Cost for head gasket repair?

j_humph · **Posted:** Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:56 am

Well, it looks like I have a combustion leak.

I have been losing just a very small amount of coolant for several months now. I initially tried to add the UV dye to see if was leaking somewhere-which it isn't.
Recently I definitely notice a coolant smell from the exhaust.
I get a slight puff of white smoke when I start up in the morning, but not after it is running.
As you can see in the image, I am getting bubbles now coming up through he coolant tank, and the test fluid changed from blue to green in not too much time-indicating CO2 presence in the coolant system.
I have never overheated since I have had the Libby. It is now at 126K miles, I bought it with about 78K. I had the timing belt, waterpump replaced right at the 100K. Needless to say-dealing with the local stealership that did this job -
West Hills Chrysler Jeep Dodge in Bremerton, Washington was a shtty experience. I won't go into all that now, but when dealing with these big operations-always look closely at the invoice. They tried to charge me for a lot of things that they didn't do. :banghead:

Big question: how much should I expect to pay to have the head gasket replaced?
Of course that is assuming it is just the HG that needs to be fixed, not a cracked or warped head.
If it is a warped head, I read in a previous post that a slight warpage could be machined flat again. What would be the maximum out- of-flatness that could be machined flat? I read in that previous post that someone was being told that .005" required a new head. I am in agreement with one of the replies-that .005" is nothing, and in my opinion- the dealer or mechanic that was pushing for a new head should be flogged-publicly.

I also read somewhere on this forum that a cracked block is a very low possibility. Is that true? if is is a cracked block, what is the prognosis then? completely scrap the engine and find a replacement?

With the HG replaced, how long can I expect it to last before it fails again? another 100K miles? How far has anyone gone with these VM Motori engines?

Final question- when I go in for the work to be done, are there any other worthwhile iems that should be replaced/ repaired while we are in there? I understand ARP studs are a good was to go. I already had the TB and water pump replaced just 25K miles ago.

Thanks for any input.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:47 am

The cost without TB parts - 1800 - 2200.

Good luck, I know about what you're going through and feel your pain, since I went through the same thing twice. The second time 3 months after the first repair. Yes the leak returned.

My advice is to use a new head, I didn't. Make sure that all the air is out of it.

j_humph · **Posted:** Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:51 pm

Thanks Racetracer,
Is that 1800-2200 estimate including a new head? Or is it just assuming that the hg only needs to be replaced?

Thanks

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:54 pm

I can tell you from personal experience that ARP studs are strong enough to crush the AL head in the CRD. I have been told by others, to whose opinions I give significant weight, that in the VW D16/D20/D24 series CI block AL head engines that the ARP studs will flatten a significantly warped head, but *I* have not confirmed this, nor do I know whether this holds for the CRD.

I have experienced significant difference in head bolt resistance when removing installed TTY bolts when changing to studs.

I would not be surprised if the TTY bolts used in the CRD showed enough variation in clamping force in some engines to allow HG leaks to start and the head to become warped.

If I were going to go this route, I probably would start with ARP studs, and see whether the added clamping force thereof could solve the problem. If not then replace the HG/ head as needed.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:09 pm

That would be my plan as well, especially if you haven't ever run hot / overheated and since the leak indicated by your gas test is so small. The TTY bolts are crap to say the least, and it doesn't stretch the bounds of reason to question whether they would have weakened their grip over time. Manufacturing quality tolerances are a humorous concept at best for these, where the ARP studs are beyond compare for quality.

Would you trust your engine's compression to the lowest (probably Chinese) bidder... Or a USA manufacturer of highest regard?

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:53 pm

j_humph wrote:

Thanks Racetracer,
Is that 1800-2200 estimate including a new head? Or is it just assuming that the hg only needs to be replaced?

Thanks

When I went through this ordeal, the dealer was selling the new head for $825.00, the HG with the TTY bolts was $165.00 and the balance was for labor.

I would think that if your head gasket has already failed, just replacing the TTY bolts with new ARP studs wouldn't seal the leak.

My reason for saying this is because my head gasket was very rusty when removed. The rust was mostly visible around where the coolant was escaping and also the aluminum cylinder head was impregnated with bits of broken rusty particles from the metal gasket that couldn't be removed without machining.

I just don't see how this damaged area can be sealed without machining or replacing the cylinder head.

I agree with what LMW suggested in his previous posts about when an appropriate time would be to swap the TTY bolts with the ARP studs and that time is before the HG leak occurs, before the HG has a chance to rust.

But you may be able to get away with it, you never know. Can the ARP studs crush enough of the damaged area to seal the leak? Who knows.

Again good luck and keep us posted.

j_humph · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:57 am

Racetracer,
So how badly warped was your cylinder head to cause the leak to come back? I just read in the service manual that .004" is the max allowed warpage.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:32 am

Can the head bolts/studs be replaced without removing anything but the valve cover, or do the cams, etc. have to come out? I agree that it is unlikely that the headgasket is likely to seal now with just more clamping pressure, but as long as the you do not overtorque, what is the harm in trying?

What step and final torque values have people settled on for ARP studs on the VMM 2.8 CRD? Do you use the factory tightening sequence?

DOC

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:54 am

j_humph wrote:

Racetracer,
So how badly warped was your cylinder head to cause the leak to come back? I just read in the service manual that .004" is the max allowed warpage.

The used replacemnet cylinder head that I procured for my previous CRD was determined to be flat by the machine shop. Hence the reason why we used it

Diesel mecahnics can chime in on this please, but my diesel mechanic says that once a head gasket fails on a diesel engine, the aluminum head and gasket should be replaced don't take any chances. I didn't heed his warning.

