Well Bub. . . when ya wanna pull the head?


Has it thrown any codes at all? Any smoke from the tailpipe while its running - white, black, or otherwise?

Here's a thought - the EGR pipe runs around the back of the engine and enters the intake on the bottom driver's side. Is it possible that if the EGR pipe broke at the intake end, that it would make that sound? And would it cause it to run like that? (My first thought watching the vid was exhaust leak at the manifold) Bub is running the SEGR too, though - how would that affect exhaust gas even entering the pipe?

There's a pic on here that Sir Sam posted of the side of a 2.5 CRD, should look pretty much the same as a 2.8. Lemme see if I can find it.

Here it is, you can see where the EGR pipe enters the intake just behind where the CAC hose fits on:

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Keith,I have an Actron obdII autoscanner(orange one).I bought it years ago when working on my wifes old Saturn.I don't know if it is up to date.It originally threw a PO299.This was the only code till I unplugged the injectors,which then threw PO201-PO204(injectors open circuits).Keith,I actually just turned the engine over when unplugging the injectors,not while running.Should I try that?
I would like to run any test possible.Thanks a million.









LW,there was no smoke at all comming from the pipe,i went right up to it and had very little smell.
I went over this thing well with a flashlight looking for anything.There was no oil excreting from anywhere on that side except from the bottom of the EGR/Samco connection at the bottom.Normal seepage.

As for pulling the head....I'm game if it needs to be done.
I've heard of lift partys,but no one'll show to this gig.

_________________
Bub
06 Inop Edition CRD Silver
06 Inop Edition CRD Green

Oil shouldn't be coming out there, exhaust would be if it was broken, unless the actual (disabled via SEGR) EGR valve is on the turbo side of the exhaust manifold.

I'm up for a head pullin party, but man. . .

Let's see what wiser and cooler heads may say about a broken EGR pipe or flange. Maybe mr mopar will chime in, too.

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I'll be sleeping in the backyard before this is all over.
Wifey not so happy.



What Sam Beckett said.

_________________
Bub
06 Inop Edition CRD Silver
06 Inop Edition CRD Green

"Oh, boy. . . "?

_________________
In this war of lines, so many have been crossed. Where will it all stop?

2006 Deep Beryl Green CRD Sport *SOLD 1/22/12*
Provent, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Samcos, GDE ECO & TCM Tune, Euro JK TC, Magnaflow Catback
245/70/16 Destination A/T's
Boiler's Radiator Skid Plate
Jeepin' By Al 2.5 inch Adjust-A-Strut Lift, JBA Gen 4.5 UCA's (6/5/10)

That picture of the engine must be a 2.5L unit. The EGR valve on our CRD is glued to the driver's side of the block, right behind where that tube connects with the intake. The EGR system is actually TWO tubes, with 4 associated connections.

Bub, at this point I have to agree with the assessment that it is time to pull the top of the engine and have a look. Hopefully you can dig through the service manual and find out how to pull the upper portion of the intake and the valve cover so you can see the rockers, BEFORE you need to break the timing system down. I don't know for certain on that one however, it is just how I would approach it.

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Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

To me it sounds like it's running on only 3 cylinders.

If you want to take the top of, the cams come with it. Lots of work.

You can test compression first, take out the glowplugs and fit a suitable tester to the glow plug hole.

I would stop starting it until you know what's wrong with it.

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Actually Tony, what you just posted made something click mentally for me. Bub tried turning the engine over with the injectors unplugged. He got an expected code... But no unexpected or bad sounds.

If there was a rocker (or rockers) already broken, or really anything else mechanical at work here... Wouldn't that STILL be in evidence without any possibility of fueling?

Bub - Try this idea on for size before you get the wrenches out again: Unplug all 4 injectors again, and give the engine a spin. Verify that you don't hear anything like you did... Just to be certain. Then one-by-one, plug in ONE injector at a time and leave the other three out, and give it another spin. I'm not expecting the engine to start at all, but you SHOULD be able to hear that one cylinder fire. Hopefully the buggy cylinder at least makes itself known.

Alternately, try the same test but with only one cylinder UN-plugged at a time. The engine *should* be able to run on three cylinders, but I wouldn't suggest it for long. My TDI ran on just 3 cylinders when it lost that injector line to the #2 injector... And oddly enough, the engine sounded almost normal.

You might also have an injector out of sequence on the colors. I just looked on mine, and the colors of one wire on each plug are (Front to back) orange, yellow, a pale-greenish, and pink. You could have two of them swapped. I know that on my old gas engines, if I had a plug wire misrouted, it would make some VERY interesting noises while running.

