CRD rocker arm wear...more info

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:31 am

Neither will make any difference when "cold" against even a straight 40 weight oil.

The W rating is the oil viscosity when the temperature is below FREEZING. How much of that happens in August? The oils are all 40 weight right now, whether the engine is warm, cold, off, or running hot.

SFHLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:22 pm

Has anyone ever seen an MAF reading in volts as opposed to lb/min or g/s? I asked for an MAF reading from a shop for a pre-purchase inspection on a vehicle I'm looking at (long distance) and they came back with 1.68v at idle (780 rpm). In googling around, I see that this is what the ECU actually sees from the MAF sensor, but I can't figure out how to translate that into a lb/min or g/s number. I'm trying to get another number to compare with the other reading I got from the seller, which was 2.2 lb/min (see my earlier post). Anyone know how this translates?

EDIT: Also, the inspection revealed that the Air Temp Sensor was unplugged. I'm not sure why this was the case, but would this have any effect on MAF reading and/or idle speed?

EDIT 2: Keith said the numbers sounded good. Also, I confirmed that the temp sensor that was unplugged was the small sensor on the air box, not the intake air temp or ambient air temp (which explains why it had no effect on a GDE tuned car).

tigafila · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:02 am

For what it's worth, I have 150k on my '05 currently, we purchased it as a demo with just a few thousand miles on it. I don't want to sound like a commercial but I want to tell you my experience. I have used Amsoil and their extended oil change interval since day one, EHM and ORM since early on. At just over 100k I had a catastrophic glow plug failure resulting in a swallowed valve and split liner. When I tore it down I couldn't believe that there was no wear anywhere in the engine. The rod and main bearings still had brand new looking babbit on them, the cylinders still had great cross hatch in them, and the only rockers I had to replace were the ones that were destroyed when it swallowed the valve. The only things I replaced internally were the rings after light honing just because of miles, the split liner and piston, and the affected rockers. I don't believe these rocker failures are due to soot or there would be more bearing damage. I believe they are caused by lack of lubrication as the rockers are the last to receive oil. My experience made me a believer in Amsoil and this thread reinforces it. Hope this helps. And I don't work for or receive any compensation from Amsoil, I'm not even a distributor so I can get a discount.

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:46 am

Thats good info. I also believe 0w40 is a little thin for this engine. I can clearly hear the rockers ticks louder when I first start the engine over night. I used at some point mobil1 diesel truck 5w40 because at that time I couldn't find 0w40 at the local parts shop. Rocker ticks was not as loud as with 0w40. Also, European markets use 5w40 for this engine. And another important aspect, amsoil is one of the best brands in the market, both us and European.

Hexus · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:15 pm

tigafila wrote:

For what it's worth, I have 150k on my '05 currently, we purchased it as a demo with just a few thousand miles on it. I don't want to sound like a commercial but I want to tell you my experience. I have used Amsoil and their extended oil change interval since day one, EHM and ORM since early on. At just over 100k I had a catastrophic glow plug failure resulting in a swallowed valve and split liner. When I tore it down I couldn't believe that there was no wear anywhere in the engine. The rod and main bearings still had brand new looking babbit on them, the cylinders still had great cross hatch in them, and the only rockers I had to replace were the ones that were destroyed when it swallowed the valve. The only things I replaced internally were the rings after light honing just because of miles, the split liner and piston, and the affected rockers. I don't believe these rocker failures are due to soot or there would be more bearing damage. I believe they are caused by lack of lubrication as the rockers are the last to receive oil. My experience made me a believer in Amsoil and this thread reinforces it. Hope this helps. And I don't work for or receive any compensation from Amsoil, I'm not even a distributor so I can get a discount.

I disagree with you entirely. I have taken 3 of these apart now and seen first hand the wear on the rockers and lifters. I have seen the soot build up, and I have seen the frozen bearings, worn races, and indented rocker arms to prove to you that it was soot. Look at the frozen bearings in the videos I have posted.

I have cleaned out several intakes or seen them cleaned out now, enough to know that the soot build up on these is rediculous, and while part of it might, MIGHT, be the 0w40 Mobil1, I would tend to lean more towards the EGR valve, period.

If you study up on your chemistry and see the acid produced by diesel combustion, then you realize very quickly that pushing those chemicals back inside the intake is ludicrous, regardless of any "estimated" increase in efficiency or exhaust gas reduction.

:2cents:

tigafila · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:54 pm

Hexus, how were the main and rod bearings on the ones you've disassembled with bad rockers and obvious soot damage. You can disagree with my opinions but not with my facts.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:17 pm

Tiga,

Did you run 100K with full, OEM EGR operation? You seem to be saying that you did not find much soot during your teardown. If so, the two of you have no conflict. The weight of the evidence is no soot=no rocker problems.

Keith has pointed out that soot in oil reduction is not just EGR related. You need to have improved F/A ratios and more complete combustion.

I can attest to this from our own experience. We ran over 20K with an IM SII tune and SEGR and the oil stayed opaque black immediately after a change. It was only after adding GDE tunes that the oil stayed clean for 2-3K miles after an oil/filter change.

DOC

Hexus · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:51 pm

tigafila wrote:

Hexus, how were the main and rod bearings on the ones you've disassembled with bad rockers and obvious soot damage. You can disagree with my opinions but not with my facts.

I think the main and rod bearings are suspiciously further away from the EGR valve than the Rockers and lifters.

