FYI Original Vs Euro Torque Converter

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:27 am

Big Montana wrote:

Well, if I'm not mistaken, I went for a ride in GDE's turbo tuned CRD with a euro TC and he didn't have a problem with it. He can do 0-60 in 8 seconds, and it was smooth. I'm not saying it is as strong (so don't give me crap over my remark) but it seemed to work with a ton of power going through it. I'm just saying, don't be too upset that you bought a euro TC, it handled a ton of power.

Empty acceleration is not the same as towing. Here is the best analogy I can come up with.
Acceleration tests are like using a 24" bending bar torque wrench tightening up a bolt.
Trailer towing is like an impact wrench tightening up the same bolt, more shock loads resulting in more spikes through the drive train.
I can speak for Montana, but in most of the Midwest, driving the poorly maintained roads is a off road adventure. Tow a heavy trailer and you get the jerking on your neck and back as well. Think of what this does to the drive train including the torque converter.
If any component is on the edge with a border line service factor, it will be stressed more, sometimes to the point of failure.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:35 pm

last time i talked to GDE, they were towing 7000lbs with the same vehicle, even at WOT in lockup. If that's not punishment for validation, then nothing is. As far as I know, there hasn't been any shudder with the JK converter.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

I hope the Suncoast unit works out great for you for many years to come. Please keep us posted so we can continue to learn from each other. And thanks for the great detailed pics you provided.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:40 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

last time i talked to GDE, they were towing 7000lbs with the same vehicle, even at WOT in lockup. If that's not punishment for validation, then nothing is. As far as I know, there hasn't been any shudder with the JK converter.

If GDE wants to recommend the Euro Torque Converter for their tune that they designed to work with the Euro Torque Converter, that is their call.
Would Inmotion recommend the Euro Torque Converter for their IMII?
Would Rocketchip recommend the Euro Torque Converter for their tune?
I doubt it from either one.
I have yet to see any recommendations from any other tuners for the Euro Torque Converter, only GDE.

Since I want the low end torque to pull my load and not spin tires, I will ask for the tune that delivers.
When the Wretched F37 Bean Counter Engineered TCM tune can be purged and a better TCM tune installed, I will choose the one I want and have it downloaded into the TCM.
If and when GDE or one of their partners ever offers an end to the Wretched F37 TCM tune, that tune will be to protect the Euro Torque Converter first, and obtain perfprmance second.

With my SunCoast and 545RFE filled with ATF-4, I will not have to accept anything less than the Tune I want.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

warp2diesel wrote:

If GDE wants to recommend the Euro Torque Converter for their tune that they designed to work with the Euro Torque Converter, that is their call.
Would Inmotion recommend the Euro Torque Converter for their IMII?

Just to clarify some of the facts involved in this discussion . . .

Some of the people with the Suncoast unit and the Inmotion tunes report shudder . . . The GDE Hot tune and turbo kit have been demonstrated to put out more low end torque than the other tunes you just mentioned. No reported shudder with the Euro TC from anyone who has used it (at least that I've seen).

warp2diesel wrote:

Since I want the low end torque to pull my load and not spin tires, I will ask for the tune that delivers.

Again, the GDE tunes have been demonstrated to deliver more low end torque and high end hp than any other option out there at the moment. They've also done extensive towing in lockup under extreme conditions without shudder. I don't understand what facts you are thinking about to arrive at this statement?

warp2diesel wrote:

If and when GDE or one of their partners ever offers an end to the Wretched F37 TCM tune, that tune will be to protect the Euro Torque Converter first, and obtain perfprmance second.

I'd be interested in hearing and seeing any factual evidence that supports this prediction of the future that you threw out there.

Again, multiple reports of shudder with the Suncoast unit with high torque tunes. No reports with the Euro TC even with the highest torque tune (GDE Turbo kit) even in towing conditions. Perhaps Suncoast will learn from the upgraded springs they've seen in the new Euro TC and increase their design margin on the shudder issue and improve their product? All I wish is for people to have solutions that give them satisfaction and the ability to form a decision based upon factual evidence. Hopefully we can all strive to stick to the facts.

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

What is the relative stall speed of the stock, F37, Euro, and Suncoast converters?

danoid · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:25 am

warp2diesel wrote:

I suspect the weak dampener springs in the Original set up a harmonic and resulted in the chatter. Chatter like an impact wrench would cause the lock up clutch to slip, generate more heat and resulted in cascade failure.

I agree and that's why a Suncoast is not for me. A Suncoast with the heavier damper springs would be the ticket, but by then you're up to nearly a $ grand to buy the Mopar, send it to Suncoast and get it rebuilt.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:38 am

^^ x2. Can it be confirmed that the Suncoast is not just a billeted Hemi converter, with the same dampener springs as our stock tc's? At least we know for sure that the dampener springs have been updated in the Euro JK TC, but what about the Suncoast?

In my mind, that is the only reason an owner would experience shuddering with the Suncoast - the same dampener springs, just in a stronger package.

