Air in fuel after fill ups + Gauge reads full

slasher · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:20 pm

Hi all,

First request for help on this forum.

I've got a couple of problems :oops:

Last week I filled my tank and drove about 200 yards and the engine cut out and wouldnt start. I Lifted the bonnet (hood) primed the filter and it started 1st go and was fine until Saturday (after 450 miles). I put around 3 gallons in, drove for about a mile and same thing happened only this time it wouldnt start until I bled lots of air from the filter and was running like a bag of farts when I got it to start/run. Fitted a new filter today, took forever to bleed started and ran for about 2 mins then stopped again but now has check engine light (before you ask I don't have any codes as I wouldnt know where to start looking for a reader here). It will start after bleeding but not for long so I'm thinking I may need the updated fuel filter head (though the heater plug is bone dry)?

I dont know if this is connected to the problem but since I got it running again (Saturday)the fuel gauge is showing full with the overhead computer showing a range of 410 miles. I've disconnected the Battery but its still showing full. Is it connected or do I have a different problem??

Any help appriciated.

Jim

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:16 pm

When you changed the fuel filter, did the old filter come off with its gasket? If you leave the old gasket on the filter head you won't get a good seal (since there will be two gaskets) and have trouble with air.

How full is the fuel tank actually?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:22 pm

I gather you are in the UK but since you have an 06 model you should have the same fuel filter as on the US model. See Sir Sam's NOOB guide, up on the CRD Love that Torque page, for the fuel filter bleeding video. At the end of that video is an illustration of the 2n gen filter head. If you do not have a 2n gen head installed there is a decent chance the air is coming in from a leak in the fuel heater electric plug. That leak can be hard to detect since our fuel pump location in on the engine so air tends to be pulled into the system rather than fuel pushed out. You can try removing that plug and checking the inside with a bit of twisted up tissue (paper towel) and if there is any hint of diesel smell on the tissue that's your leak (FYI mine appeared bone dry but the tissue smelled of diesel; when I replaced the head the interior contacts were clearly burned; after replacement my air in fuel problem went away). Also use a dry tissue to check for leaks around where the filter mounts on the head and the WIF at the bottom and double check that the 2 hoses on the head are clamped tight.

X2 on Chester's gasket comment.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the gauge issue but I'll toss out some comments. The range on the overhead computer doesn't "mean" anything unless you reset it to "0" when you fill up the tank. If you do that then I think the range is calculated based on the computer calculated mileage (accuracy varies) assuming a full tank. Absent that reset the range is totally meaningless. I'm not sure what the fuel gauge shows with the battery disconnected but I can tell you that a symptom of a battery going bad can be very strange fuel gauge readings commonly dropping from full to 2/3rds full in like 30 miles and then jumping back up to full or similar strange readings. If you download a copy of the FSMs (get both 05 and 06 as 05 has the illustration keys the 06 lacks) there is a cluster test you can run to see if you lights and gauges work properly.

slasher · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:00 pm

Thanks

Chester, I checked the gaskets 1 big 1 small stayed on old filter and there is probably about 3-4 (imperial) Gallons maximum in it now.

Papaindigo, it's funny you mentioned the battery, when I pulled the rear axle shafts to repair the (flimsy) rear brake backing plates I had to leave it in neutral with the key in the ignition and (eventually, after re-fitting spider gears) when I got it all back together the battery was flat. So yes i have had a battery issue in the last 2 weeks. I've just bought another battery to swap between my Renault and my GPW as and when needed so I'll check the size and ratings and see if that makes any difference. I've done the cluster test and everything works fine apart from the gauge going back to full after the test ends.

I've dried off the whole thing and primed it again so in the morning I'll have a look to see if any leaks have developed.

Thanks again for the help.

slasher · **Posted:** Sat May 05, 2012 11:48 am

Update

New fuel filter head fitted today (how much? I think they just change the $ sign to a £ sign here) and it runs a bit better so thought I'd have another look around the engine bay etc and found a wet (around where it enters the block) injector :roll:

I unplugged it and it sounded exactly the same as it does just before it cuts out, so could this be the problem making it cut out or is this a new different issue??