Although he had heard about the ARP studs / bolts, he has never used them and will not commennt on them. If I had known about them back then, I might have directed him to install them instead of the TTY bolts.

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:09 am

DOC4444 wrote:

Can the head bolts/studs be replaced without removing anything but the valve cover, or do the cams, etc. have to come out? I agree that it is unlikely that the headgasket is likely to seal now with just more clamping pressure, but as long as the you do not overtorque, what is the harm in trying?

What step and final torque values have people settled on for ARP studs on the VMM 2.8 CRD? Do you use the factory tightening sequence?

DOC

LMW knows more about that and he will have to chime in.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:36 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

What step and final torque values have people settled on for ARP studs on the VMM 2.8 CRD? Do you use the factory tightening sequence?

DOC

Look at page 5 of the ARP stud thread for more information, but I would not torque the middle studs past 130 FP, and the edges I would not go past 125. It may well be that less torque is adequate, but I have said what I will do. I went to 140 all around and this compressed the glow plug holes and one lifter hole slightly, and is more compression than the head needs as it causes yielding of the head. If the head yields at this compression, then there is no point in going further, as we know that operation does not cause yielding.

This is yet another reason that I *really* do not like the 'TTY' factory bolts, as they are certainly not being torqued to the yield point, and they certainly ARE deforming the head in the installation process, and they certainly exhibit significant variation on removal torque.

I should say that the press of other events has prevented me from running this engine yet to actually confirm that this works, but I have no doubt that it will. I intend to wrap up this project by Christmas, so will have more to report then.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:05 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

DOC4444 wrote:

I went to 140 all around and this compressed the glow plug holes and one lifter hole slightly, and is more compression than the head needs as it causes yielding of the head. If the head yields at this compression, then there is no point in going further, as we know that operation does not cause yielding.

You actually compressed the head itself? Good god. :shock:

Considering that I put down over 200 lb-ft against one of those TTY bolts without it reaching a yield point... Those bolts in this application are NOT IN ANY WAY 'TTY' and certainly a lousy choice. I realize that the much finer threads of the ARP nut / stud interface apply much better torque than the wide TTY threads in the bottom of the hole, but do you think that the same 140 lb-ft on a TTY would also result in crushing the head? I'm genuinely curious about this, because I don't fully understand their choice of such fine threading for the nut, other than possibly a smoother ramp-up in clamping force as the torque is applied. Wouldn't 100fp at coarse thread be the same as 100fp fine threaded?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:56 pm

Well, I had local yielding where the factory bolts caused the ridge, and the ARP washers crushed that ridge flat, and the Aluminum had to go somewhere. I think that the hole that would not take the tap was caused by an overtorqued TTY bolt, and after I torqued the edge ones to 140 I had a little trouble getting the stud out, where the hole had slightly reduced in diameter at the top, so yes, the ARP 220 kip studs will crush the head before they yield. Is that enough to flatten a warped head? Do not know for sure, but I would think so, at least a minor warpage.

I don't have a new HG to look at but it appears that the old ones with your buggy, Geordi, are steel laminates, and you might get a seal. OTOH, you might not, and it is a PITA to take things down to the point of getting the valve cover/ camshafts/ manifold ( I am not sure quite what to call that multifunction piece....) off, and not much more to get the head off, so it would probably be more efficient of your time to just replace the HG. If you do, I would suggest the old TDI method of torqueing the studs in the 2006 FSM sequence to about 110 FP three times, in three stages, 50, 80 and 110. That is 9 trips around the head, plus another 4 to go to final torque, but I would hope that this would adequately compress the HG into final shape.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:49 pm

Yea, getting to that gasket isn't one of the more fun things I've ever done. Both of those gaskets (to me anyway) looked about the same quality, and neither had ever leaked coolant etc... They are laminated steel, and one of them should look a lot better, as it only has had 5 minutes at its duty station, so I would feel perfectly comfortable putting it back in service in another vehicle. Ditto for the bolts (If studs weren't in the cards) as it now becomes apparent that they are somewhat overmatched for the job they have been given... But I also suspect that the FSM's stock torquing procedure isn't up to scratch. Putting 100 fp (or whatever) and then x number of degrees, plus another x number of degrees... Inadequate. Crank the buggers down like you said... I'd be comfortable running with those numbers, sure.

j_humph · **Posted:** Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:16 am

So can someone post the ARP part numbers or kit that goes with our VMM428 engine?

Are they studs or bolts? Are they off the shelf components, or custom? If they are off the shelf, ballpark, how much doe they cost?

Thanks

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:15 am

j_humph wrote:

So can someone post the ARP part numbers or kit that goes with our VMM428 engine?

Are they studs or bolts? Are they off the shelf components, or custom? If they are off the shelf, ballpark, how much doe they cost?

Thanks

I believe that the part numbers are somewhere within this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=65524

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:28 pm

j_humph wrote:

So can someone post the ARP part numbers or kit that goes with our VMM428 engine?

Are they studs or bolts? Are they off the shelf components, or custom? If they are off the shelf, ballpark, how much doe they cost?

Thanks

I bought mine as individual components direct from ARP and spent about $400. If you were to get two 10 stud kits you can get them for around $300 for 20 studs. Then you will have two extras.

j_humph · **Posted:** Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:03 am

LMW,
So what are your impressions withe ARP components? Did you go with the studs or bolts? What did you torque them to? One at a time or all with a head gasket replacement?

Thanks

Cost for head gasket repair?

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