New TSB 18-009-06 All 2005 CRD's

RFCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:48 am

Sounds like you are not in a 3 yrs and out type lease deal, you need to protect your investment. Get a CCV filter (not trying to endorse a brand) and use it. If your dealer doesn't have the common sense to understand the issue or run some interference with DC, then it time to find another dealer. DC (and VM Motori/Detroit Diesel) knows this is an issue and too arrogant to admit the problem.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:34 pm

Hey Cowcatcher,

If you want to check for oil in the intake you will need a 5/16 or 8mm socket or nutdriver or a plain old big screwdriver. The easiest place to check is the inlet to the intercooler. On the passenger side in the radiator area there are two big hoses - you want the uppermost one with the wormgear type clamp. The radiator connection is somewhat lower and smaller and uses a spring type clamp. Loosen the clamp on the intercooler hose until you can move it back and then wiggle and twist the hose till you get it off. It will be somewhat stuck, but shouldn't be too bad. If you have oil in the hose it will be obvious because the inside of the hose is bright orange and oil with any mileage on it dark black. Anyone who owns a CRD should do this check in my opinion. I would love to have the patience to take it to the dealer and ask them to explain what is going on. If anybody has the patience, please let me know about your experience. I already know what is going on, but to hear a dealer explain or justify it would be something. Humorous, infuriating, I don't know, you pick the adjective. Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a big deal. A fairly minor problem really - if it is dealt with early.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:51 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

Hey Cowcatcher,

If you want to check for oil in the intake you will need a 5/16 or 8mm socket or nutdriver or a plain old big screwdriver. The easiest place to check is the inlet to the intercooler. On the passenger side in the radiator area there are two big hoses - you want the uppermost one with the wormgear type clamp. The radiator connection is somewhat lower and smaller and uses a spring type clamp. Loosen the clamp on the intercooler hose until you can move it back and then wiggle and twist the hose till you get it off. It will be somewhat stuck, but shouldn't be too bad. If you have oil in the hose it will be obvious because the inside of the hose is bright orange and oil with any mileage on it dark black. Anyone who owns a CRD should do this check in my opinion. I would love to have the patience to take it to the dealer and ask them to explain what is going on. If anybody has the patience, please let me know about your experience. I already know what is going on, but to hear a dealer explain or justify it would be something. Humorous, infuriating, I don't know, you pick the adjective. Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a big deal. A fairly minor problem really - if it is dealt with early.

Thanks Matt, that was the info I was looking for.

Quote:

Sounds like you are not in a 3 yrs and out type lease deal, you need to protect your investment. Get a CCV filter (not trying to endorse a brand) and use it.

I appreciate that RFCRD and OldNavy too but I also have a 5 year warranty that I don't want to void. When I see the CCV valve and decide how easily I can install then uninstall it between dealer visits I will do it. If the turbo or something else fails with it on though I have already been told I would be toast from the same guy who told me to burn all the bio fuel I want as long as there are no french fres floating in the tank. Now when I get to know him a little better still and he understands that this will keep me from losing EGRs then I can leave it on.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:03 pm

Cowcatcher,

I agree with your sentiments. I am not going to do any mod to the Jeep that I can't easily undo when it needs to go to the dealer. The burden is on the dealer to prove that the mod caused the problem, but I don't want the grief. That said I expect the Old Navy CCV to be easy to deal with. Actually, my goal is to never take it to the dealer unless I need the computer flashed or something serious pukes. Mine needs the trans filter service bulletin done, I have no symptoms yet, but I'll probably just do it myself. It isn't worth it to me to get myself bent out of shape arguing with a dealer if I don't have to. I have an unusual situation though in that I bought my Libby out of state and don't really have a dealer. I have been interviewing the local dealers though. Calling with dumb questions, pricing parts, etc.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:38 pm

OK Matt and Old Navy, I got oil. Probably a good part of the QT that disappeared between 3500 and 5K. Not a drop low in the last 1600 though. So do I take it to my new friend the SR and ask him, "You told me you had never seen this, well you have now." Then I could show him the build date on my tranny of 2315, just a few days before the 2345 end date of suspicion.

