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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Joe Romas wrote:
Sam.

You've hit a nerve :shock:


Glad I could help. :SOMBRERO:

While we are on the subject, for the record, I currently own 3 VWs, a 1991 Vanagon Carat Westy, 1987 Full Westy, and a 1987 Vanagon Syncro.

Guess why I hate VW electrical work? (I'm also close to the end of my rope in regards to mechanical design, but am somewhat more tolerant since I feel that one day I will have done away with all the VW drivetrain)

This is also coming from a former owner of a 99 Eurovan camper. Electrical problems galore.(though I will give credit to your older EV, with the I5 and 5speed you are likely to never experence the pain and frustration that comes with the VR6/auto combination).

Of course, I would have loved for that to have been all moot by being a TDI/5speed/syncro, but that sure doesn't happen in the US.

I compare this to all the XJs I've owned and loved and how problem free they have been(they completely put the KJ to shame).

Window regulators: I'm at the point where I gotta say, it seems like every vehicle has problems with window regulators. Seems like all the VW's I touch have problems, and none of the Jeeps I touch have problems. Including the recent failure of the CRD window regulator that makes TWO Jeep regulators I've ever had to replace. I've given up on counting the number of VW regulators I've had to replace. While I am annoyed with the high failure rate of VW regulators I have had to deal with, I've decided not to hold that up against VW because it seems like someone else would be the opposite, probably never had a problem with a VW regulator, but is at the end of their rope replacing them on their KJ.

Glad I could help with that nerve. :ROTFL:

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:42 pm 
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:ROTFL: Just last weekend I helped my son replace the passenger side power window regulator in his 99 XJ. The passenger side on my wife's 00 XJ is ticking when going up and down so it won't be long.

I think we almost got the TDI eurovan here because it's included in the Bently service manuals I have :BANANA:

I also owned a 1985 Vanagon. Less refined then the Euro but much more space.
While camping last year, actually year before last now, I met a fellow in NC at the Outter Banks with a always up Vanagon diesel powered syncro from Canada. ALL STOCK :POPCORN: He bought it from the original owner in Germany. So he was in NC with French only speaking lady friend and was from Canada and while driving down the road he felt a jolt and it then started pulling left. We looked underneath but nothing obvious. He had just had extensive front end done by VW before leaving Canada. On the way down his vicious clutch started acting up so he didn't even think about taking it on the beach :|
Last June at the campground at Hatterus there was a fellow from Germany who had the meanest, biggest,t baddest 4X4 camper you could imagine. The chassis was Iveco the tires were at least 4 feet tall and it had adjustable air bag suspension on each wheel :!: He had it to Africa amoung other countries. He was going to Oklahoma when he left Hatterus then to Texas to pick up his daughter's boy friend then putting the camper in storage here and going back to Germany. On his return he was going down through Mexico and points south. My wife wonders what he ownes to be able to do that. Here's his web site with pictures. There's a "click here for English" but the German language has more pictures of his past campers. English tells how he had it specially built and a u-tube video of it in the Sahara Desert :ALONE: http://www.sandfloh.net :CAMPING:

On my Vanagon I replaced those two long steel pipes that go from the engine to radiator and back. the head gaskets were a ton of fun too. The hardest thing to track down was the it would be running fine then all of a sudden run like crap. Turns out the wire from the ECM plug to the o2 sensor was coax and the insulation between the inner conductor and outter shield was deterioting and ocassionally shorting out at the o2 end. I sold it when I got the EV. I also owned a 1962 type II pickup truck for a while. Recently there's been a few Vanagon diesels in craig's list that came from out west. I thought about inquiring but only for a second :-)r

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:04 pm 
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I prefer to see new V6 VM 2,9 crd on 2012 JK; KK; WK2 - it`s the same engine as tested for new Cadillac CTS with 250 hp and 550 Nm of torgue:
http://green.autoblog.com/2007/03/06/ge ... an-diesel/

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Joe Romas wrote:
:ROTFL: Just last weekend I helped my son replace the passenger side power window regulator in his 99 XJ. The passenger side on my wife's 00 XJ is ticking when going up and down so it won't be long.

