SCREWED, OR NOT SCREWED? (SUCCESS, OR FAILURE?)

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

First, I am very positive about my CRD. I have 21k miles in a year and only 1 repair (EGR/reflash) other than maintenence (on 10k oil/filter schedule).

However, in a "philosophical" way I am wondering if I got screwed by DCX in buying the CRD. It certianly appears that there will be no CRD in '07 and if the diesel returns in '08 it will not be the Motori engine and probably not in the Liberty. So, did I (we) get screwed? Did DCX use me (us) as lab rats for a diesel product test ? (after all they NEVER advertised it) Did they know all along that the Motori could not (ever?) pass the new EPA regs? Did the CRD sell well enough to justify further diesel vehicles other than trucks? Is the poor attitude displayed by many dealers a "cut your losses" theme, or did DCX TELL them not to bother? Assuming that the CRD is gone as we know it, what does that do to my (our) investment in the car? Does it make it rare and special, or will we have to pay someone to take it on trade when we are done?

I can't answer the above, and in talking with my old salesman he claims that the problem is that DCX did not anticipate the big demand for the CRD and cannot ramp up Motori enough to produce enough engines (with EPA mods) for the US/Canada market and still maintiain a production for Europe/Asia. So the problem he says is too much success.

So what is the truth? I don't know, maybe someone else has better insight.

I am getting 24.5mpg in a "real" SUV with no problems (so far) and will continue to drive it until it falls apart. Maybe that is the best philosophy!

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:19 pm

Even if we were lab rats we got a good vehicle and if it meant that DC continues by offering a better more modern diesel to replace it that can't be a bad thing. It certainly would be worse if this were the end of the line. I will tell you, hoping that someone at DC is reading here too, I am not a MOPAR guy and only bought my new Liberty because it was a CRD.

I'm keeping mine too.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:33 pm

Dog,
I also have 16K miles yet with no repairs/reflashes. We obviously purchased a Diesel option for at least one of three reasons. First, we are mechanically inclined and like the thermal efficiency of a Diesel compared to a gasser. Second, we like to tow our toys or just enjoy the low end torque. Third, we like being unique from the crowd and don't follow the herd mentality. We like to be able to say that we get superior fuel mileage, 300 ft/lb torque and a go anywhere vehicle for on average at or below $25K.
Unfortunately, all vehicles (outside of demand swings for antiques) are classified as a "depreciating asset" never an investment. I think the question your posing is how faster will our purchase depreciate compared to our best alternative vehicle option at time of purchase. That philosophical question, only comes into play as you alluded when we don't drive the vehicle until the chassis drops off and have some remorse inducing event that makes us want to trade a vehicle in early.
So in my mind, I don't care about the reasons DCX decided to introduce the CRD or why they decided to take it off the market possibly in '07. I'll leave that for some future show about 10 years from now on the SPEED channel as some talking heads look back on the history of DCX.
I'm happy that DCX had the "guts" to introduce the CRD when they did and I'm happy that I bought it. The only better purchase we possibly could have made was the Jeep Gladiator with the CRD option. Jeep owners by nature are somewhat speculative, we knew we were going to incurr some risk with the CRD. Afterall, each time you take your rig out on the trail your taking a risk of coming back not quite the same as you left.

Cheers DZL!

onthehunt · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:40 pm

I can also say that I would have never even looked at the Liberty if it didn't have the diesel.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:09 pm

I know most of you likely feel used by DC (I do too). This is a not bad vehicle choice for DC to test the waters of the diesel market in the US and Canada. The engineering was already done for the rest of the world, DC just had to build a few more as diesels for N. America. Putting this into the hands of Jeepers was also a good choice. If they screwed up, a good jeeper would find a way to make it work. Try that with the domestic Caravan crowd, a formula for disaster.

Stan Wright · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:38 pm

When I was ordering my CRD the dealer had returned from a Jeep conference and also mentioned the possibility of no CRD in 2007 due to overdemand of the CRD engine. He said Europe was the "bread and butter" for the diesel engines.