It would seem to me that the best (but most expensive :shock:

) option would be to buy a Euro JK converter, and then have Suncoast upgrade it. Then the question would come back to the engineering edge: it's good to not be at the edge of a component's engineered design limitations, but would it even be possible to ever get to the edge of a Suncoast-upgraded Euro TC's ability? I don't think that our engine, with it's alloy-strength limitations, could produce enough torque to ever approach a Suncoast-upgraded Euro tc; I also don't think our frame with it's unibody-induced weight limitations, could ever hope to handle towing enough weight to approach a Suncoast-upgraded Euro tc's design edge.

But then again, there is something to be said for knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that you could never, ever overstress a certain component.

And warp, please don't take my skepticism as a commentary on what you've done here - I'm thankful that you got us the "internals" on the Euro TC vs. the stock TC. Very good pics; a help to the board.

danoid · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:17 pm

LibertyCRD wrote:

So after months of threads about the "Euro" TC being the saviour....I end up buying one only to find out a week later that I spent $325 on different springs? Yay...that makes a guy feel good. :banghead:

What are the odds of just buying the new springs and installing in the original TC? Zero?

danoid wrote:

Announcing 68037142AA. This is the Mopar kit for the 2008+ (export only) JK (Wrangler) CRD torque converter, now available as a service part for the NAFTA 2005-2006 KJ CRD. This torque converter differs from the previous KJ CRD parts by having a stiffer spring rate in the lockup torsion damper. This stiffer spring rate was chosen for durability reasons due to the increased torque of the newer VM 2.8L engine.

This converter is more than sufficient for 340 lbf-ft.

I haven’t installed one in mine yet, but this is the path I’ll take. It should to be a much lower cost alternative to the Suncoast. Looks like the price currently is $286.

Expect the same stall speeds, possibly more vibration when the torque converter is locked up (due to the stiffer springs). It does not have a billet carved front cover, it does not have a CNC machined Aluminum stator. But if it works for the JK/J8, it should work for me.

The kit consists of the torque converter and four driveplate bolts.

Yup the difference is the springs. I thought that was clear from the get-go.

dieseldoesit · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:02 pm

danoid wrote:

Yup the difference is the springs. I thought that was clear from the get-go.

I think some people, myself included expected that "higher spring rates" was something more technical then putting bigger springs on it.

Thanks for all the information here everyone. It was a good read. Though, this KJ is getting expensive. 500 for a GDE tune, 300 for upgraded tc, looks like there is going to be TCM tunes out too, another 200- 300 bucks or so.

Dang

linewarbr · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:14 pm

dieseldoesit wrote:

I think some people, myself included expected that "higher spring rates" was something more technical then putting bigger springs on it.

Thanks for all the information here everyone. It was a good read. Though, this KJ is getting expensive. 500 for a GDE tune, 300 for upgraded tc, looks like there is going to be TCM tunes out too, another 200- 300 bucks or so.

Dang

Well. . . . you could leave it stock, but then what fun would that be? :twisted:

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:30 pm

For the record: Cases of chatter in any aftermarket torque converters included SunCoast have been due to.
1) Incorrect Transmission Fluid, the Chrysler 545RFE requires ATF-4 not the generic universal fluid some shops try to use.
2) Defective front pump that can be fixed by,
a) Replacing the pump,
b) repairing the pump by using the valve supplied in the Transgo Kit,
c) Having the Sonnax hardened repair sleeve installed in the pump bore.

Companies who produce high performance products strive to maintain their reputations by investigating failures and often pay warranty claims even when it is not their fault. They will get the damaged components back and tear them apart to learn what needs to be beefed up or redesigned. Analysis requires going beyond the so called chatter reports being sighted for petty ego building arguments and investigating the "why", results brings forth solutions for our members to use to solve their problems.
Having a defective front pump and replacing the Torque Converter will not fix the chatter problem.
If your have chatter and replacing the original stock converter with another type of Torque Converter that solves problem, you are very lucky and only have a defective converter.

In my personal opinion the J8/Euro converter is what the original converter should have been since day one, not the fix all just short of divine salvation. Those who promote or imply the J8/Euro has supernatural healing power for defective front pumps or incorrect fluid, should have to face the wrath of litigation. Pointing out failures of Aftermarket Torque Converters that turn out to be one or more of the well known and documented causes listed above and state there have been no such problems with the J8/Euro is a intellectually dishonest marketing cheap shot.

Another item left out of the discussion is the almost black ops relationship between Aftermarket Performance Suppliers and manufactures such as Chrysler. With customers willing to fork over money to make their toys better, why should manufacturers not keep a keen eye on what is being done and basically get R&D for something between cheap and free. Information is traded and bartered like allies do in a war. When a better TCM program is developed to replace the Wretched F-37, does any one think that Chrysler or one of their development contractors will not obtain a copy that will be used for future Jeeps? Even if the communications protocols are not the same, the new shifting sequences will be useful to have.

