CRD transmission questions

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:13 pm

Background-
vehicle is new to us as of 6 weeks ago. Purchased with ~78K miles on it.

No maintenance records. PO was a small family; no indication that any significant OR or other non-suburban usage occurred. No evidence of towing. We bought this vehicle knowing that CRD had known transmission problems (TC etc.) so I am not surprised that this one has problems.

Engine oil when purchased was believed to be a 10W or 15W -?? oil based on apparent viscosity, probably non-synthetic. (This was changed immediately after arriving home to Mobil-1 Diesel 5W-40.)

Coolant appears to be standard radiator coolant, not HOAT. Have yet to confirm.

MAP sensor had never been cleaned. Stealership informs us that the TC was changed.

I have ordered the WIX filter set for changing the transmission filter, but have not changed the fluid or filter yet.

Am having the following transmission issues with the CRD:

-After thorough warmup, running at highway speeds (60 mph) with overdrive NOT disengaged when encountering slight upgrade or when accelerator is gently depressed, vehicle downshifts, and seems to be hunting for a lower gear. After one or two seconds of wavering RPMs, there is a very noticeable clunk/bang which seems to come from the rear, and it downshifts so that the engine is turning around 2600 RPM give or take.

-This event is frequently but not always accompanied by a CEL / P0700 fault code; (Bad TCM)I have gotten some others, (P0734 and P0735) but that one is consistent. After that, the overdrive seems to be disengaged by the computer. I have stopped the vehicle, turned off the engine, and been able to restore OD function.

-When run with the overdrive turned off at the gearshift, the transmission function is flawless under normal operation once warmed up; when cold, it does exhibit the symptoms of leaky drain-back valve. Cold, with light acceleration there is some jarring on the 2-3 shift.

Not holding the OD in the low revs/load condition, and the resulting CEL is my primary concern.

It is entirely possible, given the poor maintenance procedures I have seen from the PO so far, that the transmission was refilled with non-spec fluid and/or that there is a bad filter. My first order of business is to change the fluid and filter. How do you get all the fluid out of this transmission? Will the vacuum tube down the dipstick trick get all the fluid?

After doing that, and assuming that these problems continue, my thinking is that it is also possible that I have a bad pump, a bad solenoid or bad programming. Thoughts and suggestions welcomed.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:40 pm

At this stage of the game I'm inclined to agree that inappropriate fluid (e.g. not ATF+4) is a potential cause along with possibly bad or somewhat clogged filters so a fluid and filter change is in order. The only way I know of to get all the fluid out is a complete flush and fill but I honestly cannot tell you how to do a flush (e.g. complete fluid change) on the transmission. Hopefully someone knows. Alternatively, I know it's a pain in the you know what absent a tranny pan drain plug, you could consider several fills and drains before doing the tranny filter service to get most of whatever fluid is in there out.

In theory you can do a complete flush by disconnecting the tranny to tranny cooler line and using the tranny, presumably in park or neutral (there is a suggestion that this tranny pumps fluid faster in neutral than park), pump fluid out of that line into a bucket while pouring new fluid in as fast as it pumps out. How safe or effective that process is I have less than zero opinion.

Anyone???

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:10 pm

papaindigo wrote:

At this stage of the game I'm inclined to agree that inappropriate fluid (e.g. not ATF+4) is a potential cause along with possibly bad or somewhat clogged filters so a fluid and filter change is in order. The only way I know of to get all the fluid out is a complete flush and fill but I honestly cannot tell you how to do a flush (e.g. complete fluid change) on the transmission. Hopefully someone knows. Alternatively, I know it's a pain in the you know what absent a tranny pan drain plug, you could consider several fills and drains before doing the tranny filter service to get most of whatever fluid is in there out.

In theory you can do a complete flush by disconnecting the tranny to tranny cooler line and using the tranny, presumably in park or neutral (there is a suggestion that this tranny pumps fluid faster in neutral than park), pump fluid out of that line into a bucket while pouring new fluid in as fast as it pumps out. How safe or effective that process is I have less than zero opinion.

Anyone???

