Input from California CRD owners - CA Emission Tests

kidjedi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:19 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Thoughts when you go:
1. make sure they understand it's a diesel. If they don't understand that it's diesel show them the diesel only fuel cap, CRD (common rail diesel) emblem; and the owner's manual. If they still don't understand demand to speak to a supervisor. Leave if they still don't understand and elevate with testing agency not test facility.
2. 05 may be ok on rollers but be advised 06 has to be treated like any gasser with electronic stability control (see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60585&p=677106&hilit=rollers+test#p677106) as 2 wheel only rollers will cause the ESP system to go nuts; throw a CEL/MIL; may cause limp mode; and in extreme cases throw the vehicle partially to fully off the rollers. I assume 4 wheel rollers will work ok. Don't know if shutting ESP off helps but remember if ESP is off and the ignition key is cycled off and back on the ESP rengages automatically and will need to be shut off again.

Apparently a tank of biodiesel before the test is a good thing.

Good luck. Sent a separate email just in case you are not on the forum right now.

Thanks for all the advice, papaindigo. I actually printed out the quoted thread to show the guy at the emissions testing place.

FWIW, we have "regular" emissions testing facilities, and then "diesel only" emissions testing facilities, so there shouldn't be any confusion in this regard.

I am worried about the ESP on my 2006 on the two tire roller (as opposed to all four). It seems like even when you turn of ESP, there is a brake function of the stability control for the vehicle that CANNOT be deactivated. The tech on the phone seemed pretty knowledgeable and let me know up front that any AWD vehicle would need to go to one of only two facilities in the ENTIRE STATE that have four wheel systems --both are very far away from my home. :furious:

He also let me know that my car WOULD be in limp mode after the test. This is where my massive concerns stem from.

I think I'm going to call them back for some more discussion on the matter.

Regarding biodiesel: unfortunately the co-op here only sells biodiesel once a month, so I won't be able to fill up with biodiesel... I've also heard that the solvents in biodiesel are REALLY bad for the rubber in Mercedes diesels (read in several very long threads on TDI forums --a couple of which specifically mentioned the Liberty CRD)?

kidjedi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:37 pm

So I just spoke with the tech at the testing center again. He gave me a lot of info., and I canceled my appt. (not because of him, but because we agreed I shouldn't be putting my Jeep on his rollers without disconnecting all the ABS sensors, and I'd really rather not do that).

He actually knew the difference bewteen the Liberty CRD 2005, 2006, and what he was calling the 2006-and-a-half (evidently the 2006.5 doesn't have a "part-time" four wheel setting on the stick and instead has a "sort of" all wheel drive that sends 25% of the power to the front wheels in 2WD?). My 2006 definitely has a stick with part time and full time 4wd in addition to 4wd lo.

So... evidently the four wheel testing dynamometer is a $125k machine, and since there are so few vehicles on the road that would use it (his estimate was maybe 10 cars at his facility per year), it's not prudent for a testing place to purchase one. Thus, the only two in the state are in Ft. Collins and waaaaay south in Denver.

It used to be that since there were none in the state, you could get an "alternate" test for your AWD (or un-turn-off-able ESP in our case) diesel (I assume this is the reports of "visual" inspections for $45), but now that there are two four-wheel dynamometers in the state, they are making people drive all the way to those locations. :furious:

FWIW, the tech told me you really should be on the highway driving the same amount of time/distance from Denver to Ft. Collins before the test anyway (to bring engine up to temp and to work the turbo).

The tech knew that even when disabling the ESP, the brakes on the 2006 (as opposed to the '05) still engage, and that the only way to prevent this is to actually physically unhook all of the ABS sensors below the vehicle. This isn't something I'm really comfortable doing myself or letting someone else mess with. Anybody ever do this?

I'm also concerned about how hard they say they HAVE to run the vehicle for testing. I am at 127k and have no idea if the timing belt has ever been changed like it should have been at 100k. I know I need to do this ASAP, but as it hasn't been done, I don't want someone revving my engine to redline for long periods of time with the chance of that belt breaking and REALLY screwing up my vehicle.

