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 Post subject: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:03 am 
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While in P/T 4wd sitting at a light the libby feels like I am on a Harley. Crazy vibration.

I am really starting to believe my T/Q is on its way out... Symptoms.
Loss of mileage 2-4MPG down, power down, shutter at 50-55 under a roll on throttle 4wd not locking up correctly.

Ideas or similar :?: cases?


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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:32 am 
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Unless your traffic light is on a snow covered or dirt road you have no business being in part time 4 wheel drive :banghead: Part time is for extreme duty like mud sand or snow. You can be tearing it up big time :dizzy:

The Select Track 242 transfer case has a "quirk" when shifting between full time 4wd and 2wd that you must learn to control :SOMBRERO:

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:25 am 
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You may have loose or fallen out torque converter to flex plate bolts.
To be safe, remove the Starter and pop the access plug to the bolts that attach the torque converter to the flex plate. Then check the torque of the four bolts (290in-lbs). If any are loose but not fallen out, consider replacing them or at least removing them and applying Loctite and retorquing them. Chrysler puts dry Blue Loctite on their replacement bolts and SunCoast recommends Red Loctite with the same torque. When I did mine, I could not get my bending bar inch-pound torque wrench into position, so I put a twelve point socket into the bending bar torque wrench and calibrated my click type torque wrench and torqued up the bolts. It is amazing how many Radical Fundamentalist FSM Thumping Dealer Techs will argue of the virtues of using the exact torque in the FSM and then grab a out of calibration click type torque wrench that may be 25% or more off in either direction.
If you have a bolt hole that is damaged there are several ways to fix it with out pulling the torque converter or accidentally drilling a hole in the torque converter, send me a PM if you want the info.
There are lab oil analysis tests to determine if you have damaged friction material, Joe Romas can give you the details.
For me the SunCoast has reduced the 4 cylinder diesel vibration. In fact I have to massage my wife's back more since she doesn't get any massage any more when she rides with me. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:20 am 
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Joe Romas wrote:
Unless your traffic light is on a snow covered or dirt road you have no business being in part time 4 wheel drive :banghead: Part time is for extreme duty like mud sand or snow. You can be tearing it up big time :dizzy:

The Select Track 242 transfer case has a "quirk" when shifting between full time 4wd and 2wd that you must learn to control :SOMBRERO:

I was under the impression that part time was for normal conditions, like slick wet streets and such. And I was told that the full time was for the heave dutie stuff. Am I wrong on this?
I hardly use 4wd on The street except in bad weather conditions. And in Fla when it rains it rains, oily and usually a good layer of water on the road. With my 3 yr old in the truck I take no risks of hydroplaning!


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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:00 pm 
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FastSRT8GC wrote:
Joe Romas wrote:
Unless your traffic light is on a snow covered or dirt road you have no business being in part time 4 wheel drive :banghead: Part time is for extreme duty like mud sand or snow. You can be tearing it up big time :dizzy:

The Select Track 242 transfer case has a "quirk" when shifting between full time 4wd and 2wd that you must learn to control :SOMBRERO:

I was under the impression that part time was for normal conditions, like slick wet streets and such. And I was told that the full time was for the heave dutie stuff. Am I wrong on this?
I hardly use 4wd on The street except in bad weather conditions. And in Fla when it rains it rains, oily and usually a good layer of water on the road. With my 3 yr old in the truck I take no risks of hydroplaning!


Oh boy. You have that backwards. You better read your manual. The part time locks the front and rear drive shafts together for the tough stuff. The full time is for anything because it allows your front and rear drive shafts to spin at different speeds while turning. I hope you didn't do a ton of damage, but that could explain the Jeep crying out for help at stops because the wheels are all trying to spin at the same speed and your drive line is all bound up. Good luck with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:00 pm 
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FastSRT8GC wrote:
I was under the impression that part time was for normal conditions, like slick wet streets and such. And I was told that the full time was for the heave duty stuff. Am I wrong on this?
I hardly use 4wd on The street except in bad weather conditions. And in Fla when it rains it rains, oily and usually a good layer of water on the road. With my 3 yr old in the truck I take no risks of hydroplaning!


