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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:00 pm
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Location: Colorado Springs, CO 80925
Made it back in colorado Springs this morning around 9am. Took about 19 hrs despite the snow in wyoming and stopping to help a guy that slid off I-25 and through a barb wire fence. Changed his flat tire and aired it up for him in only 40min and got him on his way. :)

- Mark

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:35 pm 
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Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell... But it is really hot here on Earth...
Welcome back, glad you are back safe. Nice work on the rescue. I will have to remember to bring a chain with me when I head to NYC in January, I might have cause to do likewise for someone on the way back. (Train up, driving back)

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:42 pm 
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Mark,
Glad you are back.
I understand priorities, family comes first.
If anyone has a spare thermostat housing, still looking for one to send in to Mark for the exchange.....
Reading about your travails, might you be second guessing getting rid of the ol' CRD?
Naaa, gassers are so much better.....anyone getting rid of their bad CRD, let me know.
Mine is running so sweet right now I keep pinching myself to see if this is real.
R

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Location: Central Florida
I just ordered a replacement thermostat so I will have a spare in a couple weeks. If Mark is still building these, I'm in for aiding in the swaps if I can end up with a modified unit when he's done. Just let me know the cost and how we proceed.

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Same here. I expect to have my thermostat swapped out with a factory unit fairly soon and will contribute the old "core" to the cause.


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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:00 pm
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Location: Colorado Springs, CO 80925
fastRob wrote:
Mark,
Glad you are back.
I understand priorities, family comes first.
If anyone has a spare thermostat housing, still looking for one to send in to Mark for the exchange.....
Reading about your travails, might you be second guessing getting rid of the ol' CRD?
Naaa, gassers are so much better.....anyone getting rid of their bad CRD, let me know.
Mine is running so sweet right now I keep pinching myself to see if this is real.
R


Well, it basically came down to this...I wanted more ground clearance...ha ha. Also, Italian parts are expensive, Italian motor is somewhat overly complex - why do you need a map AND a maf sensor...lol. Anyway, I had NO problems with my CRD that weren't easily fixed, but long term maintenance could have been expensive if things started going wrong. Theres that couppling on the alternator, occasional sensor issues, the poorly designed puller fuel pump system that is prone to let air in, an egr cooler that can clog, occasional egr issues, expensive dyanmic turbo, difficult to get to simple parts on teh engine, and I never liked a timing belt driven water pump or a timing belt system at all. Also have to pay for emission test in Colorado every 2 years. Most modern full sized american diesels don't have as many possibilites for things to go wrong, but I wanted a SUV. The biggest issue I had with the CRD wasn't the motor, and all in all I did have good experiences with it and would recommend it to others. The main reason I wanted a 99-04 Grand Cherokee is I wanted solid axle so I could lift higher and also Grand has a bit more cargo room. My CRD had a Lift, strut spacers in front and 1/2" poly spacers in back on top of the lift springs. Still not enough clearance.

My ideal SUV would be a 4 door CRD Wrangler Rubicon with a good lift and a 6cyl cummins diesel (which doesn;t exist). Unfortunately in the states I can only get a v6 or smaller engine in the 4 door wranglers. I would want at least a v8 if not the CRD. The other issue w/wranglers is the 4 doors still cost 2x as much as my Grand.

The Grand was a perfect comprimise for now. Solid axle, V8, simple, easy to work on, easy to modify, cheap for parts, reliable, powerful, higher tow capacity (due to longer wheel base), more cargo room, more engine bay room. I paid $12k for a $15k book value vehicle that already had about $5k into it with the lift, tires, bumper, etc. I got lucky...despite the few things that needed fixed I still got a $20K vehicle for only 12k. I made $2k off the CRD (sold for $13k with 99k miles on it) when I sold it and so, amazingly enough, I only owe $10k on the Grand. With a payment that cheap I don't care about the gas mileage as much. I LOVE the V8 instant power and solid reliability. I also love how simple it is to get to things like the water pump, thermostat, etc compared to the CRD. It is also a timing chain motor so the chain sould be good to 200k maybe even 300k miles. Same concept with the dodge charger we have, V8 simple, timing chain, powerful, reliable, safe.
My CRD had a fantastic track record, no issues really, ran fantastic, even better with the GDE hot tune, no torque converter issues, POWERFUL torque band, smoothe, nothing wrong with it whatsoever. The guy who bought it got a superb deal, especially since it had a fresh timing belt, tensioner, idlers, waterpump, thermostat, GDE tune, new intercooler and the emissions were passed right before he bought it so it was good for 2 years. They really are fantastic vehicles, just didn't fit my need anymore.