I'm going to try calling the DMV to see if there's ANY way I can get some sort of exemption.

kidjedi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:04 pm

Four tire dynamometer at Go Dodge on Arapahoe and I-25 (VERY far from my house). No appt. necessary; 8a-5:30p M-F.

The test is $100 ($80 for two wheel). ONE HUNDRED FREAKING DOLLARS.

The tech said there would be no problem with my Jeep on the two wheel machine because you can put the vehicle into 2wd. I told him about the enhance traction system that still engages the brakes even when ESP is disabled, and he said he'd never heard of such a thing (this is s Dodge dealership, mind you). I told him he'd be paying for a new Jeep for me if they wouldn't let me go on the AWD machine. Yay, I get to pay extra money to have ignorant techs possibly ruin my vehicle (which obviously runs clean just by looking at the tailpipe).

In addition to this, they drive your Jeep HARD (i.e. abuse it).

Not only that, but you must have the test done EVERY YEAR.

Gas vehicle emissions testing is $25 every two years, free if you drive by a mobile testing site.

WHAT. THE. F.

I'm tempted to drive the vehicle back to the Midwest to have it titled and licensed through my parents. :shock:

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:02 pm

kidjedi wrote:

Curious about your Aero Turbine 2525 muffler, grywlfbg. It's been a while since this post, but is it still treating you alright? I just learned about Aero Turbine mufflers tonight (researching straight through and how I might mod my stock exhaust), so funny coincidence that it's mentioned in this thread. At $125 from Amazon, that Aero Turbine 2525 muffler is actually cheaper than a Dynomax or Flowmaster.

I had it installed very soon after getting the CRD so can't really speak to before and after. I had it done on the advice of the folks here to get rid of the restriction and open it up for better breathing. It's held up great over 100k miles and almost no increase in noise. Definitely no droning.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:30 pm

kidjedi - That tech is a complete moron who has no clue how an ESP system operates which has less than zero to do with the drive mode you are in. If a vehicle of any brand has ESP or an equivalent and 4 wheels then all 4 wheels are linked to the ESP system regardless of the drive mode the vehicle has or is in 2wd, 4wd full or part time, or all wheel drive. I wouldn't bet on disconnecting the wheel sensors working either as I'd bet that will throw a CEL and, as is well known, turning ESP "off" does not fully disengage it.

My recommendation is talk to Sir Sam who is in Colorado regarding both the emissions stuff and a TB job unless you plan to do it yourself. At your mileage I'd be extremely reluctant to drive much never mind stressing your vehicle until you are positive the TB is done. Don't suppose you want to try to force the emissions station to pay for a TB and rocker job if they break the TB.

I frankly don't believe there are only 2 4 wheel facilities in the state given the dozens of vehicles with ESP on the road today. Maybe only 2 that handle diesels but even that I don't believe.

FYI as far as I know if they do put it on a 2 wheel unit and kick you into limp mode with a CEL then I believe either a short drive or 10 minutes with the battery disconnected will fix that problem. Of course that means you won't pass so why bother.

kidjedi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:06 pm

papaindigo wrote:

My recommendation is talk to Sir Sam who is in Colorado regarding both the emissions stuff and a TB job unless you plan to do it yourself. At your mileage I'd be extremely reluctant to drive much never mind stressing your vehicle until you are positive the TB is done. Don't suppose you want to try to force the emissions station to pay for a TB and rocker job if they break the TB.

This is my problem. I've already spoken with Sir Sam, who will likely be doing my TB change, but his availability is limited and I'm under certain constraints from the state regarding getting my vehicle titled in a timely fashion. It would be nice if I could have him do the service, then drive straight to the Ft. Collins testing facility since he's in Ft. Collins.

papaindigo wrote:

I frankly don't believe there are only 2 4 wheel facilities in the state given the dozens of vehicles with ESP on the road today. Maybe only 2 that handle diesels but even that I don't believe.

I'm talking just diesel, and whether you believe it or not, it is absolutely the case.

