Problems after timing belt change

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:03 pm

turbobill wrote:

Thanks, Sam. I have rockers coming from one rebuild and lifters coming from another. Since my Exhaust side has 100K on it and all looks good, I don't feel compelled to go new if there is another option.

Just make sure to check all the rollers for play, look at the pictures I posted of the bad/new ones, make sure none of your other rollers are collapsed like those are.

turbobill · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:09 pm

Will do. Thanks for the reminder. /

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:13 pm

Looking at mine - I don't see the roller problem (notice that they stick up more on one side than the other).

However.. I'm a little concerned about what a 'normal' lifter looks like. Are they supposed to compress a certain amount (i.e. a spring inside), or ? The service manual only says to inspect for wear on the sides and bottom, but nothing else I can find. I can't tell if oil pressure provides the upward push (from the bottom, the whole lifter) or if they work to expand/compress internally.

Mark

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:25 pm

msilbernagel wrote:

Looking at mine - I don't see the roller problem (notice that they stick up more on one side than the other).

However.. I'm a little concerned about what a 'normal' lifter looks like. Are they supposed to compress a certain amount (i.e. a spring inside), or ? The service manual only says to inspect for wear on the sides and bottom, but nothing else I can find. I can't tell if oil pressure provides the upward push (from the bottom, the whole lifter) or if they work to expand/compress internally.

Mark

What do your rollers look like, here are some of my failed ones:

good left, bad right:

Badder, Bad, New:

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:01 am

Here's how they all failed (except one):

Old one left (the one that 'got away'), new one right:

Old one left, new one right:

More 'broken' items:

Lifters:

Looking at the previous post - it appears that the 'new' lifters are different in design... ?

Mark

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:57 am

Did any of your rollers collapse like mine did? IE, is there any play in the roller part of the rocker?

turbobill · **Posted:** Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:33 pm

I am traveling through Thursday evening. I will inspect Friday and post results. Two rockers broke in half. Other six positions had broken litters so will need to look closely at those six rockers as well as exhaaust hardware.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:34 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

Did any of your rollers collapse like mine did? IE, is there any play in the roller part of the rocker?

Not that I can tell - they all split on the side closest to the lifter.

I'm concerned that the lifters may have been damaged internally but don't know what 'normal' is like for a comparison. I did order a single replacement Dodge part so I could compare - and replace the one obviously damaged lifter - and am leaning towards replacing the lifters from the same source as the rocker arms. Just to be sure..

The person I ordered the rocker arms from also is a L.O.S.T. member, and it sounds like he'll have more parts soon.

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:44 pm

Two of my rockers broke in half, the other six appear to be undamaged (the lifters with these rockers all broke). I cleaned them in some Naphtha and checked for any sign of damage along the lines that Sam pictured. Didn't find any. The rollers seem smooth, without too much play in them, none of them were crushed or deformed in any way. When my lifters arrive I will start the reassembly and post results when I get some.

Thanks to everyone on the forum that has helped me with this problem.

I plan to clean the lifters with spray carburetor cleaner and if any scrubbing is needed I plan to use 0000 steel wool CAREFULLY. Any suggestion on dealing with the used lifters would be appreciated.

Bill

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:22 am

Be careful - the force required to break the rocker arms also seems to damage the lifters internally.

I've posted a pic and measurements on the thread I started here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64557&p=714441#p714441

Measure yours with a caliper and if you've lost compression travel you'll probably want to replace the lifters too - failing to replace a damaged lifter would leave it with insufficient ability to take up the slack in the valvetrain and you'd end up with a lot of lifter noise and shortened cam/lifter/rocker arm life.

The new lifter measured 0.1" travel, and the damaged ones best remaining travel was 0.007"... down to zero.

FYI - Mark

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:19 am

turbobill wrote:

I plan to clean the lifters with spray carburetor cleaner and if any scrubbing is needed I plan to use 0000 steel wool CAREFULLY. Any suggestion on dealing with the used lifters would be appreciated.

Bill

I would suggest using the red Scotchbrite pads instead of the steel wool if you need to scrub them.

turbobill · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:34 pm

All of my lifters are of the crimped top type. I am sure they have been in the car 100K miles. None of my lifters seem to have free movement, not even the ones undamaged on my exhaust side. They move with some resistance (I can move them with my fingers gripping tightly). I did not find any springs inside the lifters that broke. A couple of them still had the top on and were attached to the rocker but were cracked at the top. When I took the top off there did ot appear to be a spring internally to the lifter.

Does anyone have an idea of how these lifters are constructed?