This could be something as simple as the injector wires between #2 and #3 are swapped, I don't know. Or it could be that one of your injectors (going to guess #1 based on your description of listening) might be sticking somehow or drooling.

I'm no longer convinced that this would have anything to do with the cylinder pressures or the rockers, simply b/c without fuel... It didn't make the noise. That tells me that this is related to combustion. Happening at the wrong time, wrong sequence, or somehow in the wrong place. The video to me, is inconclusive. The engine doesn't sound like it ever got up to full idle RPM, which would track with the air-in-fuel problem.

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Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

I talked to Keith today and he suggested that I try to unplugg injectors one at a time while running.I did this and when I pulled the number one injector(clostest to front of Jeep),it made it run ruff enough to want to kill,so I plugged it back in.The other three injectors had minimal change in the way the engine ran.Last that I spoke with Keith,I told him what I've found,and he decided I should try to bleed injectors 2,3,and4.
I blead(to the best of my ability)the injectors and still no change.
I tip my hat to anyone who has blead the #4 injector.Not easy.




Toni,I wish that I didn't have to start it,but it seems to be the only way to troubleshoot at this point.Trust me,I really wish I didn't have to.



Here is a video of the engine running.

_________________
Bub
06 Inop Edition CRD Silver
06 Inop Edition CRD Green

What Sam Beckett said.

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In this war of lines, so many have been crossed. Where will it all stop?

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245/70/16 Destination A/T's
Boiler's Radiator Skid Plate
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Well, I am sticking to what I said before. I am still saying that it sounds just like what I experienced except that the noise and rattle coming from Bubs engine is way toned down compared to what I heard in mine. I believed that my engine was about ready to explode, the loud knocking caused me to raise my arms to protect my face from possible shrapnel.

Matter of fact, after listening to Bubs recent video, I noticed that the engine rattle and noise has toned down bit.

So I am sticking to my guns and saying, I think he needs to let her run longer, Can't hurt.

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Bub it may be time to break down and have it towed to an independent diesel shop, even if just for a diagnosis. If you get a diagnosis and want to tackle it yourself, I'm game to help. You know any dieselheads on the jobsite that can recommend a good diesel mechanic - not a dealership?

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In this war of lines, so many have been crossed. Where will it all stop?

2006 Deep Beryl Green CRD Sport *SOLD 1/22/12*
Provent, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Samcos, GDE ECO & TCM Tune, Euro JK TC, Magnaflow Catback
245/70/16 Destination A/T's
Boiler's Radiator Skid Plate
Jeepin' By Al 2.5 inch Adjust-A-Strut Lift, JBA Gen 4.5 UCA's (6/5/10)

Tony, I understand the hesitance in asking Bub to keep running the engine, but in all honesty... If there was mechanical damage happening or just happened, the engine wouldn't be running consistently. When mine died, it was rattling all over the place and the idle couldn't be maintained. When the rockers broke after the timing jumped, it halted instantly. I'm still firm in my belief that this is NOT a mechanical issue, at least not with a piston coming apart or 16 cracked rockers.

Bub: I watched both videos several times. Its interesting that the one where you don't start it has that pinging noise. The noise seems to happen at the same pace, once every full engine cycle, or 2 revs. It *could* be that there is a valve seat (I'm going to guess here and say intake side) that isn't closing fully, as the sound could be the compression escaping... But in thinking about that, IF the valve wasn't closing, then the pressure would escape twice - once every full rev, and it wouldn't be a POP like that, it would be more of a hissing like steam escaping a valve. So I don't think it is a burnt valve at the moment. This seems like a pressure is allowed to build, and it is getting either rapidly released OR it is forcing past some barrier to escape.

I know how fast a missing spark plug (or free-arcing wire) ticks at full idle (1000 rpm), this is half that fast. Its interesting only because in the absence of fuel, everything else should be happening twice every full cycle, every time the piston comes to the top. This sound seems like it is only every other TDC event, like a spark plug arc. The starter should be putting the engine at around 400-500 RPM for starting, and that means about 1 TDC every quarter-second. This sound is about every half-second.

At this point, my logic is running out. I can't reason out anything that WOULDN'T be happening with every single TDC mechanically. This can easily be a compression issue, but I can't figure out how it could be popping like it is. If there was a leak at the glow plug, it would be hissing. Ditto for the valves. I don't think the injector is leaking pressure OUT to the air, but I think that would be a hiss as well.
Now... If the injector ITSELF is allowing pressure back through into the rail... That would be an interesting failure! I still don't know why that would only be once every two TDC events like it sounds like... But thats all I've got.

