New TSB 18-009-06 All 2005 CRD's

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:37 am

This intercooler looks more of a trap than what I have seen on the VW. I have a weird feeling that without a CCV filter, adding an oil drain to the bottom of the intercooler would eventually be needed. Even if it's just a tapped hole with a bolt & gasket.

As for the carbon related failures, the stop & go urban transit use is also a factor. All the turbos were once rebuilt with stainless steel VGT blades which were less likely to coke or come apart. A common failure is still to have the VGT blades "stick" and the turbo won't spool. Get nothing but coal black smoke and 5 mph top speed, those come home in on a hook (several/day). Top end failure are now the in thing due to abrasive damage from the recirculated soot. As one of our mechanics told me "might as well run without an air filter." The last batch came with Caterpillar engines, no EGR's but have particulate traps. Those will throw a CEL from plugged traps if left idling more than a few minutes. And that's on ULSD. Just can't find a way to win at this game.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:46 am

RFCRD wrote:

This intercooler looks more of a trap than what I have seen on the VW. I have a weird feeling that without a CCV filter, adding an oil drain to the bottom of the intercooler would eventually be needed. Even if it's just a tapped hole with a bolt & gasket.

As for the carbon related failures, the stop & go urban transit use is also a factor. All the turbos were once rebuilt with stainless steel VGT blades which were less likely to coke or come apart. A common failure is still to have the VGT blades "stick" and the turbo won't spool. Get nothing but coal black smoke and 5 mph top speed, those come home in on a hook (several/day). Top end failure are now the in thing due to abrasive damage from the recirculated soot. As one of our mechanics told me "might as well run without an air filter." The last batch came with Caterpillar engines, no EGR's but have particulate traps. Those will throw a CEL from plugged traps if left idling more than a few minutes. And that's on ULSD. Just can't find a way to win at this game.

What engines are these you are talking about, DD & Cat V8's? Just wondering is all.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:27 am

These are Detroit Diesel Series 50 "clean diesels." Set up with EGR, VGT, and open CV (all the oil is passed from inside the motor). 2002 to 2004 model years. This set-up is hauntingly close to the CRD in design except the EGR is integral mounted close to the turbo. My friends 2006 Prevost has a Series 60 EGR with this same design. I have seen CRD engine photos with this same set-up (not ours).

I should add the I don't mean to alarm anyone as this is an extreme case. I have written in another thread about the importance of filtering CCV oil. This is the path you are on if you choose to listen to the DC "oil is normal" line of BS.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:23 am

RFCRD wrote:

These are Detroit Diesel Series 50 "clean diesels." Set up with EGR, VGT, and open CV (all the oil is passed from inside the motor). 2002 to 2004 model years. This set-up is hauntingly close to the CRD in design except the EGR is integral mounted close to the turbo. My friends 2006 Prevost has a Series 60 EGR with this same design. I have seen CRD engine photos with this same set-up (not ours).

I should add the I don't mean to alarm anyone as this is an extreme case. I have written in another thread about the importance of filtering CCV oil. This is the path you are on if you choose to listen to the DC "oil is normal" line of BS.

Sounds like VW's line till they lost their arbitration or court case (don't remember which), then they had to do a free intake cleaning at least once at up to 100k miles I believe was the limit, but it could have been much less.

The CCV filter I had on my wife's Jetta till I sold it had prevented it from cloging up, it still had a light coating of soot but only maybe 1/16 inch thick. It was all powder like and not the goop that would have been in there without the oil seperator I came up with. funny thing is none of the VW's are having any long term effects from the EGR soot as long as oil is kept from intake system. Saw one car with 250k miles and they had used the elephant mod and we pulled turbo and intake here in the garage. The turbo had a lot of sandblast damage and chuncks gone, but vanes were working fine and once accuaiting rod cleaned of rust and road grime the the turbo worked fine. The intake was cleaned of soot build up near a narrow right angle turn in the intake and all was reinstalled and the car had full boost and run great, although he said he was going to save the $$ for new turbo install later.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:52 pm

Forgot to mention one other common VGT failure issue. Soot + oil + heat = charcoal. This would bake on and build up on the inside of the turbo housing. Eventually a chunk would suck loose and rattle around inside the turbo until it scattered the vanes. Just when you think you have seen it all, got new one today. I had just walked in the door, the first call of the afternoon was an engine fire on one of these motor. Turned out to be an exhaust fire from an oily turbo. Had quite a chimney fire going by the time the FD got there.