My CRD is great and if the Liberty CRD is a limited run that's okay with me. The only negative thing I see is the aftermarket not spending the resources to develop items for the CRD.

Like 'onthehunt' said, if it wasn't for the diesel engine I wouldn't have even considered giving Jeep/Chrysler my money. My girlfriend wants a Grand Cherokee but won't look at one until it has a diesel.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:14 am

IF there isn't a CRD for '07 (and in my opinion that's a very big IF), and IF the reason is because DC just can't build engines fast enough to meet demand (and not because of some moronic EPA reg), and IF it means that we'll get more and better diesels down the road because the CRD made DC realize there's a great untapped mainstream market for them in the U.S., then I'll be grinning from ear to ear and proudly drive this little Italian "guinea pig" for as long as it lasts.

Let you guys in on what I consider to be a credible rumor, that another Detroit Diesel assy plant is going to be built in the U.S. in time to be on line by 2008.

And no, I didn't get that one from Milous. :roll:

RTStabler51 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:13 am

I went in knowing that the CRD was testing the US waters with a diesel engine option. With that I accepted all 'risks' associated with it.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

1. The CRD 2.8 engine not meeting the 2007 EPA regs isn't the problem. The V6 Mercedes diesel as it exists today won't meet the US 2007 EPA regs either. Neither will any European diesel, including the Honda 2.2 diesel. In fact, no currently shipping mass vehicle diesel engine will meet the 2007 EPA US regs.

2. The EPA regs will require downstream cleanup of the exhaust - BlueTec is one such technology. So even if DCX switches engines in the CRD Liberty, it won't matter - the newer ones will cost much more due to the expensive aftertreatments, will only run on S15 fuel, and will likely have slightly less power/torque and fuel economy per litre of displacement than 2006 and older diesel engines with CRD technology.

3. VW announced a changeover to CRD technology for 2008 and newer TDI diesels in their Jetta and Passat vehicles. Does anyone see TDI's dropping in resale value? No! They're next to impossible to get.

Our CRD's will run either the old S500 or S15 fuel, have no additional exhaust restrictions and will allow us to experiment with different muffler or straight pipe exhaust systems without violating any federal EPA laws. The newer particulate traps and NOx equipment will most likely be in the form of an integrated muffler-treatment system, which won't let anyone remove it. The newer particulate traps will also require some ash removal at 200K intervals by dealer service - another plus for our CRD's which will not require this.

Where else can you find a light duty diesel SUV/truck vehicle in the US with an advanced CRD system, vgt turbo, enormous power and at an affordable price point?

I wouldn't be concerned about it - we are the few fortunate ones who bought them just before the point of diminishing power/fuel economy returns, due to EPA regulations phasing in 2007. Even if the newer engines perform better, they will require a more expensive design to do so with all of the added after-treatment, which means you're going to pay more for a new Liberty CRD. This should help resale value, not hurt it.

valkraider · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:26 am

Just a quick question though...

What is the difference for me as an owner if they Keep or if they Discontinue the CRD?

There is no difference.

My CRD will keep working just as good as it is now. My warranty will still be honored. My vehicle will still burn biodiesel, and still tow my boat. My CRD is mine - no matter who has the opportunity to buy one in the future...

If you want to see what happens to limited run diesel engines in the USA after they are dicontinued, just look at a few vehicles. Like the diesel Isuzu pickups, or the TDI Passat. They are extremely sought after...

But in all reality - nothing changes for those of us who *already* have the CRD. So who cares?

n3qik · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:54 pm

onthehunt wrote:

I can also say that I would have never even looked at the Liberty if it didn't have the diesel.

I will second that statement. My CRD replaced a 2500 6.5L crew cab pickup that got 15 MPG city.

fireman1028 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:10 pm

Quote:

I can also say that I would have never even looked at the Liberty if it didn't have the diesel.

I will second that statement. My CRD replaced a 2500 6.5L crew cab pickup that got 15 MPG city.

I also, wouldn't have even considered the Liberty if it were not for the CRD option.