Here's the CRD right after the lift, sat perfect after the spacers, not too low in front or in back:

Image

Heres a picture of the Grand and my friend Matt kindly posing for perspective of the lift and tire size. The wheels on the CRD are 16's w/ factory sized 29" tires. The wheels on the Grand are 17" w/33" tires for a comparison, its a monster :)

Image

Heres a Pic of the Grand in garage. Top of garage door is 6'10" for reference and she barely fits. :)

Image

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:59 am 
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Location: Backwoods, ME
Mark,
My dream is an Unlimited Jeep Strangler with a 4 cyl diesel and a 4 cyl gasser to get parts. So I have the Liberty, close enough.
I always liked 4 cylinders even as a kid in the 60's with MG's. My Toyota pickup had a double overhead cam 4 cylinder.
My plow truck has a GM 4.8l v-8, a decent motor. Some things only a V-8 will do, that is true.
Your new ride looks great. I wish you luck. You have helped out a lot and I appreciate your efforts greatly.
R

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:00 pm
Posts: 673
Location: Colorado Springs, CO 80925
So far I have geordi, forenic, tdiwyse for the first batch and have done squeeto's core on the side (sent and installed on his rig). geordi has paid and I am not taking any more payments untill I have the units boxed and ready to send. It seems sometimes my time just slipps away and I can't always get things done as fast as I had hoped. I will be doing more work on them this next weekend if I can squeeze it in with an oil change on the charger and a friends car and trans filter/fluid change on the Grand. Again, sorry I can't get to you all sooner, but I will as soon as I can.

UPDATED REQUEST LIST (last update 08 Dec 2010)
geordi - mar28 (Payment received)
forenic - mar30 (core received)
tdiwyse - apr 1
papaindigo - apr 4
squeeto - apr 4 (core received, payment received, unit shipped 27 Sep 2010)
nelson15 - apr27
bugnout - apr27 (core received)
dgeist - apr27
CATCRD (2qty) - apr29
mikey1273 - may1
stoutdog - may9
yakers - july14
fastrob - july31
kdlewis1975 - aug8
westfork - aug13
Gerge - aug16
CRD Joe - 19 Aug
arengant - 07 sep
crawdad-480 - 15 Sep
Unclebob9 - 15 Sep
fnordmorph - 19 Sep
dthdcrd - 24sep
Buster - 24 Sep
kccrd - 24 sep
TJ2 - 27 Sep 2010
Drewd - 28 Sep 2010
racertracer - 07 Oct 2010
mudpup226 - 09 Oct 2010
gsrjax - 23 Oct 2010
Roostre - 27 Oct 2010
striperman36 - 27 Oct 2010
MACKJ - 30 Oct 2010
Sir Sam - 01 Nov 2010
ColoCRD - 01 Nov 2010
AJN - 01 Nov 2010
StanCRD - 05 Nov 2010
Scott Langohr - 15 Nov 2010
Hydraulic Jack - 15 Nov 2010
audiboy86 - 18 Nov 2010
FormerlyBankNote4x4 - 24 Nov 2010
ebenflow - 24 Nov 2010
snowman_crd - 24 Nov 2010
Rich - 08 Dec 2010
WolverineFW - 08 Dec 2010
ChesterCRD - 09 Dec 2010
jdorris - 17 Dec 2010
castnblast - 23 Dec 2010

(remember you do not have to send a core first, it just speeds up production of your unit as it will be done with the very next batch)

If you are not on here and should be please let me know so I can get you in the right spot. Also, if you donated a core and I do not have you on the list let me know so I can give credit to you for your generosity. If you have sent me a core for remanufacturing also make sure it says (core sent) by your name. If not let me know so I can verify and update accordingly.

Remember I will ONLY add people to the list by PM so I can keep an accurate list easier and be fair to everyone.

