Starting to feel Psychic - I have so much ESP!

WhiteRider · **Posted:** Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:49 pm

Well, just forked out the cash for a 2nd alignment and still no difference in ESP triggering unnecessarily. As per the norm, 95% of the time on an easy left turn, without any excessive speed. :furious:

It didn't start acting up until about a month or two after having done the install, has never made any funny sounds, and drives great - even better than stock! I would probably be ok just hitting the ESP kill button on the dash, but if I'm wheelin and and I press the button it makes no difference anyhow. In fact, there has been a few times it almost put me in a bit of a jam due to the loss in power to my wheels.

I have spent several hours scouring the forums, doing online searches, and so on. Still don't feel as though I have a definitive answer. Has anybody here had this happen and actually manage to solve it? What is the next step from here?

I realize this has its own thread, but it seems as though that has long since been hijacked by programmer talk.

Gageraid · **Posted:** Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:23 am

I won't be much help, but who installed the lift?

WhiteRider · **Posted:** Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:26 pm

I did. It was the Tommudd/JBA 3.5" econo lift with JBA UCA's, .500" Clevis Spacer. "Standard" front coils, Ironman shocks, Bilstein's in the rear. Followed to a tee, part 1 & 2 of the instructions that I dug up on this forum.

Only part of the install that raised questions for me was when I was assembling the coils over the shocks. It was unclear if the coils were driver side and passenger side specific, and if it mattered how the iso's/coils ended up in relation to the vehicle. Example: Should the "end" of the coils be facing towards the front, rear, inside, or outside? Also, in hindsight, I wish I had ordered the HD springs.

The problem didn't start until well after the install, so I am pretty sure the install itself is good and isn't the direct problem. At this point, the info/posts I have read point to:

- Faulty Steering Angle Sensor - (I have yet to determine the best way to "test" if this is the case, or what causes the SAS to fail.)
- Faulty ABS Body Harness - (Not sure about this one, ...but I have read a few posts that have mention of this as a source of ESP lights.)
- A plastic shroud on the steering column that "creeps" down into the engine compartment - (Pretty sure these posts were regarding pre-2008 libs, so not sure if this has been a problem with KK's or not.)

The interesting (or aggravating, depending on how you look at it) thing is, the slower I take a left hand turn, the more likely it is for the ESP/ABS to trigger.

lfhoward · **Posted:** Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:18 pm

I have a bit of esp, but not as much as you. I wonder if JBA's Upper control arms are on the right sides. They aren't identical, so there is a specific right and left. Just something to verify. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=794170#p794170

WhiteRider · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:41 am

Definitely have the UCA's in the right way. Bent arm pointing towards the front of the Jeep. I did lower the vehicle before tightening, but did not jump up and down on it before tightening.

Perhaps I exaggerated a little when I made the subject title for this topic? There is one left turn I make every morning on my way to work that the ESP triggers almost every time, but other than that my "guess-timate" would be:

When I come to a full stop, then turn left - 12% chance of ESP.
If I make a left turn while in motion - 6% chance of ESP.
If I make a left turn while doing Mach5 - 2% chance of ESP.
Right hand turns - 1% chance of ESP (doesn't happen often enough for me to recognize different scenarios).

...by a "bit of esp", what are you experiencing?

Voyager · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:12 am

WhiteRider wrote:

Has anybody here had this happen and actually manage to solve it? What is the next step from here?

Mine did it once I put 245/75's on. My lift itself didn't cause any issues, the larger tires did. My solution? I pulled the fuses. Now I have a few extra idiot lights staring me in the face on the instrument panel, but no more noise when taking a left turn.

Ted15 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:18 am

Take it back to the alignment shop and ask them to reset the clock spring. I'm not sure what that is but mine hardly ever does it anymore, probably only when it's supposed to. Also, is your speedometer calibrated for the new tire diameter? There is a larger difference between left and right rpm's when turning compared to the stock tires assuming you've increased the tire size.
Since I've regeared, I don't think my ECM knows my tire size is different and it's only triggered a couple times. Usually when going over bumps while turning.
The clock spring seemed to be the key before the axles were modified. :2cents:

lfhoward · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:16 am

WhiteRider wrote:

...by a "bit of esp", what are you experiencing?

