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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Geordi,

Know anyone with a pan that can be inspected? Sam, perhaps?

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Doc - I have an empty pan that I will happily GIVE you, if you feel like taking a drive to Queens in a few days. I'm going to be back in that neighborhood shortly after I get my CRD back.

The trick is - This is the pan from my original engine, and it has a convenient "inspection" port that was installed when the #1 rod left its assigned duty station rather violently. It is not suitable to install on any engine anymore. The other point is I don't know how this will help with determining where a 3" deep point might be for the oil, b/c there is an awful lot sitting under the crankshaft tunnel in the block - Balance shaft is a big unit. I've still got that too, but I don't know exactly how it sets into the bottom of the pan.

LMK if you want the pan, it's ready to go and I'm happy to bring it up to you.

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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:23 pm 
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DOC4444 wrote:
The GDE turbo kit is a great product and likely to last longer than oem, but it is still subject to eventual failure. A good method needs to be developed to alert the driver to quickly shutdown when massive oil loss is occuring.

DOC



A more cost effective approach would bee to try and find the reasons why the seals fail in the first place........My theory is that its due to improper maintenance, monitoring, and/or shut down procedures. Due mainly to not being able to observe boost pressures and egt's. Which in turn cause over speeding/boost, and cooking the oil and consequent burning of seals.

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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Someone has yet to explain to me how they have a "leaky oil seal" on a turbocharger which doesn't use contact oil seals. Our VNT-15 units use slinger type oil seals (labyrinth seals) as are used on all diesel engines as far as I know. Since there should never be a vacuum condition such as is encountered in a gasoline engine, there is always a positive pressure both on the compressor side as well as the turbine side and no need for gasser type, contact oil seals. The only condition in which oil should ever escape past the labyrinth seals is if a turbine or shaft is physically damaged and can no longer rotate to provide air compression and centrifugal containment of the oil or if the drain hose occludes (an extremely unlikely event). one caveat to this paragraph is that a slinger ring can break but if it does, there will be a massive oil loss, not a "leak".

If the turbocharger is damaged and quits charging while under power, there will be no doubt to the driver that something is seriously amiss. There will be little to no power and a LOT of black or blue smoke and possibly metallic noises of doom. The correct procedure in this scenario is to immediately pull to the side of the road and determine the cause of power loss and or accompanying sequela. Remember that a burst CAC hose closely emulates a failed turbo but you will still hear a very pronounced turbine whine and you should be able to limp home with this issue.

If the journal bearing is worn to the point where the compressor vanes contact the housing as several folks have reported here, it's time to replace (or rebuild) it. When a turbo charger fails due to excessive contact with the housing wall or shaft failure, it will be a very sudden thing and even if the engine can be shut down before all the oil get sucked past the compressor or blown out the tail pipe, there is a good possibility that metallic debris will be sucked into the engine. So if you have compressor wheel/housing contact, don't wait for the inevitable, change it before the engine is damaged.

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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:46 pm 
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nursecosmo wrote:

If the journal bearing is worn to the point where the compressor vanes contact the housing as several folks have reported here, it's time to replace (or rebuild) it.


How does one inspect and determine if the turbo needs replaced? Iv searched for a "how to inspect turbo" thread but cant find one.

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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:58 pm 
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rebar wrote:
nursecosmo wrote:

If the journal bearing is worn to the point where the compressor vanes contact the housing as several folks have reported here, it's time to replace (or rebuild) it.


How does one inspect and determine if the turbo needs replaced? Iv searched for a "how to inspect turbo" thread but cant find one.


Carefully remove the intake duct from the air cleaner(they can get brittle from oil mist). The compressor wheel will be staring you right in the face. You may feel a small amount of side to side movement but this is ok, remember that it doesn't need a perfect contact seal like in gasoline engines. If the movement is enough to contact the housing however, it's time for a replacement.

Geordi has posted somewhere how much side to side movement he encountered before the vanes contacted the snail.

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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:12 am 
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2mopar_diesels wrote:
A more cost effective approach would bee to try and find the reasons why the seals fail in the first place........My theory is that its due to improper maintenance, monitoring, and/or shut down procedures. Due mainly to not being able to observe boost pressures and egt's. Which in turn cause over speeding/boost, and cooking the oil and consequent burning of seals.

That is what should be done.

I spent 10 years playing with turbo diesels and that whole time never had a,or seen,a turbo failure till variable vain turbo's came out.Heck I force fed a 8V92TA Detroit water from a fire hose(1200gpm flow) through the turbo with no damage(can't say the same about the block).Never did any cool down for them(fixed vain turbo's),never,even after towing 60tons for a couple hundreds of miles or 10+ hours of 1800rpm high idle doing wrecker ops.


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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:22 am 
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With a pan, a block to measure and a dipstick, it should not be hard to get a rough idea where the oil level usually is in the pan.

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: KJ CRD Achilles Heel
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:13 am 
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2mopar_diesels wrote:
racertracer wrote:

And here is the most important note to remember: Follow the turbo cool down procedure as stated in your owners manual so that you don't suffer a worse catastrophy such as a warped cylinder head or leaky head gasket. So allow the engine and turbo especially, to properly cool down after a trip.

Racer


I'm positive that we have not stressed enough the importance of having a pyrometer...........everywhere else where diesels are discussed, two gauges are pretty much mentioned as standard. Boost/pyrometer, with pyrometer being most important...........it was the first upgrade I did for the dodge, even before power was added.From now on, that will be my #1 suggestion to prevent failures........improper shut down is the biggest cause of failure, and not knowing what temps your turbo was subjected to is making things worse.



Well, there might be some merit to all that. But I rarely do any serious "cool down" technique. Just the coasting from the freeway, down the off ramp, and to a stop cools a turbo considerably. The simple pulling down the street to the house part really doesn't do anything for creating much heat.

Is pyrometer important? Yes if you are "souping up' the engine to high hp levels and really "pouring on the coal" and working the engine to its max potential. I ran my previous Cummins N-14 to 1.4 million miles without a pyrometer. Never replaced turbo. I currently have almost 800,000 miles on my Cummins ISX 15L with a VGT turbo from hell, still no pyrometer and still original turbo. Both of them regularly had to move almost 80,000 lb gross. The boost/pyrometer gauges are not "pretty much standard" on commercial trucks and likewise standard consumer diesels. Go down to your local International, Peterbilt, Kenworth, Volvo, Freightliner, and Mack dealerships and take a gander at all the trucks on the lot. Only a small percentage of them will have boost or pyrometer gauges in them.

Driving style is more a factor in turbo longevity. I have over 3.5 million miles commercial truck ownership and driving and have never lost a turbo. I am confident that my CRD turbo will last for quite a while even though I follow no specific cool down procedure and have none of the gauges you mentioned.

This all doesn't mean using a little common sense in how you do things isn't warranted or that in some instances, your comments have merit. But there is really no pressing need to put on gauges and follow specific cool down procedures if one is a n average driver. The gauges do look neat though and impress others.

Banks Power did a writeup on turbo cool down several years ago and showed that turbo cool down is a concept that was carried over from days gone by and is not as critical today. True, if you are applying full power, doing a hard pull, and reach up and shut the engine off, you would be in trouble. But that is not likely. Just is coasting down from highway to street speeds and then the stop and go of normal street traffic will bring down turbo temps to low levels. There is a lot of air volume passing thru that turbo in a short period of time, as well as a high amount of oil circulating thru the unit.

But do as your gut tells you. But you might check out myth #7 in this article.

http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/ ... -&-Fiction

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