DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue May 11, 2010 2:14 pm

erockskj: I still don't think that it was actually a bad fuel pump after all the BS and outright lies they told you. Fuel pressure from the tank to the fuel head but not beyond? Yeah right. Remember this post...

erockskj wrote:

Well I sent an e-mail to DC to ask why my jeep is still in shop after 2 months. ( simple question ) they sent me a reply, get this, service rep said it was hard finding the right codes
because of all the modifications I`ve done.
Let`s see

1 BF Goodrich tires
2 Trailer hitch and wireing
3 Sticker on back glass that says TURBO DIESEL
4 Gauge on air box to check filter
5 Wix oil filter
6 Wix air filtr
7 Fumoto oil drain
8 Flo master muff

9 Cat II filter ( they replaced that with an OEM now ,completly new filter head)
10 B-20

If I can think of any more I will post WTF............. :evil:

Erock

Didn't they say at one time that the crank position sensor caused the no start during that fiasco?

I'm still convinced that the problem was air in the system which couldn't be purged without some kind of lift pump. My wife once ran ours out of fuel. Once refiled, I was able to use the fuel head primer to get fuel up to the fuel head and fill the filter, but it took forever cranking (two battery charges) to get the air out of the IP and rail(30 second intervals). I think that once the factory LP and IP lose prime, they just cant move anything through the system without some help. On another occasion, I had to drain a bad batch of fuel from the tank and system. For some reason I thought I would let the IP suck all the fuel out of the lines. Well, even though I had an inline lift pump by then, it still took a LOT of cranking to get the thing to fire again and some more cranking to get it to fire and run smoothly.

Point is, once these IPs get a large amount of air in them, they require a tremendous amount of cranking to get it out, and I could see how a mechanic who doesn't want to burn out the starter might think that the pump was bad because it wouldn't start within the first five minutes.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Wed May 12, 2010 11:42 am

I guess the new IP they installed came primed with fuel??

onthehunt · **Posted:** Wed May 12, 2010 12:04 pm

The reason I brought this thread back to life is there is a bunch of new crd owners out there and some like to modify things to make them "better" There also are people still selling this filter head adapter and I think the buyers need to be informed about the possible defects of it and the cost of fixing the damage caused. There are now at least three IP failures involving this mod. I don't remember anyone posting a failed IP pump running the "inadequate" stock filter. Has anyone had to put an injector in one? I won't argue that the Cat filter isn't better. It is. In it's intended application.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed May 12, 2010 5:28 pm

OTH: Could you sum up the 12 pages and 3 years this thread spans then?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still not certain this is what this thread is actually covering:

The original mod - Replacing the stock (and not-so-great) ~10 micron filter with a ~2 micron CAT filter, WITHOUT changing the fuel manager head OR installing a positive-pressure lift pump at / in the tank.

The result - Due to the extreme suction against much more restrictive filter, the injection pump starved for fuel OR caused already-existing-but-tiny air leaks to develop in the fuel manager head... Which starved the injection pump for fuel.

Once starving for lubricating and cooling fuel, the pump was working harder to draw fuel through the 2 micron filter under only suction, the pump overheats / wears / plain out fails.

Does this sound about right?
Would the use of a 2 micron filter be acceptable IF and ONLY IF there was a positive-pressure lift pump installed at the same time? Does the factory fuel head design factor into the failure at all?

I also recall seeing some mention in here about bits of RTV sealant or threadlocker getting into the system... Where from? Does that factor into this somehow?

onthehunt · **Posted:** Thu May 13, 2010 1:32 pm

The adapter sold involved removing the old filter union and installing the new one in the filter head. The original unions were tough as hell to get out and they basically held the filter head together. The problem was the filter head never sealed right when you put it back together and you couldn't buy the o-rings to reseal it. The oem union was also thread sealed in and it left debris in the filter head post-filter if not cleaned properly. Many people bought this adapter and had problems with the vehicle losing prime. I tried it and had problems from day one. I took it apart twice and finally threw it away. Others overcame this by adding a lift pump.Some still leaked even with the lift pump. Some had IP failures and were denied warranty due to the filter not being stock. Not cheap. Filter flow rates had nothing to do with it. The adapter just didn't seal and the filter was not designed to seperate water from the fuel.
Nobody investigated it enough to find out the exact cause of the IP failures. They just paid the big service bill and moved on without this adapter. IP failures are rare on this board and the ones I have seen involve this adapter or contaminated fuel. Use it at your own risk....

geordi · **Posted:** Thu May 13, 2010 2:04 pm

Ah, thanks for that. I completely missed the need-to-rebuild-the-stock-head bits.