The driveway to my work has an abrupt uphill grade relative to the street, so when I do a 90 degree turn in and hit the uphill, I get ESP as the front suspension flexes over the bump, one wheel before the other. I find that esp will not engage unless I hit the turn at speed, causing a bit of suspension flex. It will do it coming into that turn from either direction. Otherwise, esp is not really much of an issue. Like on Ted15's jeep, the esp has only began to engage more often since I got the 245/75/16 tires. I had my 4 inch lift for several months before upgrading to larger tires and I could count on one hand how many times esp engaged during that time with the 225's. Now it engages fairly predictably if I do a 90 degree turn and hit a bump, or do it fast enough to have a little body lean in the front.

Gageraid · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:43 am

WhiteRider wrote:

I did. It was the Tommudd/JBA 3.5" econo lift with JBA UCA's, .500" Clevis Spacer. "Standard" front coils, Ironman shocks, Bilstein's in the rear. Followed to a tee, part 1 & 2 of the instructions that I dug up on this forum.

Only part of the install that raised questions for me was when I was assembling the coils over the shocks. It was unclear if the coils were driver side and passenger side specific, and if it mattered how the iso's/coils ended up in relation to the vehicle. Example: Should the "end" of the coils be facing towards the front, rear, inside, or outside? Also, in hindsight, I wish I had ordered the HD springs.

The problem didn't start until well after the install, so I am pretty sure the install itself is good and isn't the direct problem. At this point, the info/posts I have read point to:

- Faulty Steering Angle Sensor - (I have yet to determine the best way to "test" if this is the case, or what causes the SAS to fail.)
- Faulty ABS Body Harness - (Not sure about this one, ...but I have read a few posts that have mention of this as a source of ESP lights.)
- A plastic shroud on the steering column that "creeps" down into the engine compartment - (Pretty sure these posts were regarding pre-2008 libs, so not sure if this has been a problem with KK's or not.)

The interesting (or aggravating, depending on how you look at it) thing is, the slower I take a left hand turn, the more likely it is for the ESP/ABS to trigger.

That plastic shroud piece definitely has moved on me on my steering column. It clicks right back into place. I have a 2008. Check that out, even thought I'm guessing you have already.

I only have the 1.5" Econo lift, but have never had a ESP scenario yet.

WhiteRider · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:27 pm

Ted15 wrote:

Take it back to the alignment shop and ask them to reset the clock spring. I'm not sure what that is but mine hardly ever does it anymore, probably only when it's supposed to. Also, is your speedometer calibrated for the new tire diameter? There is a larger difference between left and right rpm's when turning compared to the stock tires assuming you've increased the tire size.
Since I've regeared, I don't think my ECM knows my tire size is different and it's only triggered a couple times. Usually when going over bumps while turning.
The clock spring seemed to be the key before the axles were modified. :2cents:

My first alignment was done at the stealership the day I finished the lift. I requested them to calibrate the speedo, and my invoice reflects that they did. It is unlikely though that they could have calibrated using the presets for the tires I have on. Not sure if I have seen anybody here still running the 18's? None-the-less, didn't have any esp for about two months.

Before getting the 2nd alignment done at a different place, I went back to dealership and enquired about resetting the clock spring, and the guy looked at me like I was from Mars. The second place I went also said their computer couldn't communicate with my ECM? Of course, I asked beforehand and they claimed theirs could do everything that the dealerships could. -Makes me wonder though, Does the dealership here have StarScan? Perhaps I will swing by the dealership again today and be more persistent.

Scar0 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:36 am

I used to have this on a 25 Mph, gradual, bumpy, right hand turn. Took my rig to the dealership and had them recalibrate the steering angle sensor.
It is not perfect, but is much better. I really have to be going to fast around the same bumpy corner to have it kick in.
It did this after the lift install with OEM tires on it. Then it became worse with the bigger tires (245/70R -17).
I have not had the dealership change the tire size in the computer yet, because now it is much better. I'd say 97% of the time it kicks in when it should, 1% when I'm messing around, and 2% when I really don't want it to. I'm also only sitting at 2.5" lift though...

During the alignment, did they adjust the tie rods on both sides, or on just one to get the steering wheel straight?
On mine they adjusted the right side more then the left.

