Problems after timing belt change

turbobill · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:57 pm

Since geordi sent me several lifters I decided to determine the construction of the old style, crimp top lifters. Here is a picture of what I found when I deconstructed a lifter:

From right to left there is the lifter housing, the spring, the piston, the top and the crimp ring. So if there was a mystery it is now solved. Also I had a number of "stuck" lifters, no motion against the spring. I put all the lifters I had, maybe 30, into a mixture of 50% acetone and 50% Naphtha to soak over night to see if the stuck ones would loosen up. I also took apart a second "stuck" lifter to try to determine the cause of failure. I eased the crimped top off and took the lifter apart without any problems. Seems as though the reason it was stuck was not mechanical but due to either the passage in the piston being plugged so there was pressure or because of gunk in the bottom below the piston. Once taken apart it rinsed off with carburetor cleaner. I reassembled the lifter and it worked smoothly. The crimp top seemed to have enough pressure to hold the top.

If the stuck lifters don't free up in the overnight soak I will take enough apart to clean and reassemble.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:54 pm

Awesome... another mystery solved.

So, mine are either stuck (clogged) or perhaps jammed from the pressure required to break the rocker arm.

Knowing this is, I believe, pretty important to anyone working on the top-end and wondering if their parts are functioning correctly.

As I have replacements, I'll be a little more aggressive with the old ones and see if they recover.

Thanks!

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:01 am

I take it the box arrived already then?

I'm glad that there are so many available for your repair, imagine my surprise when I was told that my engine only jumped timing and ate the rockers once during the engine replacement... And I count up almost 3 full sets of rocker parts from the mechanic. Hmm. Set #1 (should have been intact) from my original engine with the trashed bottom end and #1 cyl... Set #2 from the replacement engine (broken when the tensioner backed out)... Set #3?????

I still haven't discussed that with the shop owner, but its in the past. At least they are helping advance the collective knowledge of this group.

turbobill · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:11 am

Sorry, geordi. I forgot to let you know the box had arrived. Yes, it did with three bags of parts. I took apart all the broken rockers and salvaged the clips and lifters from them. There was one rocker that appeared to be OK in the set.

My count of the lifters included 10 from my rig, I will have a final count this morning as I am going to go through them and see if I have 16 "springy" lifters. Also to msilbernagel's point, even the broken lifters I deconstructed operated smoothly after I cleaned them up, the piston and top would slide easily inside the remains of the housing so I think if the lifter "jams" it is likely to break. I think we are dealing with some sludge in the bottom, under the piston.

Since replacing the rockers and lifters are not part of a 100,000k service plan I would assume there is lots of latitude in lifter operation on these engines, but the point is well taken that if you have one apart make sure the lifters are working as designed before you put it back together.

As I said in my last post I believe that even the crimp top lifters can be taken apart, cleaned up and reused, if the correct lifter operation is not evident. The 0.1 inch of travel in the lifter should be smooth and easy.

I hope to have my Jeep back on the road by the end of next week. My target is Wednesday since I can't spend the time I need until Monday, it seems like something always crops up with these machines.

We should consider adding the lifter break out to the TECH list, as well as the need to check operation of the lifters if we have the top off the engine.

turbobill · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:01 pm

I sorted out the lifters geordi sent to me. I found 13 that seemed to have "like new" springiness so I deconstructed and cleaned 5 additional lifters. These all had some springiness but not quite up to snuff. All five I cleaned had the same issue with them. The ports to the area under the piston were somewhat constricted. I cleaned them with carb cleaner and put them back together. These were what I would consider to be near perfect after cleanup. The data leads me to believe that virtually all "stuck" lifters can be deconstructed and returned to original operating performance. It took about 7 to 8 minutes to take a lifter apart, clean it and put it back together. If anyone out there would like to know the technique I used pm me.

Oil only goes into the area under the piston then must come out around the outside but there are o oil grooves or ports, just machine tolerance. That is why the gunk can collect there. Also the ports in the piston are very small so they are easily blocked.

I have 17 lifters left over, all of them in need of deconstruction and clean up but if anyone needs one or more let me know, I know geordi would like to see them all find a good home, hopefully I will never have to see one of these lifters again - after I get my CRD back together. My rockers and lifters are in a glass jar and are covered with 5W40 Rotella full synthetic. I will start the reassembly on Monday.

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:48 pm

turbobill wrote:

My rockers and lifters are in a glass jar and are covered with 5W40 Rotella full synthetic.