HAs anyone any suggestions about how to flush the transmission?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:14 pm

papaindigo wrote:

At this stage of the game I'm inclined to agree that inappropriate fluid (e.g. not ATF+4) is a potential cause along with possibly bad or somewhat clogged filters so a fluid and filter change is in order. The only way I know of to get all the fluid out is a complete flush and fill but I honestly cannot tell you how to do a flush (e.g. complete fluid change) on the transmission. Hopefully someone knows. Alternatively, I know it's a pain in the you know what absent a tranny pan drain plug, you could consider several fills and drains before doing the tranny filter service to get most of whatever fluid is in there out.

In theory you can do a complete flush by disconnecting the tranny to tranny cooler line and using the tranny, presumably in park or neutral (there is a suggestion that this tranny pumps fluid faster in neutral than park), pump fluid out of that line into a bucket while pouring new fluid in as fast as it pumps out. How safe or effective that process is I have less than zero opinion.

Anyone???

Another thought is that what goes to the cooler comes back, at least it is designed to. Where does it go when it goes back?

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:05 pm

In the two fluid and filter changes I've done on my CRD I've found that most of the fluid drains out of the system. The manual lists the service fill as 10 pts (5 qts) and the overhaul fill as 28 pts (14 qts). When I drop the pain to drain it I let it sit overnight so everything can stop dripping and I can get a good seal with the RTV. It's one of the jobs I don't like to repeat.

Anyway, both times I've done mine I've gotten about 9.5 qts out. I figure another half quart was in the filters, shop towels, my hands, etc. So I put 9 qts in before driving, get it good and warm, and it's taken another 1 to 1.5 qts to fill it. I was surprised by this at the most recent change so I checked my notes from before, and sure enough...10.5 qts.

So if the listed capacities are correct, then most of the fluid will just flow right out. The easiest approach might be to change it with cheap ATF+4, run for a week, and change again with some nice synthetic ATF+4.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:27 pm

Thanks, Chester, I may just adopt this approach.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:56 pm

If you or someone you know can braze a bung onto the pan would make the second time easier :jester:

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:49 pm

OK, the fluid was drained last night and I let it drip overnight. The cartridge filter had a mfr date of 1/2011; this is newer than the Wix filter that I am about to put in, so it would appear that sometime between January and December of 2011 the filter and filter were changed. I have no way of knowing what type of fluid was used, but the fluid did not appear discolored nor did it smell burned or bad. (yes, I know what bad fluid smells like.) I'm going to refill with +4 ATF and see what happens now.

I am hopeful that this was simply a fluid issue, but if not I will be back seeking further advice.

audiboy86 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:22 pm

What color was the fuild and you could of taken it to a good transmission shop and they would of done a flush and fill for probably alittle more then fluid cost.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:03 pm

further update:

I added 9 quarts of ATF +4 in total, which is about what I got out, less a bit of loss to towels, filters, etc..

The fluid that I removed was noticeably more viscous, and a deeper red color, than the ATF +4 that I put back in. I left the +4 in the Jeep overnight so that both sets of fluids were the same temperature. It also smelled differently than the +4. There was no sludge in the pan, the filters were a year old based on the date printed on the cartridge filter, and there was no metal particulate on the magnet. I also installed a drain plug in the transmission pan to make future drains a bit easier. It would appear that the "expert" who serviced the transmission recently before I bought it, either could not read, did not read, or simply ignored the transmission fluid specifications. (If I have my wish, that particular idiot will have a breakdown and have to do a 'John Colter' through the national Antelope refuge. In winter.)

I drove it for about 40 miles through rolling hills and up and down some nearby mountains, and while the clunk and code did occur early in the trip, the severity seemed less and things seemed to get better as time went on. Part of the reason I am still having some symptoms is probably that I still have some of the wrong fluid in, and part of the reason probably is that the thermostat has gone and the engine is running cool, which means the transmission is also, which means in turn that the ATF viscosity is higher than it should be.

That is the present hypothesis, at any rate. My intention is to do another drain and refill next weekend, by which time I will have the Tstat on hand and can replace that, too.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:16 am

I'd agree that you still have some of the old incorrect fluid in there but IMHO the fact that you engine's cooling system tstat is not bringing the engine upto full operating temp should have little or nothing to do with whether or not the transmission is fully warming up. Easy enough to tell, after a 40 mile drive pull the transmission dip stick and if the end is essentially too hot to hold the tranny fluid is at operating temp.