My plan is to use carburetor cleaner to spray out the internals of the lifters and remove any build up that way. Better suggestion?

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:18 pm

turbobill wrote:

All of my lifters are of the crimped top type. ...

None of my lifters seem to have free movement, not even the ones undamaged on my exhaust side. They move with some resistance (I can move them with my fingers gripping tightly). I did not find any springs inside the lifters that broke.

... When I took the top off there did ot appear to be a spring internally to the lifter.

Does anyone have an idea of how these lifters are constructed?

My plan is to use carburetor cleaner to spray out the internals of the lifters and remove any build up that way. Better suggestion?

Without a known good lifter of the original design, I'm in the dark guessing. Mine are crimped like yours and seem to function the same way. You can grab the knob on top or in some cases the crimped ring, and turn them (the ring with a little effort).

If they don't expand like the newer ones, perhaps oil pressure just pushes them up from the bottom?

If you clean them with solvent, be sure to soak/fill them with something thicker when re-installing. Wouldn't want galling on the first start, before the oil begins circulating again.

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:55 pm

I plan on soaking them in new oil over night before installing.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:21 pm

Color me fuzzy on the function of these things, I thought they just sat in the hole and acted as the fulcrum from the downward pressure of the cam lobes on the roller? I didn't think they moved at all.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:09 pm

geordi wrote:

Color me fuzzy on the function of these things, I thought they just sat in the hole and acted as the fulcrum from the downward pressure of the cam lobes on the roller? I didn't think they moved at all.

Seems like it. From what I can tell, the rockers and lifters may have undergone a design change and work differently now than the originals (2005 in my case) did - they fail differently too.

Hard to tell without a known good one of the old design.

Mark

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:42 am

From what Sam had said one time, there isn't anything to hold them in place while the cam is out other than gravity, so getting the head back on is a real bugger. If I was doing this, I would probably use a little bit of axle grease (blue bear snot) as "glue" to stick the rockers in place to the valve stems.

As for the design of the lifters... Are we CERTAIN there is a design difference? Mine are all 2005 design (at least they should be) but I have a friend going to my place to look for the bags tomorrow. I'm still not back to Savannah yet, but I want to get these mailed out if they will work. Now I'm all concerned about the application. TurboBill, is your CRD an 06? Is this something you are concerned about?

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:54 am

geordi wrote:

From what Sam had said one time, there isn't anything to hold them in place while the cam is out other than gravity, so getting the head back on is a real bugger. If I was doing this, I would probably use a little bit of axle grease (blue bear snot) as "glue" to stick the rockers in place to the valve stems.

Yes - excellent idea. I also picked up the pins, which are $10-$12 on eBay. That should help set it down vertically to minimize bumping them off the valves. Since the clips hold the lifter and the rocker arm cups the top of the value, they're not too unsteady so I'm hopeful the air won't be too blue that day... :ROTFL:

geordi wrote:

As for the design of the lifters... Are we CERTAIN there is a design difference? Mine are all 2005 design (at least they should be) but I have a friend going to my place to look for the bags tomorrow. I'm still not back to Savannah yet, but I want to get these mailed out if they will work. Now I'm all concerned about the application. TurboBill, is your CRD an 06? Is this something you are concerned about?

Certain? Absolutely YES that they are a different design. But...

Not so certain how differently they are intended to function. If the old ones were meant to be a fixed pivot point rather than internally sprung like the new ones, and used a bit of valve spring tension to hold them.. then they'd operate differently. I also don't know if oil pressure forces the old ones up and takes up slack that way - there's no "theory of operation" section in the service manual, nor is there a test for operation other than to inspect for scuffing.

Lacking the ability to buy to old design as new, that would leave inspecting "known good" ones from an engine which hasn't hammered them via a broken timing belt; to be certain.

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:55 pm

Mine is an 05. No I am not concerned about using your lifters. The two lifters that survived the crash of my intake side look and act like the lifters on my exhaust side so I have plenty to compare them to. All of mine are crimpted top design. I am ready to rebuild when the lifters come in. Thanks georsi for your help and the trouble you are going.g to to get the lifters to me.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:59 pm

UPDATED:

After receiving a note from the seller - I've learned that the new Eurocam lifters are in fact like the new OEM lifters - both are sprung internally as I'm used to seeing with other hydraulic lifters. They were so stiff I'd concluded they weren't supposed to move, but after working them a bit they begin to loosen up and move about the same 0.1" travel as the OEM (new) ones do.

So - I still can't say how the original (2005, crimped ones) were supposed to work with certainty but did want to correct my earlier post.

Mark

Problems after timing belt change

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