Not an uncommon misunderstanding between the different systems in our transfer cases. I think this is why the older XJ's had a sticker on the visor describing when each setting should be used.

viewtopic.php?p=554849#p554849

Quote:
PT/FT refer to the torque bias in the transfer case... the "type" of 4wd. These designations were around long before our transfer case was thought of.

Part-Time (Command-Trac) - Uses a system akin to what we all think of as a traditional 4wd. A big chain directly connecting the front output to input and rear output within the transfer case. This system is designed to aid the vehicle in low traction situations (sand, gravel, loose dirt, snow, ice, etc) and give traction by sending power to both front and rear axles. It is the oldest, simplest, and one of the most reliable variation of multi-function transfer cases (2wd/4wd).

Full-Time (Quadra-Trac) - Uses a system akin to trucks with a traditional Full-time 4wd system, or something like a modern AWD passenger car. These systems are constantly sending power to front and rear outputs without driver input. This allows front and rear outputs to spin at different rates with the addition of a limited slip coupling. Like a traditional LSD, this coupling "locks" the front and rear outputs together if one is beyond the allowable slip rate, like if the rear looses traction. During normal driving on high traction surfaces the front and rear axles will naturally spin at different rates at different times, using the limited slip coupling damage to the drive train is prevented.

We have the choice of both systems in our transfer case. (Selec-Trac). Although the transfer case is slightly weaker than the Command-Trac units, they are still a decent unit. The option of using either a PT or FT torque bias allows us to have 4wd better suited for variations in traction surfaces.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:02 pm 
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FastSRT8GC wrote:
I was under the impression that part time was for normal conditions, like slick wet streets and such. And I was told that the full time was for the heave dutie stuff. Am I wrong on this?


They told you wrong and you've got it backwards :banghead: Full time is for wet roads, snow and ice. In full time the transfer case allows for slightly differing axel rotation that is needed to turn cornors for instance.

Part time has both front and rear differentials locked together and both axels must turn exactly the same. You most likely have been feeling a binding in the front wheels when turning if you were in part time. You can get part time really bound up on dry roads :dead:
Reserve part time for off roading or heavy snow where there's no chanch of dry spots.

Your not the first and won't be the last to get is backwards :JEEPIN:

Now with that in mind you'll notice that part time is between 2wd and fulltime 4wd on the selector handle. Due to the innerds of the 242 t/c if you don't "humor" it in some manner it will stick in parttime 4wd even though the selector is in 2wd and there's no light lit.
There are several ways to get it to shift to where you want it to :furious: On both my jeeps with this t/c by pausing in part time while moving for a short distance it will then shift into 2wd when I put it there. Others say to stop and back up. But that's kind of hard to do on a interstate :dizzy: Still others say to "bump" the throttle but that does not work for me :ALONE:

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:10 pm 
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I have no documentation, I purchased it used. It is a 2005 pre ESP. I have accidentally had it in full-time on pavement after being off road and I can assure you it locks up/ binds in Full time and is ok in part time. Unless I am confused about their position on the lever. In order, first comes p/t, then f/t and finally low????


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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Joe Romas wrote:
[
Now with that in mind you'll notice that part time is between 2wd and fulltime 4wd on the selector handle. Due to the innerds of the 242 t/c if you don't "humor" it in some manner it will stick in parttime 4wd even though the selector is in 2wd and there's no light lit.
There are several ways to get it to shift to where you want it to :furious: On both my jeeps with this t/c by pausing in part time while moving for a short distance it will then shift into 2wd when I put it there. Others say to stop and back up. But that's kind of hard to do on a interstate :dizzy: Still others say to "bump" the throttle but that does not work for me :ALONE:


