Cold weather starts at high altitude

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:31 pm

Dennis MacGyver wrote:

Cycle the glow plugs about 3 times before attempting to crank. A shot of either might help too.

DO NOT EVER use ether in these engines. Same goes for TDI's, or the older VW diesels. It WILL break piston rings, pistons, bend rods, break glow plugs, hydrolock, and/or a whole mess of other stuff. Ether is OK in some diesel applications, but not all. Ours is one that should not see ether. Bad stuff can happen. I have seen firsthand what starting fluid does to the VW diesels, and it ain't good. My :2cents:

bigmaho · **Posted:** Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:39 pm

Drewd wrote:

jinstall wrote:

Personally I tell people to NOT use ether as most do not use it properly and use way too much.

yeah, its easy to get carried away with ether as I found out starting a 5.4L Triton 2 months ago and burned my eyebrows and a bit of my hair when it backfired ;-)

ouch. Guess I'll pass on that one. The additive seems to be doing the trick (plus it's a touch warmer, single digits at night instead of minus 10)

Dennis MacGyver · **Posted:** Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:40 pm

bigmaho wrote:

Drewd wrote:

jinstall wrote:

Personally I tell people to NOT use ether as most do not use it properly and use way too much.

yeah, its easy to get carried away with ether as I found out starting a 5.4L Triton 2 months ago and burned my eyebrows and a bit of my hair when it backfired ;-)

ouch. Guess I'll pass on that one. The additive seems to be doing the trick (plus it's a touch warmer, single digits at night instead of minus 10)

Diesels CAN'T backfire !!

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:53 pm

Or you can stay with the factory tune, or some other, that doesn't eff with cold weather starting.

DUHHHH.

84K miles, "some other" tune, SEGR, same set of ceramic GP's that were installed at 12K miles, Sears Platinum battery - starts first time every time.

Cycling the key is something I expect to have to do on my ancient 87 300D - not on my Jeep.

bigmaho · **Posted:** Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:09 am

Does that include -15 at 8000'? My crd, 145000, is a trooper, except except in extreme cold starts over 7500'.
Turns out 10oz of cold weather diesel additive did the trick.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:20 am

Ether won't harm the engine as long as it is used correctly as a short burst and not at temps above 20F or so. If the temp is below zero, you may need a little more. As long as you are using it at cold temps, the volatility is greatly reduced and enters the engine as a course atomization or even sticks mostly to the intake walls so you don't get dangerous pressure spikes or a run away engine like happens above freezing when the ether enters the cylinder as a very explosive gas (auto ignition temperature is only 360F).

ColoradoCRD · **Joined:** Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:25 am **Posts:** 60

bigmaho wrote:

Hi Guys,
When I'm home, near sea level, the CRD is a little cranky starting in the morning when the temps have been in the teens and below, but it usually starts on the first try and if I give it a couple of minutes to warm up it's ok. BUT, I travel to Taos, NM often. Altitude at my place is 7300'. If it's been cold at night (it's often sub-zero F) it's very tough to start. It will crank and cough but usually die when I let go of the key. Black smoke pours out the pipe. I don't have access to power where I park, so I can't plug in the block heater. After 5 or 6 tries it will finally kick over and stay running when I let the key go. When I'm at lower altitudes (ie, Albuquerque, 5000') it starts ok even if it's just as cold.
Any ideas? My rig is a 2006 CRD, GDE tune, 140,000 miles (yes, new timing belt), Euro TC, I'm into this thing for the long haul.
Thanks and Happy New Year,
Billy

I also live at 7,300 feet but in Colorado, so I have a lot of cold temp starting experience since I bought my 05 new. I usually use the block heater but there are many times when I forget or unavailable.

Your description failed to mention whether you have changed glow plugs. Assuming you have not changed them, then that seems to be the obvious fix. Mine started to go bad about 80k and began showing a code for plug failure. I replaced them at 100k, and the new glow plugs perform better than when the car was new. Until I replaced them it was sometimes impossible to start unless I used the block heater.

fyi, my all time lowest temp start without the block heater was with the original plugs at -11F. Could it have started at colder temps? I don't know because I never tried. One thing that I experience as you describe is that when it is really cold and have a difficult start, the engine billows dense black smoke, and then suddenly calms down. I assume that the engine is receiving extremely over rich fuel delivery, and then suddenly goes to normal.