WhiteRider · **Posted:** Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:02 pm

Scar0 wrote:

I used to have this on a 25 Mph, gradual, bumpy, right hand turn. Took my rig to the dealership and had them recalibrate the steering angle sensor.
It is not perfect, but is much better. I really have to be going to fast around the same bumpy corner to have it kick in.
It did this after the lift install with OEM tires on it. Then it became worse with the bigger tires (245/70R -17).
I have not had the dealership change the tire size in the computer yet, because now it is much better. I'd say 97% of the time it kicks in when it should, 1% when I'm messing around, and 2% when I really don't want it to. I'm also only sitting at 2.5" lift though...

During the alignment, did they adjust the tie rods on both sides, or on just one to get the steering wheel straight?
On mine they adjusted the right side more then the left.

My steering wheel didn't seem as though it wasn't straight to start with. According to the print out of adjustments, it appears as though the largest changes were made on the right side. Seems to have made a little difference, but I will still follow up with dealership to see if they can adjust the clockspring/steering angle sensor. Probably will be stopping in there anyhow to order a differential skid plate this week. :JEEPIN:

Scar0 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:34 am

What they will do is to put it in learn mode with their computer. Then they will drive it is circles and figure 8 patterns. This will allow the system to re-learn the "Center" location of the steering wheel and wheels.
Part of the reason it kicks in is because of the rotational speed differences between the inside wheel and outside wheel during a turn. I'm sure that if you have them set your tire size while they have the computer hooked up, it will also help with this. The problem is, I believe they only have 4 stock programmable sizes to choose from. If my calculations are correct, the 20" wheel option is the largest.

Ted15 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:02 am

Scar0 wrote:

What they will do is to put it in learn mode with their computer. Then they will drive it is circles and figure 8 patterns. This will allow the system to re-learn the "Center" location of the steering wheel and wheels.
Part of the reason it kicks in is because of the rotational speed differences between the inside wheel and outside wheel during a turn. I'm sure that if you have them set your tire size while they have the computer hooked up, it will also help with this. The problem is, I believe they only have 4 stock programmable sizes to choose from. If my calculations are correct, the 20" wheel option is the largest.

It's in there somewhere, the mechanic that did mine said there was some math involved. Not sure what he did but the speedo was correct when he was done.

WhiteRider · **Posted:** Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:56 pm

Scar0 wrote:

What they will do is to put it in learn mode with their computer. Then they will drive it is circles and figure 8 patterns. This will allow the system to re-learn the "Center" location of the steering wheel and wheels.
Part of the reason it kicks in is because of the rotational speed differences between the inside wheel and outside wheel during a turn. I'm sure that if you have them set your tire size while they have the computer hooked up, it will also help with this. The problem is, I believe they only have 4 stock programmable sizes to choose from. If my calculations are correct, the 20" wheel option is the largest.

Thanks guys, every little bit of insight brings me a little closer to understanding (and being able to explain) what I think needs to be done. When I installed the lift, first thing I did was take it to the dealership for the alignment. I asked that they set the tire size in the computer, as close as possible during the alignment. So I think that part has already been done, but definitely not the SAS calibration.

I have been back to the dealership a few times now, ordering skid plates, getting quote for re-gear, etc. So each time I show up there, they get a little more friendly and receptive to the fact that I'm actually spending a little time doing research before showing up with off-the-wall requests. The GM of the dealership even invited me to a Jeep event he puts on. I told him the cost of labour to install the gears and lockers needed to come down first. We both laughed.

Next trip to the dealership, I will mention the "LEARN MODE" and see what they say.

sil10kk · **Posted:** Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:21 pm

WhiteRider - (or anyone else) where did you find the instructions for the Econo 3.5" lift? I've been searching but still can't find them. I'm putting the lift on in the next couple days and would love to have them in case I run into something I'm not expecting. Got a set of GY Duratracs to go with it, it's gonna be a good X-mas this year! Hope everyone else has a great one too!

Bmxer524 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:29 pm

Look in the KK tech section. There's a right up on the JBA 2.5" lift by scaro. I think digger might have posted it for him I don't remember. Honestly it's pretty much the same thing. It's a very simple lift to install.

sil10kk · **Posted:** Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:33 pm

Thanks, I appreciate it, found the instructions. I'll be getting it done over the next couple days and throw some pics up after. Everyone have a Merry Christmas!

Bmxer524 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:22 pm

Same to you! And I'm assuming its the Tommudd lift? Not sure exactly how it rides, since I have an OME/Bilstein lift, but you'll love the lifted look. I'm assuming the ride will be great as well, after all Tom did help with what works lol.

Starting to feel Psychic - I have so much ESP!

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