CORE DONATED LIST:
RTstabler51 (donated for R&D, currently a rolling core used in production, THANKS!)
Allen M. (donated for R&D, currently a rolling core used in production, THANKS!)
onthehunt (donated for R&D, currently a rolling core used in production, THANKS!)
LibertyCRD (donated for R&D, currently a rolling core used in production, THANKS!)
bugnout (core for reman, has xtra core to donate after replacement, THANKS!)
Europachris (core for reman, donated to squeeto, THANKS!)

*There are still some cores I haven't got on the list yet, I have received some adn still need to add to the list.

Also, please include your username in or on your packages so I know who the name on the box matches to on the forum.

Thanks to everyone that donated cores!! This project wouldn't have happened if you were not so kind and it is VERY appreciated!!!

- Mark

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Last edited by kapalczynski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:01 am 
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*UPDATE* Ordered more gasket material, changed design to accommodate thicker buna-n gasket material and to place the thermostat on gasket and intermediate plate side. Before I attempted to work around the issue by placing the thermostat in the base (but had issues with the thermostat not staying centered/sealed during assembly), now the gasket material will be on the base and the thermostat on the gasket material/fit in the recess on the intermediate plate. Ended up scrapping the old gaskets I cut because of this, but this is a better design.

I will have some time coming up to do some more machining around christmass time, I hope the thicker gasket material comes in soon so I can get these better designed units ready. Again sorry for the wait, especially to geordi who is already paid and waiting. Squeeto, once I get this batch of 3 done and shipped I will cut an extra gasket and send you the new gasket (and different pressed in insert if it is needed) for the design update like we talked about.

I am not sure I will have to make the pressed in piece taller to accomidate the change in thermostat location (about 1/16th of an inch higher to 1/8 of an inch higher depending on how much the 1/8" thick gasket material compresses).

Also, the original open thermostat specs were measured with the thermostat in boiling water (was thinking it was about 212*F), but it may indeed open further in the jeep since boiling temp here at 6000ft above sea level (in Colorado Springs, CO) is only 201.0*F so a taller machined insert may not be necessary. However I can't remember what the exact temp on the scangauge was for that thermostat in the jeep when running at operating temp. That is the temp that matters and at that exact temp is where the port should be blocked off.

Squeeto, if you know someone with a scangauge or something to see the exact operating temp of your engine that might be helpful, though I am not sure how much the thermostat open length will change for a coupple degrees if at all.

P.S. Thanks for being understanding while I took some time away from this project for vacation and for working on our new 04 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

The Grand Cherokee's projects all came together well (though there are a few more small ones planned for the near future).

I am turning the Grand cherokee with a nearly undriveable monster lift into a fantastic daily driver and weekend off-roader. Now the GC drives fantastic around town, on the highway and off road. I installed a track bar drop bracket to correct the jeeps suspension geometry due to the previous owner incorrectly installing the drop pitman arm, 6 way adjustable shocks (firm for on road to increase handling and virtually eliminate brake dive and soft setting for off road dirt and rough road driving), installed larger 34mm front swaybar, increased the diameter of the quick disconnect swaybar mount pins by wrapping a heavy duty tape around them to remove the slack in the JKS poorly designed bushings (temporary untill I machine new larger diameter stainless steel ones), installed new heavy duty dual steering stabilizer setup and customized mount hardware to increase ground clearance by relocating the lower stabilizer higher, installed 2" poly spacers above the front springs to level the jeep's ride height. Also did new thermostat/gasket, changed nearly all jeeps fluids (still need to do transmission and power steering and then thats all of them), new valve cover gaskets, new oil pan gasket, oil pressure gauge, new headlight bulbs/adjusted headlights, fog/driving lights.

