torque pulses now without the shock of metal-to-metal contact.

Do you have any data on the springs Suncoast is using? I'd be interested to see if they modified theirs as I wouldn't want what happened to some of these folks to happen to you.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41577&hilit=suncoast

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=48092&p=537625&hilit=suncoast+shudder#p537625

I've got no problems with people buying the Suncoast unit. I just hope people don't throwout the potential of the Euro TC without examining all the evidence.

P.S. I've also been giving the Euro TC a workout with the GDE turbo kit in lockup mode at full torque conditions. Not a hint of shudder or any evidence of inadequate clutch holding capability.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:44 am

ATXKJ wrote:

Was there any difference on the angle of the stator fins?

Yes there is.

SunCoast basically buys the Sonnax kit at this web site and puts in different parts such as the aluminum stator. Since the Torque Converter is for a Diesel, I suspect they swap out the dampener assembly as well. Also I noticed the impeller housing is larger than the dimensions shown in the Sonnax kit at this link: http://www.sonnax.com/part_finder.php?p ... y_sc=false

The parts are all available for those who have the equipment to trim, weld, and balance when done.
The ART is knowing what to select to make it work the best.
For the bigger rigs like the Ram Trucks, there are more of them out there and more market to justify the engineering. Therefore there are several suppliers putting Heavy Duty Aftermarket Torque Converters together from the basic kits supplied by Sonnax.
Some of the features being sold like brazed impeller and turbine fins are like Mortar Reinforced Brick Walls on buildings. Not all buildings have the bricks in their walls reinforced by mortar, but you rarely see a brick wall with out mortar.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:06 am

TDIwyse wrote:

Thanks for the data on the springs. According to this calculator (http://www.engineersedge.com/calculator ... _k_pop.htm) going from .085 to .105 diameter wire should increase the big springs force holding capacity by about 230%. From my make-shift spring constant measurement setup of the old TC those original springs would bottom out at a torque pulse not much above 300 ft-lbs. So these new Euro TC springs should be able to hold up to some very large torque pulses now without the shock of metal-to-metal contact.

Do you have any data on the springs Suncoast is using? I'd be interested to see if they modified theirs as I wouldn't want what happened to some of these folks to happen to you.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41577&hilit=suncoast

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=48092&p=537625&hilit=suncoast+shudder#p537625

I've got no problems with people buying the Suncoast unit. I just hope people don't throwout the potential of the Euro TC without examining all the evidence.

P.S. I've also been giving the Euro TC a workout with the GDE turbo kit in lockup mode at full torque conditions. Not a hint of shudder or any evidence of inadequate clutch holding capability.

For me and what I want to do, I want the same service factor as the larger pickups that do towing with a SunCoast or other designed for Diesel Torque Converters. I have stated in previous posts that I will tow my trailer loaded as much as 7000 lbs through the rolling hills of the Midwest hauling my antique tractors. Frontal area will not be as much of a factor as a travel trailer, but the weight factor will be. I did not yet ask what spring configuration SunCoast uses, since they had the stock CRD dampener assemblies laying around, I suspect they must have something more heavy duty being used.
I put a lot of faith in Engineering, but what it boils down to is how sharp you want to sharpen your pencil and design to the edge. I have looked at detailed Finite Element Analysis reports at the same time I was looking at a $2,000,000 piece of equipment that performed beyond expectations, but had a broken shaft and destroyed its' self to the point it had to be scrapped. I have had some personal projects I engineered only to have a failure due to something I over looked or no one including myself was aware of.

Transmission companies like ZF in Germany sharpen their pencils to the point they are knocking the electrons off the atoms that make up the fiber molecules on the paper :lol:

. Compare the Chrysler Euro to a ZF products I have worked on in the past, the Chrysler Euro looks like an armor plated SUV. I am sure there may be a few who had Ford Power Stroke trucks with ZF manual transmissions who share the opinion I got owning and working on a BMW with a ZF Automatic Transmission. That experience along with many others soured me toward Bean Counter Engineering.
For me the stock CRD is just a good place to start. How close to the Edge (what is the service factor) is the Euro Converter designed, who knows, I don't, and don't want to find out on my own.

FYI Original Vs Euro Torque Converter

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