How hard it the tranny filter to replace Matt?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:38 pm

Cowcatcher,

I don't believe anyone wants to steer you wrong, even your Jeep dealer. You should do what you feel comfortable concerning your dealer. Fortunately mine came from a combo Jeep/Dodge dealer that also services Cummins powered Rams. When pressed, they will admit what they see (oil contaminated CAC) is not good, a departure from the standard DC line that "oil is normal." Mine has been sitting in their shop for the past three days for the software updates with the Provent hooked-up. I even made sure the sludge bottle wasn't emptied before taking it in. They would have to be blind not to notice the Provent and the accumulated oil. A few weeks ago it was in for a transfer case seal and it was hooked up then. I know they took the time to open the CAC hoses while it was there because I had marked the clamps. So you know, I have 7yr/100K warranty and have the same concerns. I often think about cashing off the extended warranty. From what I see DC would have to pay me more to cancel than I paid to purchase it, much more.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:30 pm

Cowcatcher wrote:

OK Matt and Old Navy, I got oil. Probably a good part of the QT that disappeared between 3500 and 5K. Not a drop low in the last 1600 though. So do I take it to my new friend the SR and ask him, "You told me you had never seen this, well you have now." Then I could show him the build date on my tranny of 2315, just a few days before the 2345 end date of suspicion.

How hard it the tranny filter to replace Matt?

That's not a big deal if you have a little mechanical skill, I think they only pay .6 hrs for the repair. It a mess to drop the pan, trannu fluid every where. Be sure if they do the TSB that you take the CRD for about a 10 or 15 mile drive or longer if cold out and then check fluid in tranny on level ground and make sure it is full. My dealership didn't drive it far enough to get fluid hot and they ended up putting another 2.5 quarts or 3.5 quarts (old timers showing it's ugly head) don't remember exact amount, but they were amazed. You could add a quart and check, it would show full, but drive it a few miles and come to check and it was down were it was before. They first thought it was leaking, but I assured the tech & SM it was just getting it all up into the cooler and the filter was doing what it is suppose to do and not drain back out of torque converter. It still dead on the line about 6,000 or 7,000 miles later, just checked it again about a week ago.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:37 pm

OK, that brings up a thought. If you checked it after sitting over night and the filter was allowing the fluid to drain down then it should show over full on the dip in the moring right? I am having no symtoms now so I don't think I can get them to change it. I am sure I will have smptoms soon though. :twisted:

They will just have to take my word for it unless they keep it overnight.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:49 pm

Cowcatcher wrote:

OK, that brings up a thought. If you checked it after sitting over night and the filter was allowing the fluid to drain down then it should show over full on the dip in the moring right? I am having no symtoms now so I don't think I can get them to change it. I am sure I will have smptoms soon though. :twisted:

They will just have to take my word for it unless they keep it overnight.

No because they were not fill to proper amount at factory. I had no synptoms either, but I new my tranny was effected so I told them it was slow to ingage first thing in the morning after sitting over night. You really had to pay attention on ours or you would not feel it, but if you get too many miles of driving the TC without oil at start up it will get worse and start bucking and locking up before it burns out. My wife always starts the CRD like she did her VW diesel, start engine, put seat belt on and check mirror for makeup and hairdo, then put in gear. So that help save our tranny.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:05 am

Quote:

My wife always starts the CRD like she did her VW diesel, start engine, put seat belt on and check mirror for makeup and hairdo, then put in gear.

Yea.........so! :roll:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:49 am

Cowcatcher wrote:

Quote:

My wife always starts the CRD like she did her VW diesel, start engine, put seat belt on and check mirror for makeup and hairdo, then put in gear.

