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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:04 pm 
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NJCRD wrote:
After 15,000 + miles. I drive hard, with a lot of stop and go city driving. There are after market pads that granted may help stop a little better but that is usually negligible when factors such as are the pads designed to have a little heat in them in order to work best? These are factory Mopar Rotors from frozen rotors with Mopar pads from moparpartsamerica.com
Stopping is amazing with no fade or warping. No dust. You'll appreciate them in heavy rain.

Image


So far they look good and not blue(rotors). Keep an eye on the holes to make sure they spiderweb evenly. As soon as you see 2 holes connect with a crack, stop driving an get a replacement ASAP. Once this happens the structure of the rotor face is comprimised and must be replaced. If you continue to drive and the rotor fails, a lot of very bad things can happen. I got away with a flat spotted race slick and no suspension/car damage.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Thanks. I usually give a quick visual when I do my air downs/air ups on the weekends as well as when I was the truck from all the sand that collects everywhere.
I agree, last thing I need is an exploded rotor.
:grim:

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:58 pm 
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What to look for. normal cracking on a drilled rotor:
Image

What you don't want to see:
Image

In both pictures you can see the blueing of the rotors. Mine are very blue from the heat and hard braking but I continue to drive to cool them down when they are hot.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Of curiosity, have you tried the cryogenic brakes?
I raced with them for years and know several that road race and have gone 3 plus seasons on the same rotors with no issue.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:00 pm 
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jinstall wrote:
What to look for. normal cracking on a drilled rotor:
Image


You don't want to see any cracks in your rotors,even those tiny ones can lead to major failure real quick.If your rotors are blue your over driving your brakes and will also cause failure(brake fade).


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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:13 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
jinstall wrote:
What to look for. normal cracking on a drilled rotor:
Image


You don't want to see any cracks in your rotors,even those tiny ones can lead to major failure real quick.If your rotors are blue your over driving your brakes and will also cause failure(brake fade).


No no one wants to see cracks in their rotors but if you have drilled rotors, you get them no matter what you do. The only way to keep from getting them is to not drive. I think that has been established. I have not surpassed the heat color bars on the rotors so the rotors are fine and operating within their heat parameters. Blueing of the rotors is normal under heavy braking. Kind of like "chicken stripes" on the rear of a sport bike.

Here is DBA's info on the Thermo-Graphic Heat Paint http://www.dbadirect.com.au/thermal-paint-marking

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Last edited by jinstall on Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:15 pm 
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NJCRD wrote:
Of curiosity, have you tried the cryogenic brakes?
I raced with them for years and know several that road race and have gone 3 plus seasons on the same rotors with no issue.

No I have been using Brembo Max rotors and Ferodo DS2500 pads for many years now without failure. The car brakes so well that most people get sick from being tossed around in the car.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:47 pm 
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jinstall wrote:

No no one wants to see cracks in their rotors but if you have drilled rotors, you get them no matter what you do. The only way to keep from getting them is to not drive.

And that is why many racing venues are moving away from them and restricting there use,they are not safe for racing and less safe for daily driving.


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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:12 am 
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And where is this moratorium on the use of drilled rotors? I have not seen anything from NASA, SCCA, DMSB or FIA on this.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:49 am 
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jinstall wrote:
And where is this moratorium on the use of drilled rotors? I have not seen anything from NASA, SCCA, DMSB or FIA on this.

F1 brakes.............
Image

Nascar(typical)...........
Image

Quote:
AP Racing:
"Grooves improve 'cleaning' of the pad surfaces and result in a more consistent brake performance. Grooved discs have a longer life than cross-drilled discs."

Baer:
"What are the benefits to Crossdrilling, Slotting, and Zinc-Washing my rotors? In years past, crossdrilling and/or Slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads...However, with today's race pad technology, 'outgassing' is no longer much of a concern...Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer's offerings."

Darrick Dong; Director of Motorsports at Performance Friction: "Anyone that tells you that drilling makes the disc run cooler is smoking crack."