I actually spoke on the phone today with the head of the emissions program for the state. The two locations that can handle AWD diesel emissions testing (4 wheel dynamometer) are Go Dodge in south Denver, and Nelsen’s Auto Tech Center in Ft. Collins.

papaindigo wrote:

FYI as far as I know if they do put it on a 2 wheel unit and kick you into limp mode with a CEL then I believe either a short drive or 10 minutes with the battery disconnected will fix that problem. Of course that means you won't pass so why bother.

Exactly. Not to mention the potential issue with having the vehicle jump off the rollers when the brakes engage, or having them redline the vehicle three times for the "snap test" knowing my potential timing belt issues (I wish there were some way to know for sure if the TB was ever changed!).

I also just don't like the idea of having my vehicle abused EVERY YEAR for this nonsense (not to mention paying $100 every year while gassers only need pay $25 every TWO years).

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:21 am

kidjedi wrote:

Regarding biodiesel: unfortunately the co-op here only sells biodiesel once a month, so I won't be able to fill up with biodiesel... I've also heard that the solvents in biodiesel are REALLY bad for the rubber in Mercedes diesels (read in several very long threads on TDI forums --a couple of which specifically mentioned the Liberty CRD)?

We've been running B100 on our KJ since new - no issues. And I've only done 2 fuel filters in 100k miles. Not that I recommend doing that, time just gets away from me. The old MB's did have problems w/ seals and such but new vehicles all use synthetic fuel lines.

kidjedi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:51 pm

grywlfbg wrote:

kidjedi wrote:

Regarding biodiesel: unfortunately the co-op here only sells biodiesel once a month, so I won't be able to fill up with biodiesel... I've also heard that the solvents in biodiesel are REALLY bad for the rubber in Mercedes diesels (read in several very long threads on TDI forums --a couple of which specifically mentioned the Liberty CRD)?

We've been running B100 on our KJ since new - no issues. And I've only done 2 fuel filters in 100k miles. Not that I recommend doing that, time just gets away from me. The old MB's did have problems w/ seals and such but new vehicles all use synthetic fuel lines.

Thanks for your response, grywlfbg. Here is the specific quote I am referring to. This is actually directly from the Denver Biodiesel Coop's web page:

Denver Biodiesel Coop wrote:

Biodiesel is not compatible with ordinary rubber. If your fuel system has rubber fittings they can be replaced with syntetic fittings to counter this, however, most modern Diesel engines do not use rubber fittings anymore. Most pre-1994 vehicles and some later model cars (all Mercedes) have non-biodiesel compatible fuel lines, seals and o-rings. Gradually, over 6 months to a year, biodiesel will degrade these fuel lines, which will become malleable, weepy or spongy before they completely melt. Check under your hood periodically and replace any degraded fuel lines and seals with a biodiesel resistant synthetic, such as Viton or A1 grade marine fuel line.

I am curious as to what others have to say about this, as I've recently found this site (http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/BD/Colorado/Denver/) which has turned me on to a few more places (that you don't have to be a member of) to purchase Biodiesel and I'd like to give it a shot as long as it's not harming my (definitely Mercedes) engine.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:02 pm

Rixram use to work at Newport Biodiesel and ran B100 in the summer with no issues.

Sounds like the Colorado test is a pain.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

kidjedi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:10 pm

ChooChooman74 wrote:

Sounds like the Colorado test is a pain.

Indeed.

Still trying to decide if I'm going to do the $55 test on a two wheel roller with a more knowledgeable tech who will let me sit next to him during the test and talk me through everything if for nothing else than peace of mind, or if I'm going to go with a test that costs twice as much, albeit on a four wheel roller, but with people who might not know (or care) what they're doing with my vehicle (and is a forty minute drive in each direction).

CHessMaster · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:05 am

I live in northern Colorado.

If you have an '06, you MUST have the test done on a 4 wheel machine, or you [will, may, absolutely, possibly], cause problems on the vehicle.