How can I tell if the injectors totally gone or (hopefully) if it needs a new 'O' ring (I think thats what its called).

Thanks in advance

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat May 05, 2012 12:16 pm

Assuming the wet was diesel fuel, easy enough to tell, then you almost certainly need to pull that injector and replace the "O" ring and crush washer and torque things back up to spec. being careful not to break any of the plastic fuel delivery stuff. Those 2 items should be pretty inexpensive even in your part of the world (see Sir Sam's NOOB guide for parts #s in the parts fiche and how to in the FSM copies). When you pull the injector be sure to look under where the hold down "foot" sits on the top of the engine; there is supposed to be a very small steel plate (about the size of a small watch battery) in a recess at that spot. If that plate is missing the "foot" won't torque down properly and the injector will leak; we have had at least one member who came up short on those plates from some prior service.

Leaky injector I don't think would have relation to air in the filter head but might contribute to engine cut out.

slasher · **Posted:** Sat May 05, 2012 6:10 pm

Thanks Papaindigo

I pulled the injector out easy enough with help from the FSM, now firstly the steel plate (watch battery size) is that supposed to come out or does it stay where it is? (its there but does not seem to be removable). Second, is the injector supposed to look like this when removed?

Though it cleaned up nice.

Jim

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sat May 05, 2012 6:22 pm

Depends on where the oil came from. On mine, #4 was dry like the Mojave while #1 was more like an oiled road because I didn't always hit the fill tube when adding a quart... ; ' )

Looks like quite a bit of oil to me - any idea on the source?

Mark

slasher · **Posted:** Sat May 05, 2012 6:39 pm

Its #1 and think its the same as you, spilling oil over time (p.o.) not me, honest

, most of the hole the injector sits in was full of diesel which I had to soak up before pulling it, seems odd to have a deep void to collect dirt and you also dont notice a diesel leak until it overflows, even the M Series have a rain cap to stop water etc getting into the plug holes (they dont work very well but its the thought that counts). I was more concerned about the diesel between the 'O' ring and the tip, does that mean that the copper washer and 'O' ring were shot?

Cheers

Jim

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun May 06, 2012 9:01 am

Yes the washer and "O" ring are shot and in anycase they should never be reused. What you are seeing is mostly unburned diesel fuel combined with dust/dirt/goo collected due to leaking diesel fuel. I'm not sure but I suspect the system has been overcompensating on fuel delivery to this injector because of the leak which may be part of your start/run problem. Carefully clean the injector and place where the injector goes into the engine (no scrubbing with abrasive stuff) taking care to keep debris out of the engine and then reinstall with new "O" ring and washer. If you have access to a diesel injector shop and their prices are reasonable it might be a good idea to have them clean and check this particular injector.

On that little steel plate. My point was for you to make sure it was there and stayed there on reinstall. It's a light press fit (one forum member was able to remove with a magnet) and can be replaced. The underlying issue is there have been cases where that item went missing during prior service and down the road caused injector(s) to leak.

slasher · **Posted:** Sun May 06, 2012 11:49 am

The injector port on the engine all cleaned up using a Bren Gun cleaning kit, just got to try and get the parts and a new (decent) torque wrench tuesday.

slasher · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Update

A week after ordering the parts they arrived (yesterday) so with new torque wrench in hand I fitted the injector back in, then put a new battery on and hooked up my new code reader.

4 x Codes were P0093 x2, P0183 x 1 and CEL . Large fuel leak and fuel heater (both now fixed) I presume these caused the CEL?

Started almost straight away, fuel gauge still reads full so took it round the block and noticed it still seemed to misfire a couple of times but no new codes

Possibly had some air in the system after replacing everything which would cause the miss but anyone have any ideas about the fuel gauge :?:

Cheers

Jim

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 3:53 pm

Sounds like your system is a candidate for a fuel pump?

If not, at least, consider replacing the snap connectors near the fuel tank with something that will not allow air in when under a vacuum from the engine mounted/driven Bosch CP3 fuel pump. I'd also 'walk back' from the CP3, tightening all the fittings to make sure there aren't any loose connections allowing air to enter.

