Mod to Intake - sealing off EGR

galatron · **Posted:** Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:29 pm

Ok so now that I've got the intake off, I'm thinking of taking it to a metal shop and having them weld the egr port closed. I also plan on having the egr pipe with me and having them make a plate to block off the port on the engine block. It was suggested earler that instead of gutting the butterfly mechanisim to just remove the actual butterfly and leave all the guts there.
That done, can I leave the all the EGR electronics plugged in and not get a CEL? - or will I get a CEL and just deal with it untill I do the GDE Tune - which I will do eventually.
Not to sound too noobish, I do some welding but but not aluminium, what to I ask/tell these guys? "yeah just seal this port off, don't mind what it came from..."

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:54 pm

You might want to take a look at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61745&p=683906&hilit=block+plate+egr#p683906 . I'm not 100% sure but my understanding at the moment is 1) you can remove the flow control valve butterfly without getting a CEL; 2) you can disable the EGR by pulling the MAF or plugging the EGR lines but either will produce a CEL; 3) you can disable the EGR with a SEGR kit without getting a CEL; 4) you can minimize EGR function with a GDE tune. What I don't know is whether or not you will get a CEL if all you do is disable the EGR and intall a GDE tune, I suspect that you will unless you also have an SEGR installed.

geordi or Sir Sam may know the answer to that last comment. IMHO the best investment of $s is in a GDE tune as opposed to the SEGR as the tune does a lot more than deal with EGR function. I have the tune and would still like to plug the EGR but don't intend to do so if that means I have to install an SEGR to avoid a CEL.

Hopefully one of the members who know a bit more than I do on this topic will weigh in and correct me as needed.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:17 pm

If you disable or gut either the butterfly or EGR you will eventually get engine codes like P0102, P0401 and P1140. A GDE tune will fix that.

Glend · **Posted:** Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:30 pm

First, if you have an Export Model I am told (by GDE) that blocking off the EGR will not generate a CEL.

Secondly, it's probably not a good idea to block off the EGR if you run a GDE tune. GDE uses the EGR valve to bleed off boost in overboost situations (sort of blipping the EGR valve open to allow the overboost to bleed off through the exhaust, as I understand Keith's explanation). Think of it like a pop-off vavle. Obviously if you block it off the overboost has no where to go.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:33 pm

You should make it easy to comply with the emission standards the rig was built to comply with. Never know when you or someone else will need to do that. GDE tune or SEGR will allow your AT&T to last almost forever.

DOC

camo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:58 pm

mechanical block of EGR = waste of time and effort!!!! been there done that.
1. will create a cel anyway.
2. you will have to remove the butterfly at the CCV in order not to take the turbo closer to an expensive surge point due to the way the computer reacts when it doesn't see the egr flow (close ccv about 75% to increase manifold pressure).
3. make your life easier by running ORM while you get your GDE or an SEGR. (I have one SEGR that I never used if interested)

Greasey Bob · **Joined:** Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:34 am **Posts:** 228

I am interested in a SEGR? How much and how do I get it. The CEL light has been on for 40k miles. It would be nice to get rid of it but then again we are use to it our last car was a Chyrsler PT cruiser and it had the cel on for 40k miles also. It was something every one said it was not worth changing.

camo · **Posted:** Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:13 pm

I paid 100 bucks for it and never even put it together... give me the 100 and I'll ship it to you. The only thing is that you are going to have to find the way to put it together, I know it is somewhere in this forum but you will have to look. let me know.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:40 pm

Turbo Tim invented the SEGR and UFO has put a lot of them together.
To block off the EGR after the SEGR, all you need is a piece of exhaust gasket material and slide it between the EGR valve flange and pipe (with out the hole in it of course). Unbolt your fuel filter, swing it up out of the way and you will see the two flanges connected to the EGR valve. For me the top one is easier to get to, but to each his own. NAPA sell the exhaust gasket material for a reasonable price. If your NAPA does not use the cocaine up the nose price list, you can buy a sheet for less than $12. With the gizmos and pipes all there, any Idiot Gooberment Employee will not know you have done the deed.
THE GDE tune does not shut off the EGR, just reduces it. Read their documentation, it is all there. A business can't lie to the Gooberment, but the Gooberment can lie to a business, that is why they fess up.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:08 pm

Let me try and clear up some of the misconceptions in this forum -

There are TWO distinct components to the EGR system, even though they are listed as the same thing in the mentally-retarded service manual. The FCV or Flow Control Valve (or EGR Control Valve I've heard it called as well somewhere) is the big butterfly valve with the electric motor attached that lives ON THE INTAKE ELBOW right where the intercooler hose connects on the driver's side.

The EGR valve ALSO has a valve of some sort, but it is a much smaller (and not removable) component. The EGR is bolted to the engine block itself, under and behind where the FCV is.

The FCV can be electrically unplugged without a CEL happening... IF you have either an SEGR or a GDE tune. It is NOT NEEDED FOR ANYTHING ELSE by the computer, and pulling the butterfly valve CANNOT HURT ANYTHING AT ALL. Leave the electrics connected if you want (I left mine hooked up) and forget it is in there.