You also didn't mention if you use anti gelling additives. Your problems could be caused by gelling, which if it is true is easily fixed. I use white Powerservice.

Also, I believe that cold starting problems are greatest early in the cold season. It takes a while to get the winter diesel blend through the fuel distribution system.

naturist · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:54 am

Starting a cold diesel is always rough on batteries. Not only do the glow plugs take power, but the high compression makes the starter work hard. So you simply must have a high-capacity battery in good condition.

Having a warm block is also most helpful, so if you can find or rig up a way to plug it in just for a couple hours before you try to start it, do so.

bigmaho · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:34 pm

ColoradoCRD wrote:

bigmaho wrote:

Hi Guys,
When I'm home, near sea level, the CRD is a little cranky starting in the morning when the temps have been in the teens and below, but it usually starts on the first try and if I give it a couple of minutes to warm up it's ok. BUT, I travel to Taos, NM often. Altitude at my place is 7300'. If it's been cold at night (it's often sub-zero F) it's very tough to start. It will crank and cough but usually die when I let go of the key. Black smoke pours out the pipe. I don't have access to power where I park, so I can't plug in the block heater. After 5 or 6 tries it will finally kick over and stay running when I let the key go. When I'm at lower altitudes (ie, Albuquerque, 5000') it starts ok even if it's just as cold.
Any ideas? My rig is a 2006 CRD, GDE tune, 140,000 miles (yes, new timing belt), Euro TC, I'm into this thing for the long haul.
Thanks and Happy New Year,
Billy

I also live at 7,300 feet but in Colorado, so I have a lot of cold temp starting experience since I bought my 05 new. I usually use the block heater but there are many times when I forget or unavailable.

Your description failed to mention whether you have changed glow plugs. Assuming you have not changed them, then that seems to be the obvious fix. Mine started to go bad about 80k and began showing a code for plug failure. I replaced them at 100k, and the new glow plugs perform better than when the car was new. Until I replaced them it was sometimes impossible to start unless I used the block heater.

fyi, my all time lowest temp start without the block heater was with the original plugs at -11F. Could it have started at colder temps? I don't know because I never tried. One thing that I experience as you describe is that when it is really cold and have a difficult start, the engine billows dense black smoke, and then suddenly calms down. I assume that the engine is receiving extremely over rich fuel delivery, and then suddenly goes to normal.

You also didn't mention if you use anti gelling additives. Your problems could be caused by gelling, which if it is true is easily fixed. I use white Powerservice.

Also, I believe that cold starting problems are greatest early in the cold season. It takes a while to get the winter diesel blend through the fuel distribution system.

The coldest night in Taos hit -15 and I've started it colder in Minnesota, probably -22. Only time I have issues is in Taos at high altitude. My glow plugs are original. So far no code or CEL, but I might change them soon just in case. Also need to change the thermostat. The temp gauge is pretty much locked at 1/4. Used to be dead center. I'm guessing the thermostat is stuck open. Between cycling the key a few times and adding 8 oz of anti-gel juice it started up first try after my first post. The Powerservice fluid also bought me another 2-3 mpg on the trip back to NY. With a heavily loaded CRD I was averaging 26 mpg on fill ups when I added 8 oz and 23 when I didn't. Usual speed was 70-72 on cruise control.

btw, noticed a slight difference between my 2006 CRD Sport and my wife's 2006 CRD Ltd (she gets the bling one of course). The Ltd has a plastic housing covering most of the radiator leaving only the fan exposed while the Sport does not have a housing leaving most of the radiator exposed.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:50 am

Your tstat definitely needs replacement (some like the inline, some worry about the inline and towing; I'm not against the inline but went with an OEM replacement while waiting for Kap's mod) and doing so will get you maybe another 10% in mpg.

Your description of the plastic thing your Sport is missing sounds like the fan shroud as opposed to the cosmetic engine cover that goes on the top of the engine and has the yellow oil filler cap in the middle. Take a look at the first picture in Sam's NOOB guide and you can see the fan shroud right in front with raised letters saying CAUTION FAN. If you are missing the fan shroud it's probably that the PO did not put it back on (has to come off when the fan comes off) after a fan clutch replacement to timing belt job. Leaving the fan shroud off will have some impact, don't know how much, on ducting air thru the radiator and might??? somewhat reduce radiator performance. Based on that speculation I wouldn't worry about it but would recommend you not do the inline tstat mod just in case.