Last year, Nelson's didn't have their machine yet, and I went down to the emissions station on/near hwy 14 in Fort Collins and got a waiver because the only other 4 wheel diesel machine was in Denver. They told me Nelson's might get one when I was there.

The Colorado test is for opacity (smoke "volume" under load essentially) and a visual for "tampering" only.

Now I guess I'll have to cough up the cash.... :roll:

kidjedi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:26 pm

Here is the response I just received from an official at the state level:

Quote:

I looked into the Electronic Stability Program (ESP) system on the Jeep Liberty a little further.

The ESP system incorporates both a Traction Control feature along with Electronic Stability Control (ESC) - also known as skid control. It is the Traction Control feature that we are concerned with.

When the ESP system is disabled, Traction Control is disabled, but not necessarily the ESC or power reduction functions. With both drive wheel's speed equal, the lateral accelerometer, steering angle sensor, and yaw rate sensor (all devices monitored for skid control) reporting normal, the ESC system is 'happy'. The system will not try to reduce power either (again, with ESP disabled).

Disabling of Traction Control systems is a regular procedure in both the gasoline and diesel emission inspection programs. We are not advocating an 'intrusive' method of disabling any system - such as disconnecting wheel sensors, pulling fuses, etc.

We do have an alternate test procedure available through our Emission Technical Center network for any vehicle which is deemed 'untestable' on our current equipment.

A search of our database shows that we have never had a CRD Liberty in for an 'untestable' evaluation.

There have been over 300 inspections performed on 2006 Jeep diesels in Colorado's emissions program.

Furthermore, there were just under 1300 2006 Jeep Liberty vehicles tested through our gasoline emissions program in 2012. These were inspected on two-wheel drive dynamometers. While I understand this is not a direct comparison to the CRD Liberty, I find no specified differences in the traction control systems between diesel and gasoline.

I cannot comment on the information you were provided, as I was not present during those discussions, nor do I know who said what. Nor do I find Internet enthusiast forums to be very reliable.

I hope that this helps to alleviate any concerns you may have.

If I listen to the vast majority of the people on these forums (actually, NO ONE has said the two wheel test is fine, and most people say even the four wheel dynamometer is bad), this guy is completely wrong, but I can't title my vehicle any other way (you MUST pass emissions testing to register/title your vehicle).

Furthermore, a tech at the nearest testing facility actually told me the ONLY way to satisfactorily disable the ESC (the braking part of the traction control system) would be to UNHOOK the ABS sensors at each wheel. He also told me that my vehicle would DEFINITELY be in "limp mode" for the drive home, and that they call to cancel your appointment if it's snowing or below 32 degrees because your vehicle will be crippled and too dangerous on slick roads (no ABS, CEL on, lowered power/acceleration, etc.) This CAN'T be good for the vehicle.

Thoughts?

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:30 pm

Move.

kidjedi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:16 pm

geordi wrote:

Move.

From my front patio, I can see mountains from way south of Golden all the way up past Estes Park. Though the emissions testing situation sucks, I'm not going anywhere. :wink:

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:04 am

Kaliforniastan has some nice views too... And I wouldn't ever want to register a vehicle there either. Sometimes it benefits you to register the vehicle somewhere else.

either that, or you pay the money and take your chances. Or... Pay the money and go in with a lawyer and a video camera to document the unneeded car abuse, and sue the state for wasting your time and resources.

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:10 pm

kidjedi wrote:

geordi wrote:

Move.

From my front patio, I can see mountains from way south of Golden all the way up past Estes Park. Though the emissions testing situation sucks, I'm not going anywhere. :wink:

I'm with Geordi here, lol, soon you'll get a tax for just looking through the window... But as long as you like it, why would you give a darn! Lol. Good luck!