Waren Gilliand:
(Warren Gilliland is a well-known brake engineer in the racing industry and has more than 32 years experience in custom designing brake systems ...he became the main source for improving the brake systems on a variety of different race vehicles from midgets to NASCAR Winston Cup cars.) "If you cross drill one of these vented rotors, you are creating a stress riser that will encourage the rotor to crack right through the hole. Many of the rotors available in the aftermarket are nothing more than inexpensive offshore manufactured stock replacement rotors, cross drilled to appeal to the performance market. They are not performance rotors and will have a corresponding high failure rate"

Grassroots Motorsports:
"Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the '40s and 50s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a process known as "gassing out." ...It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the some gassing out phenomenon as the early pads. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads--sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it...Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?)

Power Slot:
"At one time the conventional wisdom in racing circles was to cross-drill brake rotors to aid cooling and eliminate the gas emitted by brake pads. However, today's elite teams in open wheel, Indy and Trans Am racing are moving away from crack prone, cross-drilled brake rotors in favor of rotors modified with a fatigue resistant slotting process."

Stop Tech:
"StopTech provides rotors slotted, drilled or plain. For most performance applications slotted is the preferred choice. Slotting helps wipe away debris from between the pad and rotor as well as increasing the "bite" characteristics of the pad. A drilled rotor provides the same type of benefit, but is more susceptible to cracking under severe usage. Many customers prefer the look of a drilled rotor and for street and occasional light duty track use they will work fine. For more severe applications, we recommend slotted rotors." (Note that even though Stop Tech sells both drilled and slotted rotors they do not recommend drilled rotors for severe applications.)

Wilwood:
Q: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted?
A: Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity."


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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:34 pm 
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If money is no object as is the case with F1, carbon fiber brakes like they run seem pretty cool.
Don't know how long one would get out of them though for the street.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:39 pm 
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NJCRD wrote:
If money is no object as is the case with F1, carbon fiber brakes like they run seem pretty cool.
Don't know how long one would get out of them though for the street.

Besides cost($4000+ per wheel) they need to be super heated before actually working,somewhere in the 2000+ degree range before they actually bite.


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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:35 pm 
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I raise you:

BTCC:Image

Audi OEM R8/S8/RS6:
Image

DTM Opel Astra(holes are filled):
Image

OEM Porsche:
Image

OEM and I am not going to look them up: MB, AMG, Maserati, Ferrari, Lotus, Maybach, Alfa Romeo, Jaguar, Rolls Royce, Bentley, TVR, Ford, Chevrolet, Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, Ducati, BMW, Zonda, Trek, Mongoose, Diamond Back, Cannondale, etc.

Is it old? yes, dying off? probably but for now and the near future, it is the standard.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:37 pm 
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NJCRD wrote:
If money is no object as is the case with F1, carbon fiber brakes like they run seem pretty cool.
Don't know how long one would get out of them though for the street.


They do not run cooler but have a higher operating temperature. In 2000, F1-Mercedes was winning races left and right when they started using carbon brakes. When I was in Imola for the F1 race, the braking zones were very different from MB and the rest of the field.

If the OP wants to know what the best brakes are and they could purchase and money was not an issue, I would recommend Mov'It in Germany. Thye will custom make you a set of 355mm for the front and a set of 328mm for the rear for around $11,000 plus shipping. A friend of mine and I have driven his car, has this setup on his 1999 Camaro SS set up for the Nuerburgring and Hockenheimring as well as the autobahn. The car at the track stops like it has a 500lb anchor on it and at 180mph stops like a LeMans race car. When it is hot out and the brakes are hot, it makes all kinds of noise when stopping.

http://www.movitbrakes.com/en/kompetenzen/suv/

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Last edited by jinstall on Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:08 pm 
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jinstall wrote:
NJCRD wrote:
If money is no object as is the case with F1, carbon fiber brakes like they run seem pretty cool.
Don't know how long one would get out of them though for the street.


They do not run cooler but have a higher operating temperature. In 2000, F1-Mercedes was winning races left and right when they started using carbon brakes. When I was in Imola for the F1 race, the braking zones were very different from MB and the rest of the field.