Jeep now with the 6.5" lift, 2" front spacers, and 33" tires (adds about 2" of height over the factory 29" tires) sits about 9.5" higher than factory in front and 8.5" higher than factory in the rear and has a nice nearly level stance (about 1/2" lower in front than rear measured at frame). The swaybar and modifications to the endlinks increased the jeeps handling abilities substantially. I just drove it on Old stage road (dirt road in mountains near Colorado Springs) in 1/2" of snow and it was fantastic. I actually felt safe gradually increasing speed faster and faster till I got it drifting a bit and got a good feel to how it handles. It understeers a bit which is great for safety. If you come into a corner fast it understeers, then you give it a little brake and it becomes more neutral and you can give it more brake still turning and it oversteers so there is amazing control in the turns now. The shocks prevent unnecessary front end bounce over bumps and have virtually eliminated all brake dive. It is amazing to see a jeep this high stay this level while stopping with the brake pedal to the floor. The brakes are now fantastic and front/rear bias seems perfect and stops very fast. ABS felt good and did not seem too neutering to the brake stopping ability. I was expecting to have to upgrade the brakes or maybe at least the pads due to the larger 33" tires, but they are very good so no need. After several 80mph highway tests, I did a passing speed test and took her up to 100mph and she felt very solid, changed lanes with no drama and brakes were still great at these speeds. I am very happy with this Jeep for a daily driver now. The weekend off roader side of her does great too. The quick disconnect swaybar allows amazing flex (and in fact is necessary if I want ANY flex with the new larger swaybars) and I have plans for the rear disconnect setup, infact I just need to machine some pins and it will be ready. :) The ability to change the dampening of the shocks for off road is great and makes a much nicer off road ride quality. Now I need to install some more MX6 shocks on the rear...another project. :)

Garage Door is 6'10" for reference:

Image

Image
Image

Heres a link to the recent GC projects I have completed in case you're curious:
http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4667481&posted=1#post4667481

- Mark

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:06 am 
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Cool. Thanks for the update!

[waiting with anticipation] :juggle:

:JEEPIN:

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:10 am 
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thanks for the update......waiting here in chilly Centeral PA but know its going to be worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:56 am 
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kapalczynski wrote:
*Squeeto, once I get this batch of 3 done and shipped I will cut an extra gasket and send you the new gasket (and different pressed in insert if it is needed) for the design update like we talked about.

I am not sure I will have to make the pressed in piece taller to accomidate the change in thermostat location (about 1/16th of an inch higher to 1/8 of an inch higher depending on how much the 1/8" thick gasket material compresses).

Also, the original open thermostat specs were measured with the thermostat in boiling water (was thinking it was about 212*F), but it may indeed open further in the jeep since boiling temp here at 6000ft above sea level (in Colorado Springs, CO) is only 201.0*F so a taller machined insert may not be necessary.
- Mark


I don't think that the thermostat is affected by atmospheric pressure and the boil test mostly tests proper operation of the thermostat. Although I did do my measurements with the boil test, in this case, it is not really required. You can physically (with your hand) push the inner part of the thermostat open.

Because the valve seats in a sleeve, there is a distance that the valve travels before it begins to open. I measured the distance from this point to the base of your lower insert to be .07 inch.

If you calculate a curtain area equal to the lower port size, you need this gap to be .066 inch. Perfect if the thermostat is placed directly on the base of the housing.

My thin paper gasket beneath the gasket works fine. A 1/16 buna gasket would be fine. I would start to consider changing the lower insert for an 1/8 inch gasket.

Mark, you measured the original design specifications perfectly. But now add in a thick replaceable gasket (a good idea btw) as an after-thought and it changes the lower gap.

If you need to order more gasket material anyway, you could consider just using the 1/16 inch buna and leave the design as is. At least for the first run. We may find that a little slop is a good thing anyway. Considering the beta test (yours) had no bypass shutoff to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:37 pm 
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22 pages and you kept me on the tip of my chair waiting to jump! :POPCORN:

Good job Mark! I will send you mine next spring if your not to busy :roll: Have fun with your new toy! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:21 pm 
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Squeeto wrote:
kapalczynski wrote:
*Squeeto, once I get this batch of 3 done and shipped I will cut an extra gasket and send you the new gasket (and different pressed in insert if it is needed) for the design update like we talked about.

I am not sure I will have to make the pressed in piece taller to accomidate the change in thermostat location (about 1/16th of an inch higher to 1/8 of an inch higher depending on how much the 1/8" thick gasket material compresses).

Also, the original open thermostat specs were measured with the thermostat in boiling water (was thinking it was about 212*F), but it may indeed open further in the jeep since boiling temp here at 6000ft above sea level (in Colorado Springs, CO) is only 201.0*F so a taller machined insert may not be necessary.
- Mark


I don't think that the thermostat is affected by atmospheric pressure and the boil test mostly tests proper operation of the thermostat. Although I did do my measurements with the boil test, in this case, it is not really required. You can physically (with your hand) push the inner part of the thermostat open.