Yea.........so! :roll:

Well it allowed the tranny to get some fluid pumped up as well as engine oil and gives engine a moment to settle in and start firing proper. Ok, ok, it just a woman thing with the make-up and hair and nothing to do with anything I tried to teach her. :wink:

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:38 pm

Cowcatcher,

I don't know how hard the tranny filter is to change - I haven't done it yet. Maybe next week when I'm off... As far as confronting your dealer with the oil you found, I don't know. It depends to some extent on your personality. I am more skilled technically than socially. I have a real low tolerance for B.S. - especially when it comes to a vehicle that costs $$$. I would probably manage to make the situation ugly in a hurry. I don't mean violence and blue lights ugly, but never go back to that dealer ugly. To me, the dealer statement about not seeing CRDs that are sucking oil can only come from dishonesty or incompetence. I have no patience for either. Then again, the guy may have just been talking out of his a##, and the guy in the back pulling wrenches might be one of best around. Who knows? As I said before I would like to hear the response somebody would get if they asked about the oil in the intercooler without any other problems present. A service ticket with a statement about oil in the intake being normal could be valuable later. At 2100 miles I changed my system to open vent while I wait to see the Old Navy Rig. It was easy and inexpensive to do.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:36 pm

Matt,

I am a salesman building a business that stumbled along at 8>12% growth or less since 1987 to one that is now growing at over 40%. Before doing this I did sales to the Federal Government and had 85% share of market. While doing both of these I was elected to a non-partisan political office for four consecutive terms and when elected the first time won 60% to 40% against the incumbent. Why do you suppose I spent so much time getting to know the SR and his Rubicon while the guy with the wrench was in the back room. I think I can handle that part of it and if that doesn't work I know lots of folks in the state capitol that have connections in the Attorney General's department of consumer affairs. First you kiss them and then you kick them but only if you need to.

The CRD has been out for just a little over a year. If I had not known about the intake issue from here I might not have found out about it for 50K miles. My dealer is not a large volume dealer, perhaps they have only sold 10-15 CRD's. If DC has not had a TSB on the problem and users had not found it why would my SR or SM know. They didn't know about the CRD going away. They also only sell and service Jeep so their universe is a little narrower. They did tell me straight up about the EGR and even if the mechanic has seen the oil issue perhaps he didn’t think anything of it and never told management. That doesn't mean the dealer is incapable or dumb only under educated.

The only problem I have had with the Jeep they fixed no questions asked. When I go in to see them next I will ask them again if there is a Jeep CRD problem with pulling oil. If they tell me no then I will ask them if it was pulling oil if that would be a good thing or a bad thing. I am sure they will say it is a bad thing. Next I will pop the hood, pull out my nut driver and pull the hose in front of them. Then I will judge them based on their response.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:22 pm

Sounds like a good plan. Keep us posted. Others have had battles about the damage caused by the oil, but I don't know of anyone who has taken their oily intake system to the dealer and said "you need to fix this." It will put them in a bad spot - they can't fix it without offending the law or DC. The only thing they could really do is turn a blind eye and not penalize you if you try to fix it. I agree that the dealer could simply be "under educated" but it is bass ackwards if the customer has to educate the dealer about their product. I know, the world is often bass ackwards.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:57 pm

I found out some time back that the internet was filled with information, some good and a lot bad. This is a good site but there are tens of thousands of CRD users out there all over the world and we are but a hand full here. It is easy to assume that what is known here should be known by all but I have been a CRD owner since November and started investigating them well before that. I only got here a week or so ago and never discovered these issues before from the other sites I visited or the articles I read. Why should we expect a lot greater knowledge from our scattered dealers and their employees then from all of the jeep CRD owners, especially when the CRD is just a footnote to there overall inventory. I will give them some slack until they prove that I should not. :wink:

The international market has had the CRD for a lot longer. Is this a domestic issue related to emmissions or does it affect all of them? I have seen no negative comments from our European or other CRD owners that I recall.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:09 pm

I am sorry I let this topic wander off course. It was about the 006 TSB. I had that done two days ago. The last time I set my EVIC was just after a fill up a little over 400 miles ago starting a 150 mile round out and back road trip on 2 lane well maintained 60 mph highway most of the way in rollong hills. I got 25 MPG for the trip. Over the weekend I decided to roll around the mud in my pasture a little which dropped the average down to 20 MPG. The rest of my mileage has been to and from work about 30 miles round trip daily with 20 at 55-60 MPH and 10 city miles at 30-35 MPH. I was getting an average of around 19-21 on that daily drive and since the flash it has popped up to 22.5. Of course there are tons of variables like if finally got hot today, bit I think over the long haul the flash will add about 10% or more to my mileage and it shfts much smoother.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:11 pm

Some boys down under blocked their intercoolers bad enough to blow the inlet hose from excess pressure from the turbo - or so the story goes. I can't verify it. Seems like the wastegate should have dumped the excess pressure to me. I don't really know how much is different on the U.S. versus european. Anybody?