I make sure I am driving in a straight line at below 5mph, drop the trans into Neutral, push the t-case lever from FT to PT as though that is where I wanted it, then PT to 2wd. This pause is less than a second, but a defined stop. Once the t-case is in 2wd, I pop back into Drive and away I go. This method allows the chain guts some time/rev's to engage and disengage the pawls, chains, dogs, clutches, etc inside the t-case, and prevents any "clunking" during shifting. By disconnecting the engine power from the drivetrain, you prevent binding during shifting.... like a mountain bike, you NEVER shift while mashing the pedals, off load the drivetrain then make your selections.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:16 pm 
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FastSRT8GC wrote:
I have no documentation, I purchased it used. It is a 2005 pre ESP. I have accidentally had it in full-time on pavement after being off road and I can assure you it locks up/ binds in Full time and is ok in part time. Unless I am confused about their position on the lever. In order, first comes p/t, then f/t and finally low????


Your t-case should be;

2wd - PT - FT - N - L

The lights on your dash should indicate where the lever "should" have the t-case, but they are not always perfect. FT is green for a reason, you can use it anytime, PT is amber... for caution.

Remember, the FT setting is a clutch based LSD within the t-case, if you have slight variation in F/R rotation, say you aired down further in the front, causing the tires to have more rev's per mile, you will be forcing the LSD to engage, which will cause it to bind a bit. You will also get some binding at full lock when in FT on high-traction surfaces. This is because there is, again, a drastic difference in F/R rotation.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:27 pm 
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The only time I use P/T FWD (1st position up from 2WD) is when pulling a trailer in mud off road ( :banghead: ) or in snow >6". I use fulltime when slipping off the road for a short jaunts, don't want to spin tires on wet grass or in snow/dry-road situations. I was confused at first too but I remembered that Consumer Reports always calls the Ford trucks 4WD systems part-time and Chevy 4WD systems full-time (in most situations) which made me look in the owners manual to see what I had...

I would have your transfer case oil changed and asses the damage with a strong magnet before opening her up and swapping gears.

I hope not having a manual didn't cost you some serious money :cry: .

Boilermaker2

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:33 pm 
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2005
http://www.onlinefreeebooks.net/go.php?url=http://www.jeep.com/download/pdf/manuals/2005_KJ_Liberty.pdf
2006
http://www.onlinefreeebooks.net/automotive-machinery-power-equipment-ebooks/jeep/2006-jeep-liberty-kj-owners-manual-pdf.html

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:33 pm 
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boilermaker2 wrote:

I hope not having a manual didn't cost you some serious money :cry: .

Boilermaker2


First mod I made to my '05 when I bought it used was a $18 owners manual kit with bag off eBay.

OP: Check under the left rear seat for a small green canvas bag. Seems there is a little place for the owners kit to fit perfectly there, it's where I keep mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:39 pm 
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If you look in the glove box, you will see a slot just above the main glove box. You will have to bend down because it is hidden by the "ya-hoooo!" bar just above the glove box. Your manual and canvas bag will fit snuggly into this slot. This is where the manual/bag combo were orginally placed when they rolled off the factory floor...

Slide it in velcro tab first and you'll see it goes in easier.

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Tow Package
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Goodyear Wrangler SilentArmor Tires
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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Quote:
OP: Check under the left rear seat for a small green canvas bag. Seems there is a little place for the owners kit to fit perfectly there, it's where I keep mine.