Because the valve seats in a sleeve, there is a distance that the valve travels before it begins to open. I measured the distance from this point to the base of your lower insert to be .07 inch.

If you calculate a curtain area equal to the lower port size, you need this gap to be .066 inch. Perfect if the thermostat is placed directly on the base of the housing.

My thin paper gasket beneath the gasket works fine. A 1/16 buna gasket would be fine. I would start to consider changing the lower insert for an 1/8 inch gasket.

Mark, you measured the original design specifications perfectly. But now add in a thick replaceable gasket (a good idea btw) as an after-thought and it changes the lower gap.

If you need to order more gasket material anyway, you could consider just using the 1/16 inch buna and leave the design as is. At least for the first run. We may find that a little slop is a good thing anyway. Considering the beta test (yours) had no bypass shutoff to begin with.


My only point with the boiling thing is it may not have opened the thermostat completely at only 201*F (as hot as I can get water here at 6k ft above sealevel). At sea level boiling water is 212*F which would have opened it completely for sure. Opening it by hand may open it further than it would normally? I'm not sure. Anyway, I already ordered the gasket material in 1/8" by 12" by 36" for about $40 That should be enough to do several more gaskets. I agree with the original measurements being good as long as the thermostat was fully open when measured, I checked and doubble checked those. I will assemble and measure the added space after the gasket is compressed. It will probably be about 2mm I will need to add to the machined insert.

Hows the paper gasket holding up? My paper on the original beta unit gradually allowed antifreeze to seep through(noticeable after about 2months), never leaked or even dripped, but it seeped enough for crystals to form around the gasket. That was one of many reasons for the improved gasket idea.

Thanks for the feedback squeeto. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:30 pm 
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OldSkull wrote:
22 pages and you kept me on the tip of my chair waiting to jump! :POPCORN:

Good job Mark! I will send you mine next spring if your not to busy :roll: Have fun with your new toy! :wink:


Thanks! By the way, did you ever install the new factory unit and are you still running a flex fan?

Just curious where you ended up with that idea. You may have already posted on that subject, but I didn't get a change to look at that old thread again. I converted mine back to stock before selling it because the new owner was an older gentleman and hard of hearing and the extra whirring was just a little bit to distracting for him. I still have the flex fan and already shipped the adapter to a friend to help him out on his own project.

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:08 pm 
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kapalczynski wrote:
Hows the paper gasket holding up? My paper on the original beta unit gradually allowed antifreeze to seep through(noticeable after about 2months), never leaked or even dripped, but it seeped enough for crystals to form around the gasket. That was one of many reasons for the improved gasket idea.

Thanks for the feedback squeeto. :)


This is an old pic but I just checked and all is okay. I did coat the paper with blue Permatex.

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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:27 pm 
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I got a ? Squeeto what is the red on what i am guessing is a heater hose in this picture?
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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Mark, you could be very busy making these. I think that they are a good idea.
So any product you buy will get used up.

This is just a thought: for those who want the 1/8 inch, last through the new earth age, gaskets, you can redesign your jigs (different lower insert height) for them later. For now, for those who are waiting, just order a little 1/16 inch material and ship.

The product is essentially finished then; you don't need to draw the old lower insert out with the special tool you may not have yet (the one you described before). Also these people could cut their own gaskets later if they needed with scissors.

Not trying to intrude - just want to save you some time. Maybe those waiting could comment.

Personally, I am happy with the product as is. You don't need to send me the redesigned lower insert or 1/8 inch gasket. The next time I go to replace the thermostat, I will order a sheet of 1/16 inch buna.


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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:35 pm 
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audiboy86 wrote:
I got a ? Squeeto what is the red on what i am guessing is a heater hose in this picture?


Just saw your post. I started a thread on a coolant flush. The picture is from there.
I'll see if I can find it.

edit:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=56486


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 Post subject: Re: 192 Thermostats: New quality testing procedure & picture
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:41 pm 
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kapalczynski wrote:
Thanks! By the way, did you ever install the new factory unit and are you still running a flex fan?


Lift reserve next tuesday (21 December) need to change front brake, thermostat and install back my old clutch fan for the winter, the flex fan will stay on ice for the moment have plenty of time to think about it, no rush :mrgreen:

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