The only other thought I have is that SOMEHOW the injector is still allowing fuel into the cylinder even though it is unplugged. This is (to me anyway) starting to sound like the most plausible failure because of the timing of those pings. On each TDC, your engine is either at the end of the compression OR exhaust stroke. ONLY on the compression have the valves remained closed to build pressure... So if the injector is damaged and drooling, then there might be just enough fuel available to cause a detonation - PING! And it would be uncontrolled, so it would make the engine run weird. On the next TDC, the exhaust valves were open, so drooling fuel would just collect in the top of the piston.

I typed up all of this so that everyone can follow the reasoning and hopefully find some flaw with my logic that leads to the solution. At this point, I DO think this is related to only the #1 cylinder, and I'm starting to believe that swapping that injector out should be the next step... Not purging fuel lines or anything else. If there was still an air issue, the other injectors would have also behaved oddly when unplugged. No appreciable idle difference when only one of the others is out, is about what I expected from the engine. That tracks with how my TDI behaved on 3 cylinders. The random firing when #1 was unplugged also says it is behaving in an uncontrolled manner... Like it has fuel in the chamber when it shouldn't.

The rail is under 4,000 psi at idle according to my scan tool, so if the element in the injector got hurt by an air eruption, I can easily understand how it might allow some drooling.

Thoughts from the gallery?

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Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Bub,

The video showing the cranking without injection is a good indication that there is a mechanical issue. I counted 16 pings in roughly 8 seconds, this translates into 120rpm for cranking speed. Typically this engine cranks (without injection) at around 150-250rpm, but considering the noise and internal resistance then 120 sounds about right. The temp of the oil is the driving factor for cranking speed and yours is cold.

To me is sounds like a piston is hitting a valve or an imbedded chunk of glow plug, etc. The core engine is very stong and can run in bad condition as long as the timing belt is still intact.

With the injectors unplugged there is no fuel injection, if it was a bad injector (leaking into cylinder) you would have seen smoke from the tail pipe in some form.

At this point, you need to make a decision. Are you ready to tackle a teardown yourself and do you have a place/tools to complete the job? If not, then a diesel mechanic is your best bet, but this could get expensive...

If you decide to do it yourself, we can provide procedures, torque specs and techical assistance to help you along the way. Sorry about the situation you are in.

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Bub,

There is something weird going on here:

When you disconnect N#1 injector the engine dies (or almost). When you unplug the others almost nothing happens...is that correct?

There is a funny 'hissing' sound right beneath the 'cloink' if you listen carefully. Seems like there is compressed air escaping. Leaking through an injector seal?

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I would say the next step is to pull all 4 injectors and examine them for signs of damage just to rule them out. If one has a damaged seal, that could be the ping sound - compressed air escaping from around the injector. The only issue with that logic is that if that was the case, there should be signs of exhaust or unburnt fuel around the bad injector seal.

_________________
In this war of lines, so many have been crossed. Where will it all stop?

2006 Deep Beryl Green CRD Sport *SOLD 1/22/12*
Provent, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Samcos, GDE ECO & TCM Tune, Euro JK TC, Magnaflow Catback
245/70/16 Destination A/T's
Boiler's Radiator Skid Plate
Jeepin' By Al 2.5 inch Adjust-A-Strut Lift, JBA Gen 4.5 UCA's (6/5/10)

Agreed.


Who says there isn't....

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Solo Liberty en Español: Jeepliberty.es

X2

That sounds like there is definitely mechanical damage to me. And personally, I would NOT run the engine anymore until I tore it down to inspect it. At this point, you may be able to save the engine with a few parts.

I've been involved in many issues like this with gas vehicles... but the diesel in these Jeeps is a little more complicated. You'll want to find good resources and I am sure GDE can help you get information.

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I think he is going to find it on the #1 cylinder. Everything thus far has focused on that cylinder, especially the 3-cylinder-running test. The engine shouldn't show much idle change at all with only one injector unplugged, yet that is exactly what happens when the #1 is unhooked - LOTS of changes in the idle.

I'm not sure exactly what that means tho. Logically, if it was something like a broken glow plug in there, it would be happening all the time, not just change when no fuel, right?

_________________
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TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Play Bub's video, take a step back from the speakers. It sounds like a petrol engine that spit out a plug. I am so thinking injector seal..

Disconnecting the injector should not make any difference if indeed the N#1 is leaking. IF there is a leak there is no or very little compressed air in the cilinder so no or very poor combustion.

That's the part I don't get. Unless the N#1 is the only one that is not leaking...

New idea...take out the injectors and crank it. If the cloink sound is not there, we found it. If it still cloinks, we didn't...

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