RJM · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:42 am

Check the gasket on the pickup filter neck the next time you have it open. Some aftermarket filters do not have one, or a poor excuse for one. This causes air to be sucked through the system and all sorts of erratic behavior with the tranny. :2cents:

jws84_02 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:27 am

This was the case for me when I did my tranny flush. I decided to leave the old filter on. I didnt want to take a chance of ruining the gasket and I didn't have an extra one on hand. I did change the spin on filter and I got a little over 10 qts out of mine

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:07 pm

RJM wrote:

Check the gasket on the pickup filter neck the next time you have it open. Some aftermarket filters do not have one, or a poor excuse for one. This causes air to be sucked through the system and all sorts of erratic behavior with the tranny. :2cents:

Thanks for the tip; if you mean the flexible seal at the top of the tube that seats into the transmission body I did check that when I put the new Wix filter set in, and I got a good seal. The old one was seated firmly too. Given that I have seen notable improvement with replacement of about 2/3 of the fluid, and given that the old fluid was in fact much thicker and stickier than the ATF +4, I am going to pursue this avenue. 2 more overnight flushes will reduce the total of the old fluid to about 4% of the original. If that was the problem, then that should solve it.

If not, then I have some more opportunity for education! :lol:

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:14 pm

papaindigo wrote:

I'd agree that you still have some of the old incorrect fluid in there but IMHO the fact that you engine's cooling system tstat is not bringing the engine upto full operating temp should have little or nothing to do with whether or not the transmission is fully warming up. Easy enough to tell, after a 40 mile drive pull the transmission dip stick and if the end is essentially too hot to hold the tranny fluid is at operating temp.

I did check the fluid when I got back from the longer drive, but I used a shop towel to grab and wipe the end of the transmission dipstick. Have no idea how warm it was; I'll have to check it next time I drive it. Is the circulation of transmission fluid through the cooler thermostatically controlled? My understanding was that the fluid circulated will ye- nil ye, whenever the pump was running which means essentially whenever the engine is running. Am I incorrect?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:18 pm

ChesterCRD wrote:

In the two fluid and filter changes I've done on my CRD I've found that most of the fluid drains out of the system. The manual lists the service fill as 10 pts (5 qts) and the overhaul fill as 28 pts (14 qts). When I drop the pain to drain it I let it sit overnight so everything can stop dripping and I can get a good seal with the RTV. It's one of the jobs I don't like to repeat.

Anyway, both times I've done mine I've gotten about 9.5 qts out. I figure another half quart was in the filters, shop towels, my hands, etc. So I put 9 qts in before driving, get it good and warm, and it's taken another 1 to 1.5 qts to fill it. I was surprised by this at the most recent change so I checked my notes from before, and sure enough...10.5 qts.

So if the listed capacities are correct, then most of the fluid will just flow right out. The easiest approach might be to change it with cheap ATF+4, run for a week, and change again with some nice synthetic ATF+4.

BTW, isn't all ATF +4 synthetic? I thought that was part of the DC spec?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:26 pm

I'll try to address both point separately:
1. not quite - tranny fluid circulates thru the system, including as far as I know the tranny cooler, whenever the tranny is pumping fluid and the harder it's working the more fluid it moves and the more heat it generates. Trannys rarely pump much if any fluid in park but they do pump in neutral which is why if you suffer from the fluid drain back problem, I do, you can avoid that problem by 10-15 seconds of high idle in neutral before driving off. As long as I can remember folks have been idling the engine in cold weather to "warm" it up with the tranny in park totally ignoring that there has been no need to do this since multi-weight oils were invented AND since there is no connection to speak of between engine temp and tranny fluid temp that doing this ment they were driving on a warm engine and a cold tranny (not good for tranny). Best to crank up, idle for like 15 seconds (ideally in neutral) while you adjust seat/seatbelt/mirror, then drive off at a moderate speed until the temp gauge shows signs of life. That way both engine and tranny/drivetrain are warm. Before someone flames me yes I know we have a 2 stage pump and there may be a bit of fluid pumped while idling in park but if so not much, I know as doing so won't get you past the drain back problem but idling in neutral will. So since there is no particular connection between engine temp and tranny temp and absent a tranny temp gauge the only way I know of to check tranny fluid temp is the old fashioned finger on the dipstick test.
2. ATF+4 may or may not always be synthetic I simply don't know. What I do know is ATF+4 is a tranny fluid spec that must be met for Chrysler transmissions and that http://www.centerforqa.com/licensedatf4brands.html provides a list of fluids that meet that spec. That's a polite way of saying just because ATF+4 is on the bottle doesn't mean it's certified to meet the specs (e.g. it might or might not) so I'd stick with listed products. Similar with antifreeze stick with a name brand that you positively know meets spec and stay the heck away from anything that says "universal" or "compatable with".