And if you want a clean working smooth sounding lifter along with all the other moving parts while they are still intact in the engine, then using this stuff will extend the life of your CRD: http://www.barsproducts.com/100QR.htm

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:29 pm

Hey, I'm almost due for an oil change anyway, maybe I'll give this stuff a shot. Who knows, it might clear up whatever is pissing off the turbo that is still giving me problems until I can rebuild / replace it. (this is that same turbo problem I've talked about before, haven't had any time to do anything about it yet)

turbobill · **Posted:** Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:46 pm

I have hit a bit of a snag in my reassembly. While trying to test clearance of the top of the engine for putting the cover back on I found this piece sitting in a valve spring well at the front of the engine. Since I have used a magnet to probe all of these recesses I am sure it is new to the top of the engine. Here is a picture of the piece I found:

It is about 5/8 long and a little larger than 1/4 wide, It is a sleeve that is beveled on both ends.

Looking at the bottom of the cover the piece seems to fit perfectly into this hole (the round part of the key shaped hole in the cover)

Before I put things back together I need to make sure the part fits here, and if not then where? In my thinking the most likely place for the part to come from was the cover since I had manhandled it over the top of the engine two or three times to check on access before I put the rockers on.

Any help is appreciated. I went to the manual but no mention of this part and there is not an expanded assembly of the cover from the bottom that I could find.

Thanks again for you help.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:32 pm

Looks like where it falls on mine...

Mark

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:33 pm

The dowel is identified as #28 in the parts fiche - on page 207, Figure 2.8L-210.

There appear to be two - one up front, and the one pictured earlier towards the rear.

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:04 pm

Thanks, Mark. Is this parts fiche from the 2006 manual? My 2005 manual does not have this fiche in it, that I can find. Does the manual say what the purpose of these sleeves are?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:27 pm

2005 parts manual Figure 2.8L-210 shows them. While I cannot say for sure without seeing the actual hole they go into (I strongly suspect it's a blind hole) I would be reasonably sure they serve no purpose related to engine mechanical function rather they are simply locater pins for putting things together. How critical that function is I don't know.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:50 pm

turbobill wrote:

Thanks, Mark. Is this parts fiche from the 2006 manual? My 2005 manual does not have this fiche in it, that I can find. Does the manual say what the purpose of these sleeves are?

The parts fiche is a separate download from the FSM.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm

The parts manual I pulled the diagram from can be found here: http://colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/

Name of the one I used is: 05kj_PARTS_FICHE.pdf

I agree, I believe their purpose is to accurately fix the position of the cover and hold the gasket in place during installation. It should reduce the chance of misalignment and resulting leaks - since you've got boosted intake air being sealed by that gasket.

If you're uncertain of the location of the other one, I can give you a picture of where the front post goes - it fits mostly within the upper cover, and there's a matching small hole along the front edge of the cover.

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:27 pm

I have both pins/sleeves. I put them in the port in the cover with a bit of synthetic wheel bearing grease so they would stay put. They are slightly longer than the port they sit in. Both ports, front and back sit on the mainbearing housing for the cans, the front on the passenger side cam the back on the drivers side cam so they may be more than locator pins

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:52 pm

You might be right on that - perhaps they're lubrication channels for camshaft bearings.

turbobill wrote:

I have both pins/sleeves. I put them in the port in the cover with a bit of synthetic wheel bearing grease so they would stay put. They are slightly longer than the port they sit in. Both ports, front and back sit on the mainbearing housing for the cans, the front on the passenger side cam the back on the drivers side cam so they may be more than locator pins

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:58 pm

Could be which is why I noted my opinion was based on not having seen the holes they fit into. If those holes are blind then these are likely locator pins but if the holes are not blind then they may serve other purposes.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:00 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Could be which is why I noted my opinion was based on not having seen the holes they fit into. If those holes are blind then these are likely locator pins but if the holes are not blind then they may serve other purposes.

I'm unfamiliar with the term blind as used here.. meaning, no passageways feeding the holes the sleeves fit into?

Thx,

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:39 pm

I believe they are oil sully for.the came mains because they bevel seal to the head at what appear to be oil ports. Also the hole they go onto on the mains are not blind. These would be very poor locator pins since there is no real recess in the head. Yet another odd design in this quirky little engine

CATCRD · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:41 pm

Blind means dead-end. Those just look like locating dowels. Commonly used to align two machined components accurately. The bolt holes aren't used for alignment, just for clamping.

Problems after timing belt change

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