I'm towing a TT across the country from Virginia to Las Vegas, and now in Russell, Kansas, where, it seems, I will be for a couple more days, at least. About 600 miles ago, I started leaking oil somewhere. It was just enough to be stinky when stopped at a light, and to put a fine mist of black sooty oil on the front panel of the (white, of course) TT. So yesterday I found a Jeep dealer to look at it. He claimed the tech found a leak at the fitting of the turbo oil line, removed, cleaned and resealed it. So this morning I headed west on the next leg of my journey. Sadly, that wasn't the issue, it appears. The leak continued and got worse, and when I stopped for lunch, I checked the oil, only to find I was down 3-1/2 quarts!

Fortunately, I had 5 quarts in the back I had just acquired a couple days ago, so I topped it off, and drove it about 2 miles to a campground for the night. It blew out another quart and a half making that journey. The "leak" has clearly become a geyser.

I don't think any internal damage has been done, as the oil light never came on. But it clearly needs to be towed to the next town for the necessary repairs, and I think it'll be easy to find the leak, as it evidently dumps about a quart every 3 minutes.

Given that it is likely NOT the line TO the turbo, possibilities that occur to me are return line from the turbo, head gasket, and valve cover gasket (not likely, too rapid oil loss). I know it has a transmission oil cooler. Is there an engine oil cooler, too? I've obviously got until Monday morning to speculate idly about the possibilities. I'm not leaning toward a head gasket, as there is no evidence of oil in the coolant or coolant/water in the oil. What else is there?

Bearing seal on the turbo?

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No longer a CRD or Jeep owner. Selling everything I have, needs to go as I need the room for a project.

turbo bearing seals are internal to the turbo, and would either have blown out the tailpipe or into the intake, which would have caused an engine runaway. This is clearly on the passenger side of the engine block and external to the engine. But thank you for the attempt.

There is an oil-to-water oil cooler on the passenger side of the block down low.

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05CRD: GDE Hot ECU & TCM tunes, Provent, Cat filter, Facet lift pump, TransGo kit, Florida TC, Samcos, stainless brake lines, HDS thermostat, Renegade light bar,
RL super sliders, Bilstein adjustables, Al's Gen 4.5 Arms, 235/85-16 Duratracs, DTT rear, Elocker front, EVIC+TPMS, Turbo timer, McNally pillar gauges, Weeks Stage II kit.

Half right. The oil loss you describe is EXACTLY how a stock turbo fails, if it decides to not fail catastrophically. I have had 2 turbo failures, one catastrophic, the second like you describe. The results are the same, the oil gets all over anything behind your CRD. The oil seals will not leak necessarily into the intake, as the path of least resistance is usually into the exhaust side where all the heat is, and the cooling is needed anyway. The intake will look disgusting with oil NORMALLY, because of the poor design of the CCV system. Unless you have an EHM, your intake already has all the oil it needs to rot out your hoses and cause a runaway... Yet it hasn't run away. That is not the source of your leak, but the CCV should be addressed at some point to protect your hoses.

You can validate the turbo condition easily without anything more than a screwdriver. Pull the airbox-to-turbo hose off, (Check that hose for rot at the turbo end, very common and $55 at a dealer) reach into the front of the turbo and see if the turbo shaft moves at all side to side. the tiniest amount of motion front-to-back is normal, but ZERO side-to-side play is acceptable. If there is any - Your turbo bearings have failed. It will only be a matter of time until the shaft snaps from overheating, but at the same time, you WILL be losing oil pressure from your cylinders, as they are DIRECTLY connected to the turbo feed line.

Obviously you do not want to run the engine during this test, or if you discover shaft play.

It is highly improbable that a leak has developed at the oil cooler behind the turbo, that is a non-moving part and yours would be the first anyone on here has mentioned if it was. Because the oil is leaking so fast from the bearings, it is entirely possible that it would exit the exhaust system as oil rather than smoke b/c of how cool our systems run normally anyway.

Good luck, let us know what you find and we can help diagnose it more precisely. There hasn't really been a lot happen to these CRDs that we are not aware of and developed fixes for.

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Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Oh man sorry to hear that. Im in the mist of a move from Sacrament to NY right now towing a 5x10 uhaul trailer fairly weight down. Only 500 miles into my trip and taking a breather at a rest stop. So far so good for me.

I think the only thing on the passenger side for oil loss is the turbo. Maybe it's a return line or something. I'm guessing you can start it and take a look to see where the oil is coming from. Sorry not much help. Good luck man.

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'97 Wrangler Sahara with some mods.

'06 Liberty CRD Limited GDE Hot Tune, Lift Pump

Head Gasket and Timing Belt Pics

JL Rockies did that towing

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=417078#p417078

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2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

The last time (20,000 miles ago) I checked my turbo shaft I had very slight side to side movement, and after reading that I'm worried! Can my turbo be rebuilt to save a buck, or is new (GDE) the best option? I don't mind working on this darn jeep but I really didn't want to do this stuff at 120,000 miles!