The rockers and lifters see much more heat and soot from the EGR than the main and rod bearings. The oil channels on the top end are suspiciously small as well.

By your logic if I have chapped lips, I must have a chapped anus as well, because "Hey, it's all the same blood pumping through me, right?"

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:39 pm

Hexus wrote:

By your logic if I have chapped lips, I must have a chapped anus as well, because "Hey, it's all the same blood pumping through me, right?"

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:45 pm

Lol. Thing is he's using a very good oil. Maybe also w gde tune. But also I can vouch on the soot. I saw my rockers.

Side note, a hot'n'spicey Mexican food can result in both chapped lips and issues with exhaust, lol.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:54 pm

+1 on soot. I pre-emptively changed the rockers and was very glad that I did; the soot buildup was incredible in the EGR piping and the intake manifold, and the rockers were very worn, or some of them were.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:53 pm

I missed that he has been running ORM from purchase. This is not nearly as effective as once thought, but still reduces EGR operation, significantly. Bottom line, if he has been running with little soot in his oil, his rockers/lifters are likely to be OK.

Personally, I have a hard time believing that ANY oil can eliminate the negative effects of running continuously with huge quantities of soot in it. Clearly, TD specific oils handle it a little better, but just a little.

DOC

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:13 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

I missed that he has been running ORM from purchase. This is not nearly as effective as once thought, but still reduces EGR

Doc: can you explain this?

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:13 pm

If an EGR delete is bypassing EPA rules, are all current/ future diesels going to face the same potential death? What are auto manufactures doing to combat the negative effecta of soot in oil?

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:50 pm

I forget who figured this out, but the ORM only reduces EGR operation. It does not eliminate it as it was once thought to.

DOC

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:01 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

I forget who figured this out, but the ORM only reduces EGR operation. It does not eliminate it as it was once thought to.

DOC

I thought the ORM eliminated EGR. I also thought the GDE reduced it to only opening a split second upon letting off the accelerator.

Auberon · **Posted:** Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:14 am

These failures intrigue.
I realise unanswerable, but it would be very interesting to know if any of the failed engines were running EGT gauges and operators actually using them. Would answer much.

tigafila · **Posted:** Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:47 am

Hexus wrote: "I think the main and rod bearings are suspiciously further away from the EGR valve than the Rockers and lifters."
You didn't answer my question, and what does the distance from the main and rod bearings to the rockers and lifters have to do with it?

"The rockers and lifters see much more heat and soot from the EGR than the main and rod bearings. The oil channels on the top end are suspiciously small as well."
How exactly does the heat and soot travel from the EGR to the rockers and lifters? How does the heat and soot affect the rockers and lifters and not the rod and main bearings?

"By your logic if I have chapped lips, I must have a chapped anus as well, because "Hey, it's all the same blood pumping through me, right?""
Actually by my logic if you have leukemia it wouldn't just affect your lips, your anus is your concern.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:30 am

tigafila wrote:

Hexus wrote: "I think the main and rod bearings are suspiciously further away from the EGR valve than the Rockers and lifters."
You didn't answer my question, and what does the distance from the main and rod bearings to the rockers and lifters have to do with it?

"The rockers and lifters see much more heat and soot from the EGR than the main and rod bearings. The oil channels on the top end are suspiciously small as well."
How exactly does the heat and soot travel from the EGR to the rockers and lifters? How does the heat and soot affect the rockers and lifters and not the rod and main bearings?

"By your logic if I have chapped lips, I must have a chapped anus as well, because "Hey, it's all the same blood pumping through me, right?""
Actually by my logic if you have leukemia it wouldn't just affect your lips, your anus is your concern.

The pathway for combustion/EGR soot should be down the cylinder walls, by way of blow-by,
into the crankcase oil, then up the all the surfaces requiring lubrication.
(unless there is another pathway I am not aware of)

I suspect that rod/main bearings may be better suited for handling soot and other contaminants.
The bearings in the rocker arms may be of poor quality or poorly engineered. Contaminants in
the oil build up on the bearings and the constant friction causes bearing failure.

Crankshaft bearings are continually fed oil by direct pressure. Oil is continually being pushed through
the bearing surfaces. The only thing that keeps the crankshaft journal from
touching the bearing surface is oil pressure.

Every rocker arm I have ever seen, whether roller bearing or not, uses splash lubrication.
There is no direct oil pressure on those bearings.

Hexus · **Posted:** Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:46 am

Here is my response:

I'm not going to do a lesson on Thermodynamics but if you don't understand them then my statement fell upon deaf ears. Heat Rises or goes to what is colder. It would make sense then that since the outside air is colder than the entirety of the engine that the heat would radiate at a very close proximity, right?

Most of the Rocker/Lifter failures that I've seen (Remember, I've personally seen 3), were at #3 which is right there by the FCV. (Shocker, right?)

Where in that system is the LEAST amount of oil? That would be the point furthest away from the reservoir, right? Where is that? I also already mentioned the smaller oil pathways, plus we're talking about smaller bearings inside the rockers so smaller particulates would cause them to fail faster/be more effected by foreign contaminants of a smaller size.

Splash lubrication up top is ineffective, coupled with the thoughts and feelings of many here who think the metal used on the initial rockers/lifters may have been a substandard caliber material as well.

So as I said initially, I see your argument, and while it has some redeeming points, I disagree with it entirely.

That's why.

CRD rocker arm wear...more info

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