I sold a Supercharged 2003 Toyota Tacoma Dub Cab (sweet truck) that got 16mpg on premium

valkraider · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:47 pm

Oh yeah, I never would have looked at the Liberty if it were not a CRD.

I wanted to get off of using gasoline, I had a VW TDI for a few years using biodiesel. We got fed up with our Chevy van, and when the time came grabbed a CRD so we could use as little dinosaur oil as possible.

Went from 17-20mpg in my Chevy mini-van to 20-30mpg in my CRD. Went from gasoline to biodiesel. Went from 3000lb towing capacity to 5000lb towing capacity.

The only thing I miss from my van is the "utility" of more interior room and seats (although rarely used, nice when needed) and the dual large sliding doors.

But the Liberty is smaller and fits better in parking spaces and tows WAY WAY WAY better, and I can take the Jeep off-road (although the chevy had a nice all wheel drive that was great in the snow - for a mini van).

But all in all - if not for the diesel CRD option, I NEVER would have looked at a Jeep in any form.... I probably would have gone with a Chevy Duramax... Or maybe a Sprinter van... Although they are way more expensive...

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:50 pm

Add me to the list:

The CRD is the only reason I bought a Jeep.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:34 pm

Definately agree, the diesel was the only reason I bought a Liberty. Hopefully it won't be the reason I get rid of it.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:51 pm

Same here. I was on the verge of trading for a VW TDI, when the CRD came out. After that nice little 1500 mile test drive in my friend's CRD, seeing it firsthand get upwards of 34 MPG interstate on decent fuel, and being able to take advantage of being a DC employee AND retired military on the price, it didn't take me two weeks after I returned home to trade for one. If it hadn't been for the diesel option and that long term test drive, I wouldn't have considered a Jeep, much less ANY SUV.

Still looking at getting a TDI though, in addition to the CRD, now that I know how much fun diesels are!

Vox Fatalis · **Posted:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:56 pm

I don't see getting the CRD Liberty as being a failure. If the demand truly exceeded the the supply, I'd call that a success.

And I'd say your Jeep just appreciated in value.

Me, I love the CRD so far. Only 2k miles on the odometer, but good stuff thus far. Considering mods, and I already upgraded the stereo nicely.

Enjoy your rigs and don't worry too much about value or support. I don't think Daimler-Chrysler is going to let you down.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:50 am

I was the first one to say I only bought my Liberty because it was a diesel. Now that I have it I find that it is a kick in the b*tt besides being practical. Would I buy a gas Liberty? Probably not, as the gas mileage sucks. I need to keep my pickup for other reasons but the Jeep will pull my travel trailer, it will go off road, it will let me wade through my 1/4 mile driveway filled with a moderate amount of snow so I don't need to get out the tractor and freeze while I plow, it will do lots of things with relative economy for its multi purpose value. I could have spent less, a lot less on a Civic or an Echo and used my paid for truck though for most of those things and I would have done that before buying a gas Liberty.

It is interesting that so many of these CRD's have gone to non-MOPAR folks, and if this Forum is an indication, perhaps made them into Jeep fans along the way. DC should make note of that!

fireman1028 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:47 am

Quote:

perhaps made them into Jeep fans along the way. DC should make note of that!

I would agree except for DCX's dealership networks complete lack of customer service. The only customer service I have seen that is worse than DCX's is VW. If not for the CRD, I would not own a DCX product!!!

btw, My local Toyota dealer would go out of their way to make sure I was satisfied

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:18 am

Never owned a MOPAR vehicle before I bought the Magnum Sport Wagon and that is true love, rides and drives like an MB, 21 city 27 hwy and so much room as to be crazy even for a 6'5" (I have gained about 50lbs in 14 years since I retired form USN) jolly green giant like me. If they offer a MB V6 here in US in one, I will buy it in a hearbeat.

We had a 2 Jeeps before Chrysler bought Jeep and never had a problem with either one. The '87 Cherokee is still a daily driver by neighbor kid and has about 250,000 miles on it without ever having head off engine or tranny work done, a/c lasted 14 years. Wish I had not sold that car.

SCREWED, OR NOT SCREWED? (SUCCESS, OR FAILURE?)

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