I think we almost got the TDI eurovan here because it's included in the Bently service manuals I have :BANANA:

I also owned a 1985 Vanagon. Less refined then the Euro but much more space.
While camping last year, actually year before last now, I met a fellow in NC at the Outter Banks with a always up Vanagon diesel powered syncro from Canada. ALL STOCK :POPCORN: He bought it from the original owner in Germany. So he was in NC with French only speaking lady friend and was from Canada and while driving down the road he felt a jolt and it then started pulling left. We looked underneath but nothing obvious. He had just had extensive front end done by VW before leaving Canada. On the way down his vicious clutch started acting up so he didn't even think about taking it on the beach :|
Last June at the campground at Hatterus there was a fellow from Germany who had the meanest, biggest,t baddest 4X4 camper you could imagine. The chassis was Iveco the tires were at least 4 feet tall and it had adjustable air bag suspension on each wheel :!: He had it to Africa amoung other countries. He was going to Oklahoma when he left Hatterus then to Texas to pick up his daughter's boy friend then putting the camper in storage here and going back to Germany. On his return he was going down through Mexico and points south. My wife wonders what he ownes to be able to do that. Here's his web site with pictures. There's a "click here for English" but the German language has more pictures of his past campers. English tells how he had it specially built and a u-tube video of it in the Sahara Desert :ALONE: http://www.sandfloh.net :CAMPING:

On my Vanagon I replaced those two long steel pipes that go from the engine to radiator and back. the head gaskets were a ton of fun too. The hardest thing to track down was the it would be running fine then all of a sudden run like crap. Turns out the wire from the ECM plug to the o2 sensor was coax and the insulation between the inner conductor and outter shield was deterioting and ocassionally shorting out at the o2 end. I sold it when I got the EV. I also owned a 1962 type II pickup truck for a while. Recently there's been a few Vanagon diesels in craig's list that came from out west. I thought about inquiring but only for a second :-)r


You know, my drivers side regular has been ticking loudly since I got in in dec of 06. Still works just fine.

I've had a few vanagons, for some reason I just keep going back for punishment. At least those things are old enough and simple enough that you can keep in going. That EV was the worst thing/vehicle/satan's demon spawn I have ever owned.

When I was broke down in white horse yukon a german fellow came by in a uni-mog that he had driven all over the world, I would love to have talked to him more, but I was just trying to get the van going again.

In case you never saw it, I put together a web gallery chronicling my journey:

http://colorado4wheel.com/content/ak/index.html

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Image
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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:10 am 
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"In January 2011, Sergio Marchionne said: “Do I want a future [for diesel light duty Rams]? Do we have the technology to get it done? Absolutely, yes. Do we have the engines to get it done? Absolutely, yes. Is there a market at this time? I don’t know. We can do it all, we have the engines, we have the know-how... and we’d love to do it, but the question is, will it sell. The Jeep Grand Cherokee is available with a 3-liter diesel in Europe, it takes me nothing to move it over here, we have to adapt it for the emissions standards, but is it going to sell here with a 3-liter diesel? ... The Wrangler is available, that’s something I think we need to take a hard look at, because certainly the core performance of that machine would be... there are great attributes of having diesel in a car, that's why they are popular as they are on the heavy duty side of trucks.”

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:04 am 
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That's why they sold the KJ CRD here. To find out "if it will sell". And guess what? Every single one of them was sold as soon as they hit the lots. I heard that the average CRD sat on the lot for less than 30 days, which was 3X less than the average gasoline vehicle. PEOPLE WANT DIESEL. If Chrysler is smart enough to keep making it for the U.S., they'll keep raking in the profits. You'd think they would have learned this from the KJ CRD.

The problem with the WK CRD is that it was $43K new! Nobody is going to spend that kind of money on a midsize SUV. Build the diesel, sell it here for under $30K, and you'll have a hard time keeping up with demand.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:39 am 
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Well another issue now is that they have given up on VM diesels. So there other choices are mini HEAVY cummins or Mercedes blue techs both really nice motors but not at all cheap. My grandfather owns a WK CRD and compared to my CRD it is laggy and rather sluggish. But i am sure GDE is working on that as we speak :twisted:. But i agree completely i think chrysler could be at the top of the mid size SUV market.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Chrysler gave up on the Mercedes engine families in their latest products. The VM Motori 3.0L is currently being developed for the Grand Cherokee and Chrysler 300...only for Export markets at this time. The VM engine is stronger than the Merc with a 250hp rating and a cast iron block.