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-05 Dark Khaki Limited CRD. GDE ECO tune. In-tank lift pump, Transgo doo doo kit, B&M trans cooler, replaced trans solenoid pack and filters, Newer Michelin tires, Timing belt with all related parts replaced at 110,000miles.

This is the reason I asked, I just picked my CRD up from the dealer after 9 months and $8200 for a new engine.

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No longer a CRD or Jeep owner. Selling everything I have, needs to go as I need the room for a project.

Thanks for the tips, @Geordi. I don't have much in the way of tools with me, but I do have a screwdriver and will check the turbo shaft for play. There has been a Provent on it now for 121,000 miles. And the intake air lines from the airbox and to the intercooler were both replaced when the later split about 15,000 miles ago. It is nice to know that the seals can fail without engine runaway, although of course nobody wants any failure there.

I'll let y'all know what I find re the shaft play.

I think a little side to side shaft play is normal for a turbo, and I mean a little, since there isn't any oil being pumped through the turbo when its not running that oil is not there to fill the gap that you create when you wiggle it side to side.

That being said, if the side to side shaft play is more than about 1mm then that may be bad, its the in and out shaft play that is generally a better indicator of turbo condition.

Plus obviously if it wiggles so much you can make it touch the turbo housing - then thats bad.

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That's interesting, I still think it is the other way though. The side-to-side motion is directly pressing against the rolling portions of the bearings, which is the part that is supporting the shaft and doing all the "heavy lifting" in terms of friction heating and needing that cooling. Front-to-back you are pressing the shaft seals against the SIDE of the bearings, which do not normally hold any load, and that would be the space filled by oil when under pressure. The shaft seals front-to-back are also not directly pressing against the bearings (that would add friction and heat), which is why you can get some small motion in that direction. The side-to-side loading is constant - The bearing is mounted in its cradle, the shaft is inside it held firmly. If it moves, then the bearings aren't holding it firmly anymore, and wobble = eventual death and oil leaks through the spaces. You can also rotate the compressor wheel with your fingers and see if it wants to "spin freely" or stops within a very short distance from you releasing your fingers. (This will be hard to see) The turbo shaft is only an almost-frictionless device when oil pressure is present. With the engine off... It will spin easily, but stop before you can get your hand out to see it. This is normal. If it spins VERY easily or keeps spinning so you can see it with your hand out... Check for wobble, you don't have enough bearing pressure to hold that shaft stable.

The thing to remember is this: That shaft is spinning at up to 100,000 RPM. ~25,000 RPM is probably its constant speed. The tiniest amount of side to side wobble can equal violent vibrations at those speeds.

The turbo I am driving on right now was BRAND-NEW from Chrysler. I checked it against the one that came with my replacement engine with 60k miles on it. The new turbo was "like a rock" and had only the tiniest amount of front-to-back along the axis of the shaft. NOTHING side to side, it might as well have been part of the casing. The replacement engine turbo seemed the same way.

Don't forget the reason I was getting a new engine at 60k miles... Was a turbo failure. I wanted to be *certain* that it would never happen again. After putting a total of 110k miles on that replacement engine turbo... Shaft play and failure. Luckily I caught that one the same way that Naturist caught his - Checking the oil level and topping it off before it got critical, but we were both at the almost-out level of hazard when we caught it. Jinstall wasn't so lucky. My first failure was catastrophic shaft seizure, not a bearing failure like these, but the signs are all the same.

Paineman... I would be RELIGIOUS in checking your oil level anytime you move the CRD for a while. If you hear anything squeaky... Check it again right then, and plan on a turbo in your near future. This the same advice for Naturist, but I think he is already at the point of bearing failure and leaking, and doesn't have much option about this next suggestion: Depending on your financial position, you have three sources for a replacement turbo. Used from someone here (I will have my stock turbos for sale soon, both of them once I get the wobbly one fixed)... Brand New from a dealership OR from a Garrett dealer (it is possible, and the prices were better) or (the best option) Go with the Green Diesel Engineering Turbo Kit.

When my Replacement Engine Turbo failed a few weeks ago, I put the Brand New turbo back in. That one has a minor sticking issue with the vanes that I will let Garrett deal repair before I sell it. I took the failed unit to a Garrett dealer, and they informed me that there were NO center cartridges available to rebuild these. They said I could get another brand new unit for $1080, it would be coming from Brazil where the closest unit was. Last time I checked, I think the dealers here wanted $1700 for the turbo.

The choices suck, but there are all the options and information I can think of about this. Naturist... I do think you will need a replacement turbo to continue your trip, sorry for that. I hope there is one in the area for you. Car-Part.com has ZILCH listed right now for the entire USA. I did not buy that one in Brazil, so if you can contact a local Garrett dealer, they should be able to bring it in for you if you go that route.

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Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Every turbo I have ever had has been this way, a little side to side play is ok, but then in and out is bad.