The fuel delivery on these diesels is somewhat problematic - air entering the system is fairly common and problematic.

Mark

slasher · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 4:03 pm

msilbernagel wrote:

consider replacing the snap connectors near the fuel tank with something that will not allow air in when under a vacuum from the engine mounted/driven Bosch CP3 fuel pump.

Thanks Mark, would I need to drop the tank to do that properly? It looks like its 4 x bolts holding it up and the jubilee clip holding the filler neck to the tank. I'm assuming the joints you mean are where the plastic pipes meet the steel ones and is it the plastic pipes I'd need to replace or just the joints?

Jim

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 4:11 pm

I think dropping the tank is the simplest means to access the connectors, yes. If you're careful you may not have to disconnect the filler tube. Try to do the work with as little fuel in the tank as possible.. for obvious reasons. When I worked on mine, I used a spare electric fuel pump to drain the fuel - attaching it near the filter assy for ease of access.

As for the fittings - yes, where the lines meet just forward and near the top of the tank.. those disconnects don't seem to seal a vacuum well. I think the lines are ok, it's just the fittings that give us grief. I don't recall the details but others seem to have found a good solution.

In my case, I installed an in-tank pump but if you put an inline pump there (with sufficient capacity) the existing fittings should be fine as they'd be lightly pressurized; say, 2-10 psi accelerating under load with a new filter. You want the pump to maintain at least 0 psi until the filter needs replacement, if you can.

Mark

slasher wrote:

msilbernagel wrote:

consider replacing the snap connectors near the fuel tank with something that will not allow air in when under a vacuum from the engine mounted/driven Bosch CP3 fuel pump.

Thanks Mark, would I need to drop the tank to do that properly? It looks like its 4 x bolts holding it up and the jubilee clip holding the filler neck to the tank. I'm assuming the joints you mean are where the plastic pipes meet the steel ones and is it the plastic pipes I'd need to replace or just the joints?

Jim

slasher · **Posted:** Sun May 20, 2012 11:17 am

Ok here's where I'm up to,

Couldnt work out how the fuel pipe fittings came apart and am not too keen on taking a hacksaw to them so used some rubber plumbers tape and sealed the area (and it worked!!).

Next was the fuel gauge, it works ok on the dash test so problem probably at the tank end, cannot get the bolts out to lower the tank to get to the plug so I stripped the wires instead to check, I was looking for power on 1 and a ground on the other (bad earth normally means full gauge right?), however both have nothing atall. So my question now is, after the wires go from the tank, join with more and go under the rear seat, where do they come out? Do they plug into something or are they the magical type that just disapear into the loom? (it originally happened, full gauge, after stalling as in 1st post)

Thanks in advance

Jim

slasher · **Posted:** Wed May 30, 2012 3:20 pm

All fixed, (I think)

Fuel gauge fixed itself when the rear demister was switched on

so swapped the battery again for a proper one and its fine. I've put a Fumoto drain on, re-filled with 5w 40 Synth, new oil and air filters and pulled the plug on the air box, not got round to the MAP yet as I've got to move the hoses and wiring to get to it and then probably lie across the engine to reach it properly, 4mm allen key?

Thanks for the help guys, you made it all alot easier than I thought it would be!

Now what shall I do to it next :lol:

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed May 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Well, congratulations! Persistence pays off - simultaneous issues can be quite challenging to diagnose and isolate.

You have somewhere around 138-140k miles? Have you done the timing belt service yet?

Mark

slasher · **Posted:** Thu May 31, 2012 3:54 am

Hi Mark

Timing belt was done by dealer at 100,489 miles

The car was originally a lease car for a company in the UK so I have the full Jeep dealer and lease company reports from 0 to 116,624 miles, then the previous owners records (MOT and non dealer sevice receipts) to 125,709 and I bought it at 128,000.

I think it might be discs next, they were changed at 88,000 and a new set of pads but I'll probably find something else to do before then :roll:

Air in fuel after fill ups + Gauge reads full

Who is online