If the OP wants to know what the best brakes they could purchase and money was not an issue, I would recommend Mov'It in Germany. Thye will custome make you a set of 355mm for the front and a set of 328mm for the rear for around $11,000 plus shipping. A friend of mine and I have driven his car, has this setup on his 1999 Camaro SS set up for the Nuerburgring and Hockenheimring as well as the autobahn. The car at the track stops like it has a 500lb anchor on it and at 180mph stops like a LeMans race car. When it is hot out and the brakes are hot, it makes all kinds of noise when stopping.

http://www.movitbrakes.com/en/kompetenzen/suv/

The Op is looking for the best brakes,drilled rotors are not even close to the best brakes.


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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:02 pm 
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In regards to checking brake fluid, you suppose to measure the dissolved copper content in the fluid. When the level is sufficiently high, it's time change it out. You can get the test strips from your local autoparts store.


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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:20 pm 
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My wife calls me and the board the nerd forum, but honestly I love it.
How a simple question that started for an upgrade to a stock brake system has turned into an all out education in braking. No offense fellow lost guys with the nerd comment.
I just love learning new things.
With regards to the racing, I'm into nascar and will watch F1 when I'm up on a sun morning. Very impressive technological machines. The racing is eh, but whatever. And before anyone says it, nascar hasn't been much better the past 15 years.
I guess we can start a new thread. Does anyone watch the LeMans series with the audi tdi? If you won the lottery would you pay for the R8 with a detuned LeMans diesel race engine?
Count me in for a yes, oh and big slotted and crossed drilled rotor :jester: s

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:58 pm 
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Your brakes primary purpose is to transfer kinetic energy into thermal energy and to also dissipate that thermal energy. Cross drilling of rotors aides in the cooling process by giving the rotor more surface area from which to dissipate heat. Seems counter intuitive to drill holes to add surface area, but indeed it does. (think activated charcoal) You can keep increasing the size of a rotor to give more thermal storage, but without increasing the surface area where will the heat go? Wheels? No problem they are excellent at conducting heat from the rotors. Calipers? Not good excessive heat here will cause brake fluid to boil. Wheel bearings? Again bad news, more heat more friction, increased wear, shortened lifespan. Then there is the problem of cooling the rotors evenly... Have a look at motorcycle brakes for example. Esp. the new petal rotor designs. You can drill or cut the rotor to a certain point before you have too little mass to handle the thermal load. Up to that point adding surface area increases the brakes ability to dissipate heat, but eventually you hit a wall. Anyone feel free to add or correct me.


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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:16 am 
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robotmind wrote:
Your brakes primary purpose is to transfer kinetic energy into thermal energy and to also dissipate that thermal energy. Cross drilling of rotors aides in the cooling process by giving the rotor more surface area from which to dissipate heat. Seems counter intuitive to drill holes to add surface area, but indeed it does. (think activated charcoal) You can keep increasing the size of a rotor to give more thermal storage, but without increasing the surface area where will the heat go? Wheels? No problem they are excellent at conducting heat from the rotors. Calipers? Not good excessive heat here will cause brake fluid to boil. Wheel bearings? Again bad news, more heat more friction, increased wear, shortened lifespan. Then there is the problem of cooling the rotors evenly... Have a look at motorcycle brakes for example. Esp. the new petal rotor designs. You can drill or cut the rotor to a certain point before you have too little mass to handle the thermal load. Up to that point adding surface area increases the brakes ability to dissipate heat, but eventually you hit a wall. Anyone feel free to add or correct me.


Nicely put.

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 Post subject: Re: how do I get the best brakes money can buy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:18 am 
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NJCRD wrote:
My wife calls me and the board the nerd forum, but honestly I love it.
How a simple question that started for an upgrade to a stock brake system has turned into an all out education in braking. No offense fellow lost guys with the nerd comment.
I just love learning new things.
With regards to the racing, I'm into nascar and will watch F1 when I'm up on a sun morning. Very impressive technological machines. The racing is eh, but whatever. And before anyone says it, nascar hasn't been much better the past 15 years.
I guess we can start a new thread. Does anyone watch the LeMans series with the audi tdi? If you won the lottery would you pay for the R8 with a detuned LeMans diesel race engine?
Count me in for a yes, oh and big slotted and crossed drilled rotor :jester: s


Don't forget Pug, they were putting it to Audi before they broke this year at LeMans. They have been very strong over the past 4 years.

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