I have a feeling this is the main reason DC wants us to use synthetic oil. Being more stable at high temps, it tends pass straight through the engine and into the exhaust and it's less likely turn into sooty tar inside the turbo.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:08 pm

Back on the subject of TSB 18-009-06.

It's now day 4 (5 if you count their screw-up), mine it still at the dealer. They called yesterday to tell me they have the replacement TCM and would get it installed and flashed today. Yet to hear from them.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I mentioned that on mine, the engine noise level is noticeably reduced

I just returned from having TSB 18-009-06 done, and I noticed the same thing - engine noise is much lower, also better acceleration off the line, and much smoother. The transmission had recentely started a slight jerking, but it's gone now. Much, much smoother shifting and the engine feels a lot smoother at the same time. It definately feels like a different engine. It also took an hour and a half to download and perform both flashes. Well worth the time.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:43 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Series 50 engines just rebadged International DT-466E's?? I've worked on both and I could swear they are the same.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:31 pm

onthehunt wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Series 50 engines just rebadged International DT-466E's?? I've worked on both and I could swear they are the same.

Not to my knowledge, but I haven't worked on the DT-466E to know. I do know it's shortened block I-4 cylinder (8.5 Liter) version of the I-6 Series 60 (12.7 Liter). My understanding is it's a DDA original, also no longer available for some reason. It was a popular urban transit bus motor going back to the mid '90's and sometimes used as retrofit replacements for a 6V92 or 8V92 in older OTR buses because it would fit in the same engine space.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:01 am

I must be thinking of some other engine from DD. DT-466's are I-6's.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:55 pm

I got my CRD back from the dealer yesterday. I still have my doubts that they did this update. The service write-up stated "customer complained of torque converter rattle." That's simply not true, told them to do 18-009-06. They found a communications link problem installed a new TCM and billed DC for 1.6 hrs labor. The update sticker on the hood marked as 18-018-05, same as when I took it back. They insist it's done with the latest software.

As for the results, I hear a much more distinct diesel clatter as if the timing has been advanced. The shifting is harsh, especially when cold. I actually can feel a thump when the lock-up clutch engages at highway speeds. Didn't have a problem with shift smoothness before this. Just not happy with the results.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:19 pm

RFCRD wrote:

I got my CRD back from the dealer yesterday. I still have my doubts that they did this update. The service write-up stated "customer complained of torque converter rattle." That's simply not true, told them to do 18-009-06. They found a communications link problem installed a new TCM and billed DC for 1.6 hrs labor. The update sticker on the hood marked as 18-018-05, same as when I took it back. They insist it's done with the latest software.

As for the results, I hear a much more distinct diesel clatter as if the timing has been advanced. The shifting is harsh, especially when cold. I actually can feel a thump when the lock-up clutch engages at highway speeds. Didn't have a problem with shift smoothness before this. Just not happy with the results.

Man I would be finding a different dealer pronto, complaining to D/C and in general raising hell.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:50 am

oldnavy wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

I got my CRD back from the dealer yesterday. I still have my doubts that they did this update. The service write-up stated "customer complained of torque converter rattle." That's simply not true, told them to do 18-009-06. They found a communications link problem installed a new TCM and billed DC for 1.6 hrs labor. The update sticker on the hood marked as 18-018-05, same as when I took it back. They insist it's done with the latest software.

As for the results, I hear a much more distinct diesel clatter as if the timing has been advanced. The shifting is harsh, especially when cold. I actually can feel a thump when the lock-up clutch engages at highway speeds. Didn't have a problem with shift smoothness before this. Just not happy with the results.

Man I would be finding a different dealer pronto, complaining to D/C and in general raising hell.