OK... SEGR versus GDE. At the risk of calling in the black helicopters and mind control rays... Warp is correct. The SEGR device completely disconnects (electrically) the EGR and leaves it in whatever state of closed it happens to be in. This is a good thing. GDE's tune DOES NOT USE THE EGR AS ANY KIND OF "blow off valve" like their literature states. I have physically monitored the functioning of that part of the electronics, and the command to open the EGR is given EVERY SINGLE TIME you take your foot off the gas pedal. The circuit path goes from an "off" state to an "on" state for just about half-a-second each time. This is not in dispute, they claim exactly what they are doing: Reducing the amount of EGR used while not "eliminating" it entirely.

Here's the part you have to decide for yourself about this: The EGR itself is an electric motor operating a screw, to open or close off the port. This motor takes an amount of time while the signal is either on or off, to change state. When the signal changes state, so does the motor... Again taking an amount of time to physically MOVE from A to B. Can this motor do this in the half-second allotted? I personally do not think so. Further, rapidly reversing polarity on an electric motor is a FAST way to annoy it and cause it to fail out. This isn't a big issue for our purposes, we don't like that thing anyway, and it usually only lasts about 16k miles in stock form anyway! HOWEVER... Do you want to risk that the thing fails in the OPEN position, leaking all your boost out? I sure don't!

GDE is in a tough position with the government here, and we need to protect them. In the case of most aftermarket products, there is at least a statement of "for off road use only" from the manufacturer, and the liability is passed to the consumer entirely. With an engine tune, it is MUCH harder to justify that, because in most cases (especially ours!) the vehicle simply is a giant ornament without that computer. You can't remove the computer (with that tune) and drive home on the surface streets. So you WILL BE USING THE TUNE ON THE HIGHWAYS... Which means that GDE cannot LEGALLY remove the function of the emissions control systems. Calling it's function by a different name is marketing. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but craps soot... It is still a working EGR valve.

The SEGR device does what GDE cannot, because it wasn't developed by any corporation that can be sued into silence. It was developed and then released as an open-source set of plans... That when installed, the EGR valve can be left plugged in because the physical power wire is cut elsewhere. The EGR cannot open, but the computer "THINKS" it has opened, because of the genius of the design. As such, no CEL, and the computer is happy.

Now... Physically blocking the EGR off from the intake and / or the exhaust manifold. It is a strange thing, but it seems my own EGR tubing has mysteriously "rotted off" at the connecting ends of the intake and exhaust. Oops? The ends of the tubing are a strange flange, but they can be cut off and retained, and you can (if you are handy with a welder) fill the tube with welding wire to seal it off. I followed that up by filling the inside of the tube with high-temperature silicone to completely seal the blockage, then just clamped the flanges back into place. The EGR device itself is still bolted to the engine block... Someday that might "fall out" too, you never know. But as you can't physically SEE it unless you know exactly where to look... The loss of that tubing seems to be a minor thing to me. Your opinions may vary.

Viva la revolucion!

camo · **Posted:** Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:59 pm

here is a couple of facts. after about 25k miles ran on the GDE tune my oil stays clear clean to at least 2500 miles before it starts looking dark. also the map sensor is as clean as I left it the time I cleaned it when I got the tune. so... if I was to say something base on this evidence, I would say there is no EGR flow inside my engine and I am happy about it :-)r

dkenny · **Posted:** Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:13 am

Here's the part you have to decide for yourself about this: The EGR itself is an electric motor operating a screw, to open or close off the port. This motor takes an amount of time while the signal is either on or off, to change state. When the signal changes state, so does the motor... Again taking an amount of time to physically MOVE from A to B. Can this motor do this in the half-second allotted? I personally do not think so. Further, rapidly reversing polarity on an electric motor is a FAST way to annoy it and cause it to fail out. This isn't a big issue for our purposes, we don't like that thing anyway, and it usually only lasts about 16k miles in stock form anyway! HOWEVER... Do you want to risk that the thing fails in the OPEN position, leaking all your boost out? I sure don't!

um..NO..NO SCREW!! sorry I have take apart and clean my wife'e egr twice...its not a screw type mechanism. think solenoid instead..like a relay. open/closed..not partial.. ..its still an terrible design!!

that aside..the rest of its function its JUNK!!

depending on the motor size and type 1/2s reversal is nothing!! before you jump and think I'm kidding..just flip you temp adjust..from cold to hot and back..how fast..this moves a motor and physical door.. every time..
fyi think about an oscillating sander..gee 10k enough?but these are oranges....regardless a solenoid switching 60 times a second is nothing..

sorry forgot to add my thougths.
I went with SEGR..it kills the egr..by making the ECM think it working while its not doing anything..it does require modifing the wiring and buying/building a unit. GDE..reprogrammes the ECM..given the money I would have gone with GDE..I don't and being electrically inclined I went with SEGR..it works.
-dkenny

CHessMaster · **Posted:** Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:42 am

geordi wrote:

The FCV can be electrically unplugged without a CEL happening... IF you have either an SEGR or a GDE tune. It is NOT NEEDED FOR ANYTHING ELSE by the computer, and pulling the butterfly valve CANNOT HURT ANYTHING AT ALL. Leave the electrics connected if you want (I left mine hooked up) and forget it is in there.