Case: SunCoast customers were unhappy with the shifting sequence on the Dodge Cummins trucks, the torque converter would not unlock soon enough. Add some extra horse power and torque to help towing and things started getting torn up. SunCoast worked with a private contractor who developed the shifting sequence to get rid of the problem. The guys in Michigan knew how to do the code and the guys in Florida knew what needed to be changed to make it work. After several three way conference calls, the problem was solved. SunCoast customers were happy, the private contractor was happy and the unnamed party the private contractor worked for was very happy.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:40 pm

danoid wrote:

warp2diesel wrote:

I suspect the weak dampener springs in the Original set up a harmonic and resulted in the chatter. Chatter like an impact wrench would cause the lock up clutch to slip, generate more heat and resulted in cascade failure.

I agree and that's why a Suncoast is not for me. A Suncoast with the heavier damper springs would be the ticket, but by then you're up to nearly a $ grand to buy the Mopar, send it to Suncoast and get it rebuilt.

The SunCoast cost me $695 + $50 core (refundable)+ ~$45 in shipping, this does not add up to a grand.
BTW: SunCoast builds the CRD torque converters from Sonnax components and salvaged components from the core. You don't need to buy a Euro to get a SunCoast, lets get real.

danoid · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:08 pm

OK before this gets any worse I guess I'll have to clarify my position a little bit.

IMO the main problem with the torque converters performance was the relatively weak damper. That was fixed with the J8 converter. In order to get a Suncoast with that damper, (which I would not mind having those other improvements), I would have to buy the J8 first, send it to Suncoast with the request that that particular damper make it into my purchase, and then I would have spent approximately a thousand dollars.

Since I can't afford even the $650-700 for the Suncoast, I have stated that the J8 converter is for me. I don't have any issues with the construction or workmanship of the Suncoast products, just the cost.

I know of no black ops between OEM and aftermarket and I'm not intending to dishonestly market the J8 converter.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:03 pm

danoid wrote:

OK before this gets any worse I guess I'll have to clarify my position a little bit.

IMO the main problem with the torque converters performance was the relatively weak damper. That was fixed with the J8 converter. In order to get a Suncoast with that damper, (which I would not mind having those other improvements), I would have to buy the J8 first, send it to Suncoast with the request that that particular damper make it into my purchase, and then I would have spent approximately a thousand dollars.

Since I can't afford even the $650-700 for the Suncoast, I have stated that the J8 converter is for me. I don't have any issues with the construction or workmanship of the Suncoast products, just the cost.

I know of no black ops between OEM and aftermarket and I'm not intending to dishonestly market the J8 converter.

Come on and give us a break, Aftermarket Torque Converter builders like SunCoast do not need to buy new torque converters to get stronger dampener springs, they buy them by the box in bulk what ever size they want. Springs are a commodity item that can be sourced from many vendors in any specified size. Turbines, stators, and impellers can be built to suit as well. The only reason they use cores is to reduce costs for the components that are not a problem and do not need to be beefed up to handle the increased beyond stock power demands.

Like I said in a previous post, the J8/Euro converter should have been the stock converter from day one!!

For those of us that want more, we have other options.

danoid · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:12 am

Suncoast, to my knowledge, does not replace the springs in a damper, they use the damper from a previous core. If I'm wrong on that, I'm sorry.

And I agree, the J8 converter should have been installed from day one. But I wasn't the guy to make that call.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:43 am

warp2diesel wrote:

Come on and give us a break, Aftermarket Torque Converter builders like SunCoast do not need to buy new torque converters to get stronger dampener springs, they buy them by the box in bulk what ever size they want. Springs are a commodity item that can be sourced from many vendors in any specified size. Turbines, stators, and impellers can be built to suit as well. The only reason they use cores is to reduce costs for the components that are not a problem and do not need to be beefed up to handle the increased beyond stock power demands.

Like I said in a previous post, the J8/Euro converter should have been the stock converter from day one!!

For those of us that want more, we have other options.

Can you confirm the dampener spring density in the Suncoast unit? I'm interested to see it also if you have photos of a Suncoast unit cracked open.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:51 am

warp2diesel wrote:

In my personal opinion the J8/Euro converter is what the original converter should have been...

This much I can agree with :BANANA:

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:32 am

The Suncoast is 3X more expensive than the Euro TC. Is the Suncoast 3X better? Will it last 3X longer? Will it hold a load without shudder 3X heavier? Will it drive 3X smoother? Give me 3X more fuel economy? I doubt it.

"But it comes with the front pump fix!" Well...I could buy a NEW pump from Mopar and still have less invested with my NEW TC and NEW pump than I would have had invested in the Suncoast kit.

AND...are you guys all installing the TC yourselves? We take on any and all jobs in the driveway at home including engine swaps...but transmission work is one thing we don't do for multiple reasons. I chose to have a shop do my TC for me. That added $500 to the tab. So if I had bought the Suncoast, I'd have a total of $1,200 invested...just to stop the shudder. Not worth it. I'd put a 6-speed manual in my Jeep before I dropped $1,200 on a TC job.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:44 am

When it comes to what I do, I trust very few to work on my stuff.
I have gone deeper than swapping torque converters.
I will investigate the SunCoast dampener configuration.

FYI Original Vs Euro Torque Converter

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