We would be very happy if Chrysler/Fiat started bringing diesels to the US. Since they have the worst fleet average fuel economy...they must do something huge before the 2016 fuel economy standard are in full effect, otherwise they will have to sell 2 Fiat 500s for every SUV or truck!

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Quote:
The problem with the WK CRD is that it was $43K new! Nobody is going to spend that kind of money on a midsize SUV. Build the diesel, sell it here for under $30K, and you'll have a hard time keeping up with demand.


Hit the nail on the head. How much $ does it take to install a us compliant emission system on a current euro diesel. I would guess at least $10,000 per vehicle. Add that to a basic suv or truck costing $25,000 and your at $35,000 real quick. Adding to the problem, diesel people are notoriously cheap(IMHO, myself included) and no one will buy it. It's no secret why there aren't more diesels here. They have been priced out of the market by government regulation. It's the same backdoor way they are going with firearms/ammo.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:19 pm 
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LibertyCRD wrote:
That's why they sold the KJ CRD here. To find out "if it will sell". And guess what? Every single one of them was sold as soon as they hit the lots. I heard that the average CRD sat on the lot for less than 30 days, which was 3X less than the average gasoline vehicle. PEOPLE WANT DIESEL.

Mine sat on the dealer's lot for four months before I found it :ROTFL:
Granted even some Jeep salesmen didn't even know they existed. Yep, the day I bought mine I went to all the local jeep dealers seeing what was available and actualy found such a salesman :dizzy: It was in late May 06 and one dealer would sell me a totaly equipted 05 demo for $700 off list :-)r Another dealer had a 06 but the master cylinder had been removed to repair a customer's jeep :juggle: At the forth dealer, they had two CRD's, it took two hours to negotiate a deal for cash today and no trade. You can say I made $5000 in those two hours :BINGO:

However being the diesel I only found out about them when the daughter of a family down the block drove by in hers. So they didn't exactly advertise them :ALONE:

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:01 pm 
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onthehunt wrote:
Hit the nail on the head. How much $ does it take to install a us compliant emission system on a current euro diesel. I would guess at least $10,000 per vehicle. Add that to a basic suv or truck costing $25,000 and your at $35,000 real quick.
I think you are over exaggerating the cost of emissions...


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:20 pm 
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GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
Chrysler gave up on the Mercedes engine families in their latest products. The VM Motori 3.0L is currently being developed for the Grand Cherokee and Chrysler 300...only for Export markets at this time. The VM engine is stronger than the Merc with a 250hp rating and a cast iron block.

We would be very happy if Chrysler/Fiat started bringing diesels to the US. Since they have the worst fleet average fuel economy...they must do something huge before the 2016 fuel economy standard are in full effect, otherwise they will have to sell 2 Fiat 500s for every SUV or truck!



And I highly doubt that will happen, since the Fiat 500 is just a TAD bigger than the MB Smart car.

The smart car was built for the urban markets and I hardly ever see one around in the NYC metro area.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:33 pm 
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dieseldoesit wrote:
onthehunt wrote:
Hit the nail on the head. How much $ does it take to install a us compliant emission system on a current euro diesel. I would guess at least $10,000 per vehicle. Add that to a basic suv or truck costing $25,000 and your at $35,000 real quick.
I think you are over exaggerating the cost of emissions...

No not really in the big picture that includes the payroll for all involved and testing.

Heck finding fuel is becoming very hard.On my 7 mile drive to work there are 8 gas stations and not one has diesel.If I had a diesel I would have to drive almost 10 miles out of my way to fill up in a city of 350,000+ poeple.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:26 pm 
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:roll:

Smaller town here with 50k people, it is a college town not a farm town. One out of seven of the stations have diesel. A couple have recently added diesel even. I think as long as there are tractors hauling freight diesel will be available. There is only one with farm diesel though...

Colorado Springs has 226 Gas stations including service stations and convenience stores, 53 sell diesel. One out of four ain't bad...

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Last edited by jdorris on Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:34 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
No not really in the big picture that includes the payroll for all involved and testing.

compared to all the current testing and safety testing and engineering and everything else that is more complicated?