The only non-oem filter that I have considered using is a Stanadyne filter, with the appropriate head. But Stanadynes are water-separating filters and can be drained. They also come in several filter sizes, IIRC the 2 micron is considered a "polishing" filter and should not be used without a pre-filter AND a lift pump.

I'm not concerned about that however. VM accepted the mopar filter design, and I don't believe that the tolerances in the CP3 are any tighter that would require more careful filtration.

YMMV, of course.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu May 13, 2010 7:14 pm

Well - the reason for the CAT was a bad particle measurement off of the stock filter (only 1 - no one repeated it) and a report by either Cummins or CAT (don't remember who) about the effect of 5-6 micron particles on high pressure injector systems.

some people installed the CAT with no problems - others had assembly problems, and at least one made custom O rings machined to reassemble the head.

I'm not aware of anyone with the stock filter having IP problems - wear on the injector rail may be a longer term issue.

'Use it at your own risk....'

is a valid point

geordi · **Posted:** Fri May 14, 2010 1:20 am

Hmm, let me think about that then:

Possible wear on the injector rail (a non-moving tube of extremely high tensile steel) or kill my integral-to-everything IP with a bad filter or fuel starvation.

$400 for a rail that probably won't ever need to be replaced... Or $1600 minimum for a pump.

Choice made, thanks for playing!

SPN-87 · **Joined:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:09 pm **Posts:** 53

geordi wrote:

Ah, thanks for that. I completely missed the need-to-rebuild-the-stock-head bits.

The only non-oem filter that I have considered using is a Stanadyne filter, with the appropriate head. But Stanadynes are water-separating filters and can be drained. They also come in several filter sizes, IIRC the 2 micron is considered a "polishing" filter and should not be used without a pre-filter AND a lift pump.

YMMV, of course.

geordi - some days ago i install Stanadyne Fuel Manager FM100 with 2 micron filter and 150 micron prefilter (in the FM100 head). But i didn`t install lift pump. Why FM100 should not be used without a lift pump :?:

geordi · **Posted:** Fri May 14, 2010 11:31 am

Our CRD design does not use a positive pressure fuel delivery system from the tank. The injection pump has a mechanical gear lift pump on it, which is located AFTER the 20 feet of fuel line, pre-filter in the tank, fuel filter head at the engine...

Have you ever tried to drink a freshly-poured milkshake through the straw? Your friends thought it was funny when your face turned purple from all that exertion. Now... Think about trying to drink that same milkshake using only a COFFEE STRAW.

Simply put - Not happening. All the suction in the world isn't gonna help you, and you will experience "milkshake starvation"

This is what you are asking your injection pump to do - By changing to the Stanadyne with a 2 micron filter, you have reduced the available pore size in the filter by a factor of five. At the same time, the needed suction power from your pump has INCREASED by a factor of five. It needs to work up to five times harder to get the fuel to draw through that filter by suction alone.

You are asking for fuel starvation issues, the pump will not be able to draw sufficient volumes through that filter to keep itself lubricated and cooled when the engine is drawing max fuel flow to the injectors.

I'm not saying that filter alone is bad... Just do your engine a favor and put a $50 Mr Gasket inline pump back at the tank, which will PUSH 4-6 psi of fuel through that filter, so the gear pump always has full fuel flow available.

In addition, your filter will last longer, and so will your injection pump.

SPN-87 · **Joined:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:09 pm **Posts:** 53

Thank you geordi for your detailed answer.

Quote:

...Just do your engine a favor and put a $50 Mr Gasket inline pump back at the tank, which will PUSH 4-6 psi of fuel through that filter, so the gear pump always has full fuel flow available...

What you can say about Stanadyne lift pump ? ( http://www.digitaldiesel.ru/filtration/stanadyne/ - pic.9 Fuel Manager with green head - or here: http://www.stanadyne.com/docs/pubf/99795.pdf ). Can i use it ? It is much simpler to set this pump... Or do I wrong ?
I am sorry if my question sounds rookie.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat May 15, 2010 12:58 am

I'm familiar with the Stanadyne, however I believe they suffer from two flaws for our needs: The pump is mounted at the filter, so it is still trying to pull fuel from 20 feet away. This isn't good for the pump, and it may not be able to draw enough volume to make the engine happy. Mounted at the tank would be better.

The second problem with the Stanadyne lift pump is that in the unit that I had to work with, it was trying to draw the fuel through the filter, rather than PUSH the fuel through the filter. Removing the suction is the goal here. It is possible that I had either an old design OR it just wasn't set up properly, I'm not certain. I couldn't get it to work, and ended up just using the filter by itself with the top of the head capped.

SPN-87 · **Joined:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:09 pm **Posts:** 53

Thank you geordi.

DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

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