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http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

There HAS to be some amount of side to side play. Otherwise there would be no room for an oil film, and it would be metal on metal all the time.

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05CRD: GDE Hot ECU & TCM tunes, Provent, Cat filter, Facet lift pump, TransGo kit, Florida TC, Samcos, stainless brake lines, HDS thermostat, Renegade light bar,
RL super sliders, Bilstein adjustables, Al's Gen 4.5 Arms, 235/85-16 Duratracs, DTT rear, Elocker front, EVIC+TPMS, Turbo timer, McNally pillar gauges, Weeks Stage II kit.

The oil film exists in the tiny defects of the metal surfaces, and might only need to be a few microns thick. I know my fingers aren't sensitive enough to detect something that thin, a millimeter is a cavernous space with tolerances this tight.

Simple test that answers all of the speculation: Let your engine idle, and check the oil level while it is running. Do that over the course of a day or two to get a baseline idea of where the oil level sits while idling.

These engines should NOT be using any significant amount of oil. If yours is, or starts to... It has to be going somewhere. The most likely place for a leak that you don't see on the ground while parked... Is the turbo's bearings. A small leak might be able to be accepted for a short time, but with the turbo spinning so fast, any wobble WILL eat away the bearings rapidly, making the problem progressively worse. You are gambling with an $8000 chip on the table, your engine.

I know I will never take that chance again, I highly doubt Jinstall will either. These turbos are too close to their operational limits for this vehicle.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Actually, it's much larger than microns. In a journal bearing turbo, there has to be a few thousandths radial clearance. That's like .003 inches. You can just barely feel it.

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05CRD: GDE Hot ECU & TCM tunes, Provent, Cat filter, Facet lift pump, TransGo kit, Florida TC, Samcos, stainless brake lines, HDS thermostat, Renegade light bar,
RL super sliders, Bilstein adjustables, Al's Gen 4.5 Arms, 235/85-16 Duratracs, DTT rear, Elocker front, EVIC+TPMS, Turbo timer, McNally pillar gauges, Weeks Stage II kit.

OK, I just got the necessary hose off (and found that it has a tear about half way 'round the diameter just at the edge of the hose clamp on the turbo end -- this is the intake from the airbox). The turbo shaft itself has ZERO play in it, either front to back OR side-to-side. She's tight as a drum. Spun freely, no sign of resistance. And no play at all.

Obviously gonna need that intake-side hose. Outlet side hose has the barest traces of oil. Not even a coating, just little slightly-damp spots here and there.

That doesn't surprise me at all, in fact I bet its been that way a long time and you didn't even know it, heck I didn't.

Check out this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60636

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http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

CatCRD: Thanks, I learn something new every day. Good info to have.

Naturist, Yep, thats your lovely CCV design at work. I hate that mess.

I'm glad you aren't finding any shaft play, that is VERY good news. The play on mine was pronounced, and I could see where it had just barely started to contact the housing. I forgot I had pics of it on Dropbox:

https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/5447172/1/turbo?h=fa2540

So back to the drawing board. You are certain the oil is coming from the passenger side of the block. Ok, that narrows it down to the Turbo, especially toward the back of the engine bay. There isn't anything else back there other than the oil cooler and the turbo, but the oil cooler is glued to the side of the block at the very back, under the turbo. If you grab a flashlight and climb under the CRD just behind the passenger tire, you should be able to see both items.

Follow the exhaust line up to the back of the turbo - Directly under the middle of the turbo is the oil outlet. This is a hard tube that runs into the side of the block WITHOUT any kind of pressure seal. It just shoves into a rubber grommet. It is possible that this tube worked itself loose under the turbo (two bolts) and that is where it is leaking from. Chances are the oil is just about everywhere if it leaking from here, so finding the leak will be tough. BUT - Good news. If the top of that hard tube by the turbo is wet with oil - Thats your leak.

Some seepage down at the block seal is normal (at least on my engine it seems to always be a little moist) but if the side of the block is coated... Then look to the oil cooler above that turbo return line.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Well, the utter lack of play in the turbo probably saves me a couple grand. My money now is on that oil return line. And yes, the oil has been getting everywhere. When I finished shoving the TT into my spot yesterday afternoon and shut her down, I saw that I had left a pronounced oil trail up the drive. Looking under the Jeep, there was oil dripping from everywhere. God, what a mess. The entire front of the TT was black, spatters all down the sides and even all over the back end (aerodynamics at work, obviously). In the engine compartment itself, almost every thing on the passenger side of the engine has oil on it. Yech. So what do you guys think? I'm clearly going to have to order the replacement hose. Do I let the dealer's guy see if he can find where the oil is pouring out? Shouldn't be all that hard to spot, at 1 quart every 3-5 minutes, eh?

(I gotta tell you, I'm a big guy, with big hands. Getting that hose off, and then back on, was hell. I'm ok with paying somebody else to do that sort of stuff. Provided, of course, you can find one who can actually do it right.)