I suspect fluid is some if not all of your problem but one other thing to consider is after you have purged the whatever it is stuff you might have to run a "quick learn" procedure on your transmission unfortunately that's requires a trip to the dealer so if things pretty much smooth out drive for a while and let the tranny learn on its own. Others may have more knowledge about this than I do though.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:58 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

My intention is to do another drain and refill next weekend, by which time I will have the Tstat on hand and can replace that, too.

Do yourself a favour and get yourself a vacuum extractor. You can pull the fluid direct out of the dipstick tube instead of dropping the pan. I always suck first even if dropping the pan to remove the filters as it's a lot less messy this way.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:04 pm

I had my own fun using non ATF+4 fluid.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61955

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:15 pm

papaindigo wrote:

I'll try to address both point separately:
1. not quite - tranny fluid circulates thru the system, including as far as I know the tranny cooler, whenever the tranny is pumping fluid and the harder it's working the more fluid it moves and the more heat it generates. Trannys rarely pump much if any fluid in park but they do pump in neutral which is why if you suffer from the fluid drain back problem, I do, you can avoid that problem by 10-15 seconds of high idle in neutral before driving off. As long as I can remember folks have been idling the engine in cold weather to "warm" it up with the tranny in park totally ignoring that there has been no need to do this since multi-weight oils were invented AND since there is no connection to speak of between engine temp and tranny fluid temp that doing this meant they were driving on a warm engine and a cold tranny (not good for tranny). Best to crank up, idle for like 15 seconds (ideally in neutral) while you adjust seat/seatbelt/mirror, then drive off at a moderate speed until the temp gauge shows signs of life. That way both engine and tranny/drivetrain are warm. Before someone flames me yes I know we have a 2 stage pump and there may be a bit of fluid pumped while idling in park but if so not much, I know as doing so won't get you past the drain back problem but idling in neutral will. So since there is no particular connection between engine temp and tranny temp and absent a tranny temp gauge the only way I know of to check tranny fluid temp is the old fashioned finger on the dipstick test.

Yes, understood. My thought was that since it is cold here, and since the engine is a) cold, and b) not working hard, that the odds were that the tranny wasn't hot, not like it would be if I were driving in the Superstitions in August, but as you correctly point out, one actual data point beats a thousand educated guesses. I'll get the data next opportunity.

papaindigo wrote:

2. ATF+4 may or may not always be synthetic I simply don't know. What I do know is ATF+4 is a tranny fluid spec that must be met for Chrysler transmissions and that http://www.centerforqa.com/licensedatf4brands.html provides a list of fluids that meet that spec. That's a polite way of saying just because ATF+4 is on the bottle doesn't mean it's certified to meet the specs (e.g. it might or might not) so I'd stick with listed products. Similar with antifreeze stick with a name brand that you positively know meets spec and stay the heck away from anything that says "universal" or "compatable with".

I bought some supertech from WalMart, which is an approved ATF +4 brand. Walmart says that it is synthetic. :?:

Quien Sabe? LMW says he'd like independent confirmation of that. :lol:

papaindigo wrote:

I suspect fluid is some if not all of your problem but one other thing to consider is after you have purged the whatever it is stuff you might have to run a "quick learn" procedure on your transmission unfortunately that's requires a trip to the dealer so if things pretty much smooth out drive for a while and let the tranny learn on its own. Others may have more knowledge about this than I do though.

Yes, I have thought about that, and again, my guess is that learning is what helped smooth things out the last test drive. I may have to look into a quick learn, but one step at a time.

Thanks, Papa, for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.

regards, LMW

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