The fan shroud is a pain the the you know what for access to the front of the engine but a better approach than ditching it are several options in my post at viewtopic.php?f=98&t=64278&p=709322#p709322 and the associated discussion.

bigmaho · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:15 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Your tstat definitely needs replacement (some like the inline, some worry about the inline and towing; I'm not against the inline but went with an OEM replacement while waiting for Kap's mod) and doing so will get you maybe another 10% in mpg.

Your description of the plastic thing your Sport is missing sounds like the fan shroud as opposed to the cosmetic engine cover that goes on the top of the engine and has the yellow oil filler cap in the middle. Take a look at the first picture in Sam's NOOB guide and you can see the fan shroud right in front with raised letters saying CAUTION FAN. If you are missing the fan shroud it's probably that the PO did not put it back on (has to come off when the fan comes off) after a fan clutch replacement to timing belt job. Leaving the fan shroud off will have some impact, don't know how much, on ducting air thru the radiator and might??? somewhat reduce radiator performance. Based on that speculation I wouldn't worry about it but would recommend you not do the inline tstat mod just in case.

The fan shroud is a pain the the you know what for access to the front of the engine but a better approach than ditching it are several options in my post at viewtopic.php?f=98&t=64278&p=709322#p709322 and the associated discussion.

The dealer who did the timing belt replacement probably removed it and never replaced it. My main temperature issue is that the engine runs too cold, so I doubt I'll ever miss the shroud. Even when I towed a Heartland MPG travel trailer cross country this summer, the engine never much passed the 50% mark on the temp gauge. Thanks for the info though.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:31 pm

No big surprise but do install an new OEM tstat. You are running cold enough to be losing mpg. FYI the install is no big deal but the "invisible" rear lower bolt on the tstat really needs to be accessed with a 1/4" drive wobbly extension as there is a "hump" in the exhaust manifold that makes use of a 3/8" drive iffy and cross threading easy with that larger drive.

bigmaho · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:56 pm

papaindigo wrote:

No big surprise but do install an new OEM tstat. You are running cold enough to be losing mpg. FYI the install is no big deal but the "invisible" rear lower bolt on the tstat really needs to be accessed with a 1/4" drive wobbly extension as there is a "hump" in the exhaust manifold that makes use of a 3/8" drive iffy and cross threading easy with that larger drive.

Thanks for the hint!

btw, hit a bump today and my ABS and ESP lights came on and stayed on. Tried clearing codes but they're still there. Must be a connection or relay knocked loose. Fuses seem fine. I'll give it a better check tomorrow in daylight.
Best,
Billy

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

-7 deg F this morning at my 6600+ ft location and my Liberty and my wife's Grand Cherokee fired up just fine with normal glow plug cycle.

kewaal · **Posted:** Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:40 pm

I start our CRD everyday at ~5000 ft and 0-15 degree weather (sometimes -10). It used to start just fine when we first got it 2 years ago but it really sucks at starting in the cold now. The only thing I can think of is the glow plugs that I replaced. Ever since I replaced the ceramic plugs (7V) with the metallic plugs (5V) it seems to have struggled starting in the cold. I even use PowerService every fill up. I also replaced the fuel filter head which helped but this winter the CRD has really struggled starting. I have to cycle the key several times and it usually takes a good few minutes to get it started even with our new 800 cca battery. I really wish I could find some 7V ceramic plugs - at least they started better.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:24 pm

kewaal wrote:

I start our CRD everyday at ~5000 ft and 0-15 degree weather (sometimes -10). It used to start just fine when we first got it 2 years ago but it really sucks at starting in the cold now. The only thing I can think of is the glow plugs that I replaced. Ever since I replaced the ceramic plugs (7V) with the metallic plugs (5V) it seems to have struggled starting in the cold. I even use PowerService every fill up. I also replaced the fuel filter head which helped but this winter the CRD has really struggled starting. I have to cycle the key several times and it usually takes a good few minutes to get it started even with our new 800 cca battery. I really wish I could find some 7V ceramic plugs - at least they started better.

If you go back with 7 volt plugs, you will have to get the computer reflashed back to the 7 volt logic by GDE. Alternatively, if you want really great startability, Get the GDE tune with 7 volt logic but keep the 5 volt plugs (assuming they are not faulted).

Cold weather starts at high altitude

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