This is where I store I my A/C, D/C converter :SOMBRERO:

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Joe Romas wrote:
[
Now with that in mind you'll notice that part time is between 2wd and fulltime 4wd on the selector handle. Due to the innerds of the 242 t/c if you don't "humor" it in some manner it will stick in parttime 4wd even though the selector is in 2wd and there's no light lit.
There are several ways to get it to shift to where you want it to :furious: On both my jeeps with this t/c by pausing in part time while moving for a short distance it will then shift into 2wd when I put it there. Others say to stop and back up. But that's kind of hard to do on a interstate :dizzy: Still others say to "bump" the throttle but that does not work for me :ALONE:


I make sure I am driving in a straight line at below 5mph, drop the trans into Neutral, push the t-case lever from FT to PT as though that is where I wanted it, then PT to 2wd. This pause is less than a second, but a defined stop. Once the t-case is in 2wd, I pop back into Drive and away I go. This method allows the chain guts some time/rev's to engage and disengage the pawls, chains, dogs, clutches, etc inside the t-case, and prevents any "clunking" during shifting. By disconnecting the engine power from the drivetrain, you prevent binding during shifting.... like a mountain bike, you NEVER shift while mashing the pedals, off load the drivetrain then make your selections.





NO need to go the N before shifting. I do back off my speed to under 40 mph though.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:31 pm 
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and nobody else mentioned this so I will (I also have a 3 year old at home)

Four wheel drive will do NOTHING to prevent hydroplaning. Good tires and slow speed are the ONLY thing that helps that I am afraid. Hydroplaning is simply your tires getting up on top on the water with enough speed to stay there and you have virtually no traction, it is worse than just ice. The only way to get out of the hydroplane is to slow down enough that the vehicle weight forces the tires thru the surface tension of the water and down to the road under the tire.

Four wheel drive also does NOTHING to help you stop, good tires, slow speed and good brakes do that.

So what is 4 wheel drive actually good for? Getting you there at a slow speed in conditions that offer poor traction (sand, mud, snow, ice, uneven surface) where other vehicles will get stuck.

REMEMBER that 4 wheel drive will get you going in those conditions, it will also get you going too fast to stop or turn in those conditions and cause you MUCH worse problems than if you just could not have driven a 2 wheel drive vehicle.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:38 pm 
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cerich wrote:
and nobody else mentioned this so I will (I also have a 3 year old at home)

Four wheel drive will do NOTHING to prevent hydroplaning. Good tires and slow speed are the ONLY thing that helps that I am afraid. Hydroplaning is simply your tires getting up on top on the water with enough speed to stay there and you have virtually no traction, it is worse than just ice. The only way to get out of the hydroplane is to slow down enough that the vehicle weight forces the tires thru the surface tension of the water and down to the road under the tire.

Four wheel drive also does NOTHING to help you stop, good tires, slow speed and good brakes do that.

So what is 4 wheel drive actually good for? Getting you there at a slow speed in conditions that offer poor traction (sand, mud, snow, ice, uneven surface) where other vehicles will get stuck.

REMEMBER that 4 wheel drive will get you going in those conditions, it will also get you going too fast to stop or turn in those conditions and cause you MUCH worse problems than if you just could not have driven a 2 wheel drive vehicle.


Yup X2, 4 wheel drive but only four wheel brakes, not eight wheel brakes.

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Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:00 pm 
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4wd aside - the vibration could also be an engine mount - they break internally and rattle a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Vibration NORMAL?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:28 pm 
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cerich wrote:
and nobody else mentioned this so I will (I also have a 3 year old at home)

Four wheel drive will do NOTHING to prevent hydroplaning. Good tires and slow speed are the ONLY thing that helps that I am afraid. Hydroplaning is simply your tires getting up on top on the water with enough speed to stay there and you have virtually no traction, it is worse than just ice. The only way to get out of the hydroplane is to slow down enough that the vehicle weight forces the tires thru the surface tension of the water and down to the road under the tire.

Four wheel drive also does NOTHING to help you stop, good tires, slow speed and good brakes do that.

So what is 4 wheel drive actually good for? Getting you there at a slow speed in conditions that offer poor traction (sand, mud, snow, ice, uneven surface) where other vehicles will get stuck.

REMEMBER that 4 wheel drive will get you going in those conditions, it will also get you going too fast to stop or turn in those conditions and cause you MUCH worse problems than if you just could not have driven a 2 wheel drive vehicle.




It helps you keep control....keep the car from spinning, rather than swopping ends.

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