P.S. I wouldn't worry too much about wandering. I don't think any of these threads stay true to course for long. Good info on the trans flash.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:06 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

Some boys down under blocked their intercoolers bad enough to blow the inlet hose from excess pressure from the turbo - or so the story goes. I can't verify it. Seems like the wastegate should have dumped the excess pressure to me. I don't really know how much is different on the U.S. versus european. Anybody?

P.S. I wouldn't worry too much about wandering. I don't think any of these threads stay true to course for long. Good info on the trans flash.

Our CRD has a VGT turbo and does not have a waste gate, don't know about down under. The InterCooler should never clog up, except maybe externally from bugs. The worst that could happen but has never happened on the VW's (same problem) is a possible oil fed runaway from the excess oil that collects in intercooler. Usually in the VW's all that oil was easly drained simply by pulling lower hose every 40,000 to 60,000 miles and it would be about 6 to 8 ozs is all. However our IC is at the top of the radiator and most likely is always draining back down to either turbo or EGR side. To be honest I haven't looked to see which is lower, but I think the EGR side is and why their is so much oil soaking of the EGR compaired to a VW TDI.

I hope to be seeing a test CCV filter from the mfg out in CA before much longer, as all is a go for test model. Just waiting our turn in the mfg process.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:18 am

Old Navy,

Trying to understand your theory on the loose oil getting to the EGR valve. Are you thinking that oil that has made it through the intercooler and to the anti-shudder valve could be back-draining through the EGR tube to the EGR valve by gravity when the engine is off? Judging from photos of this plumbing, I think that is a very real possibility.

I would like to see the inside of a used EGR valve to see if the deposits are sticky/oily or it packs and hardends into a lump of charcoal. We have lost a few motors at work to sucking carbon lumps or a VGT blade through the EGR, floatiing a valve.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:53 am

RFCRD wrote:

Old Navy,

Trying to understand your theory on the loose oil getting to the EGR valve. Are you thinking that oil that has made it through the intercooler and to the anti-shudder valve could be back-draining through the EGR tube to the EGR valve by gravity when the engine is off? Judging from photos of this plumbing, I think that is a very real possibility.

Yes, It seems to me a real possibility. Will look into it more later this weekend if the old back lets me, but the configeration of intercooler leaves me wondering how oil ever gets up and over to otherside of engine into EGR. I would say they almost designed it so as to have the oil run back into turbo when engine is shut down. But it appears the intercooler hoses are top entry with no way to drain oil out of the cooler like on the VW's. If that is true then I guess over a long enough time the oil could dry out slowly blocking IC, but I would think soot would never get to the intercooler to gel it up and harden at some point.

I would like to see the inside of a used EGR valve to see if the deposits are sticky/oily or it packs and hardends into a lump of charcoal. We have L.O.S.T. a few motors at work to sucking carbon lumps or a VGT blade through the EGR, floatiing a valve.

On VW's I have seen a few rough looking VNT blades, even one with chunks missing (at 300k plus it still worked and provided all boost required by engine mgt system and was reinstalled and is still running) from blades, but never a turbo or engine failure from the soot or oil or a combo of both or from a piece of a blade. But that is not to say it hasn't happened, it probably has. It seems on the VW's it just clogs the intake untill engine performance is so bad a CEL is eventually lit, but sometime's the engine just stops running. Then a good intake cleaning fixes everything and EGR valves are not normally damaged and needing replaced just cleaned. However a lot VW dealers replaced them instead of cleaning them and the dealer made more money and tech was done sooner.

New TSB 18-009-06 All 2005 CRD's

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