Just now getting started with the hell raising. When I picked it up yesterday was running late and needed to leave for work. Talking to the Service Writers or techs is worthless at this place. Just refuse to get into an argument with them. This place is anal about protecting their "5 Star" service rating. Their customer service follow-up people always call after a visit, will start with them. Their Service Manager will call back following a negative review. I've talked with him before and he is more than aware of the issues with the CRD and specifically with this transmission coming apart. Working toward getting the filter TSB's done, which I believe is the root cause of the trans issues. He wouldn't take action on the trans filter TSB's until it showed symptoms, unfortunately that's too late. I've seen this type of rough shifting and banging with big Allisons, it's caused by oil starvation from plugged filters (every time). If DC were smart about this, they would require a trans service with the first or second engine oil change. Most customers would pay for this without questioning it and most of this nonsense would go away at no cost to DC.

The kicker with this whole TSB situation is I shouldn't have to be using the internet for research and calling the dealer insisting on these TSB's. Jeep should be calling me and demanding my vehicle be returned to the dealer for PM service. It's the cheapest thing for DC to do. Too bad Jeep is stuck on stupid.

Wilmo · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:41 am

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

I mentioned that on mine, the engine noise level is noticeably reduced

I just returned from having TSB 18-009-06 done, and I noticed the same thing - engine noise is much lower, also better acceleration off the line, and much smoother. The transmission had recentely started a slight jerking, but it's gone now. Much, much smoother shifting and the engine feels a lot smoother at the same time. It definately feels like a different engine. It also took an hour and a half to download and perform both flashes. Well worth the time.

Had mine done today here in Australia, and I agree with everything above. Makes it a much better drive.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:01 am

Liked your pictures, looked like the dog was ready for some fun. Thought about retiring to down under few years ago, but you all drive on wrong side of the road still and I figured I was too old to be taught new tricks.

Wilmo · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:04 am

oldnavy wrote:

Liked your pictures, looked like the dog was ready for some fun. Thought about retiring to down under few years ago, but you all drive on wrong side of the road still and I figured I was too old to be taught new tricks.

Not sure they would have let you in then anyway! :lol:

Yep, the dog was having fun - a big smile on his face.....his name is Jay.....for J eep

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:30 am

Wilmo wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

Liked your pictures, looked like the dog was ready for some fun. Thought about retiring to down under few years ago, but you all drive on wrong side of the road still and I figured I was too old to be taught new tricks.

Not sure they would have let you in then anyway! :lol:

Yep, the dog was having fun - a big smile on his face.....his name is Jay.....for J eep

Some dogs and cats just seem to have been born for the ride. Our cat loves to ride in the Magnum, but is not crazy about riding in the Jeep.

BLake · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:25 pm

Had the update done Tuesday. I put 200 miles on it since. Mileage jumped from 19+- to 26 :shock:

I was really unhappy with my MPG but this seems to have done wonders for that. I can feel the gears shifting now, never could before. It could be summer fuel is finally here but I don't think that would get me +7MPG.

I also told the Service writer that I've have heard some rattling from under the car on occasion. Hope I don't have the bad filter as noted in the other TSB. At least it is documented.

The dealer was much better to work with this time. My complaint from last time must have gotten to the right places. Maybe he has been reading up on these fine machines here and figured out that CRD owners know their rides and know the common problems with them.

MOSFET · **Joined:** Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:40 pm **Posts:** 295

BLake wrote:

Had the update done Tuesday. I put 200 miles on it since. Mileage jumped from 19+- to 26 :shock:

I was really unhappy with my MPG but this seems to have done wonders for that. I can feel the gears shifting now, never could before. It could be summer fuel is finally here but I don't think that would get me +7MPG.

I also noticed a jump, but mine went from 24mpg to 27mpg. My trip computer is now reading 28.8 over 150 miles.

Guest · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:01 am

MOSFET wrote:

BLake wrote:

Had the update done Tuesday. I put 200 miles on it since. Mileage jumped from 19+- to 26 :shock:

I was really unhappy with my MPG but this seems to have done wonders for that. I can feel the gears shifting now, never could before. It could be summer fuel is finally here but I don't think that would get me +7MPG.

I also noticed a jump, but mine went from 24mpg to 27mpg. My trip computer is now reading 28.8 over 150 miles.

Mine has jumped from about 19mpg to 24 mpg just in the past two weeks. However, FlyingJ truckstop told me they finally switched back to summer blend of diesel. I suspect this is the reason for my return back to my original mileage from last year...

New TSB 18-009-06 All 2005 CRD's

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