I guess then I would like to know how VW is able to do it and not charge a 10k premium for the diesel, or the 1 ton trucks.. I mean, not only does the change in price include the diesel engine itself, it also includes the associated emissions along with it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:42 pm 
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dieseldoesit wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
No not really in the big picture that includes the payroll for all involved and testing.

compared to all the current testing and safety testing and engineering and everything else that is more complicated?

I guess then I would like to know how VW is able to do it and not charge a 10k premium for the diesel, or the 1 ton trucks.. I mean, not only does the change in price include the diesel engine itself, it also includes the associated emissions along with it.

3/4-1 tons pickups are not tested the same way as smaller vehicles,they don't even rate them for EPA mileage either and yes most of those diesel option are over $6000-$7800 depending on make.

VW has a huge markup on there diesels,or I should say no rebates or special offers and you will pay full MSRP,well everywhere I've looked the VW dealers will not budge 1 cent below MSRP on VW diesels and in most cases they are a few thousand above MSRP and suckers still buy them.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:53 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
3/4-1 tons pickups are not tested the same way as smaller vehicles,they don't even rate them for EPA mileage either
starting in 2010, the diesel emissions are more stringent and will get more stringent in 2012 as well, yes the testing isn't the same, but light duty trucks 3/4 -1 tons are not given a bypass of emissions like their medium duty counterparts.

tjkj2002 wrote:
and yes most of those diesel option are over $6000-$7800 depending on make.
yes, but if it cost 10k for emissions testing, then it cost -4k for the engine, engineering, and research and development costs

tjkj2002 wrote:
VW has a huge markup on there diesels,or I should say no rebates or special offers and you will pay full MSRP,well everywhere I've looked the VW dealers will not budge 1 cent below MSRP on VW diesels and in most cases they are a few thousand above MSRP and suckers still buy them.
so? If we assume that it costs 10k for emisssions testing and the difference between a diesel and non-diesel VW car is less then 10k, then it seems the engine and r&d was all free...

I am not discounting that there is an added cost to developing and putting out a diesel vehicle in the US, but to say it will add 10k to the cost of a 25k vehicle is BS. None of the current vehicles available here back up and support that claim.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:01 pm 
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dieseldoesit wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
3/4-1 tons pickups are not tested the same way as smaller vehicles,they don't even rate them for EPA mileage either
starting in 2010, the diesel emissions are more stringent and will get more stringent in 2012 as well, yes the testing isn't the same, but light duty trucks 3/4 -1 tons are not given a bypass of emissions like their medium duty counterparts.

.

There not given a free ride but there standards are not the same for a VW car with a diesel in it.

The places that still have emission testing done here no diesel get's bypassed but 3 gas vehicles do and can never be tested in my state,the Ford Rapture,H2,and the newer Dodge Power Wagon's so they will always get a free pass.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:05 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
There not given a free ride but there standards are not the same for a VW car with a diesel in it.

The places that still have emission testing done here no diesel get's bypassed but 3 gas vehicles do and can never be tested in my state,the Ford Rapture,H2,and the newer Dodge Power Wagon's so they will always get a free pass.

So then if you focus on VW with their diesels, the claim that it would cost 10k emissions still doesn't make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 Jeep Wrangler Fiat diesel for United States of Amer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:34 pm 
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VW has several advantages with diesels. They have a full captive engine family in house, this can cut the engine price down by almost 50%. They also have a large volume advantage due to the large number of diesel VW in Europe. This means lower piece cost components and common R&D expenses...very significant. VW can absorb the costs and charge $2-4k more for a diesel option and still make a profit per vehicle.

The Big 3 could open unused engine manufacturing buildings in the states and build small diesels here that they already have in Europe. Or at least license a few engine designs and build them stateside and save 30% in exchange rate loss. It would need to be a concerted effort and not done to 'test' the market. Going small volume is a loss for an automaker. The after treatment and engine modification hardware costs are roughly $3500. In Jeeps case, they also have to buy an engine worth $6500. 10K to 'test' the market is reasonable.

For the consumer, the fuel cost of ownership savings needs to be factored in. Hypothetically: Diesel 28mpg, Gas 18mpg, 100,000miles with diesel at $3.20 and gas at $3.00. You save about $5400 in fuel. Maintenance on the diesel needs to be subtracted, but add back the other benefits of the diesel engine...torque, towing capability and improved seat of the pants driving experience. I would be willing pay at least $5000 more for a diesel vehicle.

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