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:41 pm

kidjedi wrote:

Thanks for your response, grywlfbg. Here is the specific quote I am referring to. This is actually directly from the Denver Biodiesel Coop's web page:

Denver Biodiesel Coop wrote:

Biodiesel is not compatible with ordinary rubber. If your fuel system has rubber fittings they can be replaced with syntetic fittings to counter this, however, most modern Diesel engines do not use rubber fittings anymore. Most pre-1994 vehicles and some later model cars (all Mercedes) have non-biodiesel compatible fuel lines, seals and o-rings. Gradually, over 6 months to a year, biodiesel will degrade these fuel lines, which will become malleable, weepy or spongy before they completely melt. Check under your hood periodically and replace any degraded fuel lines and seals with a biodiesel resistant synthetic, such as Viton or A1 grade marine fuel line.

I am curious as to what others have to say about this, as I've recently found this site (http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/BD/Colorado/Denver/) which has turned me on to a few more places (that you don't have to be a member of) to purchase Biodiesel and I'd like to give it a shot as long as it's not harming my (definitely Mercedes) engine.

I don't have any experience w/ a GC CRD w/ the MB motor. It's a common motor so maybe do some searches for MB 3.0 biodiesel. However, I cannot imagine ANY manufacturer in this day and age using rubber hoses instead of synthetic ones.

This brochure from MB: http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAsse ... chure5.pdf does not say anything about hose/o-ring swelling. Everything they list has to do with getting a "bad batch" of bio.

CHessMaster · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:01 pm

kidjedi wrote:

Here is the response I just received from an official at the state level:

Quote:

A search of our database shows that we have never had a CRD Liberty in for an 'untestable' evaluation.

Thoughts?

This is FALSE!

I got a waiver for mine for being 'untestable'.

DO NOT run an '06 on a 2 wheel dino!!

kidjedi · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:58 pm

I'm posting this not to start any arguments, but for those finding this thread in the future who are as "terrified" as I was after hearing all these horror stories about diesel emissions testing and needing to be on a four-wheel dynamometer. This is simply my personal experience with getting the diesel emissions test done.

It seems that all of the hubbub over the "dangers" of putting your '06 CRD on a two wheel dynamometer are WILDLY exaggerated. Perhaps they stand for the '05 model, but evidently whatever changes they made to the '06 took care of any issues with testing the vehicle on a two wheel dynamometer with the ESP disengaged.

I just had my inspection done at S&S Services off 120th in Broomfield, CO. No issues whatsoever. In fact, I did everything "wrong" just to play guinea pig. I didn't warm up the vehicle. I didn't worry about how full the tank was. I didn't use biodiesel. Etc. etc. I basically ignored all the recommendations I've found in my research over the past two months. Actually... I had cleaned out my MAP sensor and I did use a fuel additive (but that's just because I've been adding it at every fill up).

I made my appt. for a day where the weather wouldn't be bad and the temp would be over 40 degrees (their rules). At the time of testing, the ambient air temperature was right around 50 degrees, maybe just a little under.

10 minutes before the appt. I started my Jeep and drove it to the testing facility (FWIW, the tank was about half full). After hearing all the horror stories of people putting their CRD's on the two-wheel rollers, I cringed a little bit when I handed over my keys. I did make sure to tell the tech to MAKE SURE the ESP button was pushed so everything was off. He let me know he knew all about it, and said they would even unhook the ABS if it was necessary (turns out it wasn't).

Half an hour later, I got my keys back and was on my merry way. The ABS and a few other lights came on when I started the car, but they all turned off before I even had a chance to put it in drive.

The tech said the vehicle blew a little dirty, but was because I hadn't warmed up the engine (at all). Zero shift 0% opacity. 40mph was 4% opacity. 50mph was 5%. 60 mpg was 9%.

Pretty painless (other than being out the $55). Two years and I'll have to do it again.

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:54 pm

Good to hear that it was relatively painless.

When I had my 05 Jeep Liberty CRD lmt. smogged, the mechanic opened the hood, took out a manual and read it for five minutes. He ran the engine for 20 minutes while he ate lunch, came back and looked for any CELs (none), revved the engine while looking in the side mirror for black smoke (saw none) and passed my vehicle.

$50.00 and done.

I am not sure how often we have to smog it here in California, but I'll find out soon I'm sure.

Input from California CRD owners - CA Emission Tests

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