Viva la revolucion!

Don't forget that the FCV is also used for a smooth(er) engine shut down by completely closing for about 10 seconds when you turn the engine off.

This blocks air from going into the cylinders, making much less compression and helps to lessen the "kick" when the engine stops. The FCV is otherwise disabled by the SEGR in all other operating conditions (by the relay on the circuit board). So the computer does control the FCV in this situation, which is really the only condition we would want it to work.

Leaving this function active as part of the SEGR operation was genius by Turbo Tim!

My SEGR has been going for close to 5 years (100,000 miles) with no problems at all

.

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

The EGR is a dual poppet valve with PWM control from 5% to 95% duty cycle, it can vary the opening from 1mm to about 10mm. The FCV is a slave to the EGR valve and works with an open loop control. EGR 95% (full closed) FCV full open, EGR at 50% FCV at about 30 degrees closed. EGR at 5% (full open) FCV at about 75 degrees closed. During engine shut down the FCV will go full closed at a 90 degree angle. These figures are based of the stock tune.

SEGR and a GDE tune will accomplish the same end result. No additional soot build up in the intake manifold. Neither option will fix a mechanically stuck open EGR valve. In this situation you can do a block off plate or remove valve, clean and reinstall.

Using the EGR as a dump valve for excess boost was already in the software on the stock tune, we are not reinventing the wheel here. We made changes in the VGT control loop to shift the operating point further away from the surge limit. The stock CRD operates very close to surge limit and this is the primary factor for the poor life expectancy of the stock turbo running a production tune.

The EGR also has a cleaning routine that will cycle the valve full open/full closed and the valve response is very quick...less than a half second. This routine obviously does not work very well in reality or there would not have been 10,000 plus EGR failures in the field.

We have yet to hear from a customer with an EGR issue after installing a GDE tune...less the 4-5 customers that had stuck open EGRs, which were solved by cleaning the valve.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:01 pm

I just have to ask a perhaps stupid question. How does one know if the EGR is stuck open? Does that throw a code?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

In a perfect world the diagnostics will catch a stuck open EGR and throw a P0402 code (EGR stuck open). If the EGR is physically stuck open, it is very difficult to build boost pressue as the drive pressure through the turbine is reduced significantly since a good portion is being bled back to the intake through the EGR valve. The result is very weak performance off the line and clouds of black smoke. Some CRD owners with this code may need to completely clean the intake manifold due to massive soot buildup. We have seen a few of these so clogged the flow was roughly 90% blocked. In this situation a tune is irrelevant, nothing can improve the fuel economy if breathing through a straw.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:52 pm

camo wrote:

here is a couple of facts. after about 25k miles ran on the GDE tune my oil stays clear clean to at least 2500 miles before it starts looking dark. also the map sensor is as clean as I left it the time I cleaned it when I got the tune. so... if I was to say something base on this evidence, I would say there is no EGR flow inside my engine and I am happy about it :-)r

Agreed. My oil stays noticebly cleaner after an oil change. Previously it would be black within a couple hundred kilometers.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:59 pm

Thanks.

camo · **Posted:** Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:16 am

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

The EGR is a dual poppet valve with PWM control from 5% to 95% duty cycle, it can vary the opening from 1mm to about 10mm. The FCV is a slave to the EGR valve and works with an open loop control. EGR 95% (full closed) FCV full open, EGR at 50% FCV at about 30 degrees closed. EGR at 5% (full open) FCV at about 75 degrees closed. During engine shut down the FCV will go full closed at a 90 degree angle. These figures are based of the stock tune.

SEGR and a GDE tune will accomplish the same end result. No additional soot build up in the intake manifold. Neither option will fix a mechanically stuck open EGR valve. In this situation you can do a block off plate or remove valve, clean and reinstall.

Using the EGR as a dump valve for excess boost was already in the software on the stock tune, we are not reinventing the wheel here. We made changes in the VGT control loop to shift the operating point further away from the surge limit. The stock CRD operates very close to surge limit and this is the primary factor for the poor life expectancy of the stock turbo running a production tune.

The EGR also has a cleaning routine that will cycle the valve full open/full closed and the valve response is very quick...less than a half second. This routine obviously does not work very well in reality or there would not have been 10,000 plus EGR failures in the field.

We have yet to hear from a customer with an EGR issue after installing a GDE tune...less the 4-5 customers that had stuck open EGRs, which were solved by cleaning the valve.

I just would like to get some clarification on something. Does the dump valve function only happen going from WOT to a low throttle condition, or is there any another condition on which it actuates?

galatron · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:48 am

Wow. Amazing responses.
so. Don't tell anyone. But I made these half dollar things that go in place of the pipes where they go into the intake and exhaust manifold. Then i pulled all the egr equipent off the truck. Where i live we dont do no emmissions testing. And probably never will.

Can't wait to pull the cat and muffler. What nonsense.

Mod to Intake - sealing off EGR

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